All the Josh Smith hate

[High 5]

Defensively, he'd be better. But, we already have Smith there who is a much better defender.

Regardless, offensively he just doesn't have the post game to be more effective at the 4. That's not to say that he won't eventually, but he doesn't now.

I'm not saying he should play in Smith's position (the center would still spend most of the time on Horford), but Smith is NOT a better defender. Especially when Smith isn't blocking shots. Horford is an excellent defender on people his size or smaller.

Horford struggles against bigger players. He would most definitely do better at the 4. There's really no argument against that.

[betta1]

I see ZERO reason to even consider breaking apart one of the most athletic, energetic, exciting young front court tandems for years to come. Smith and Horford are both special players. Looking just a hair beyond the stats will show that.

To me you don't trade guys like that unless you're getting an equally special guy back. Out of position? Even if that were true and such a bad thing, you find ways to keep the guys and work around it.

Marvin, on the other hand, may be a nice trade piece. Even if he keeps improving, I don't think there's anything he's shown us that makes anyone feel he's going to be more than a solid contributer. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that. But if we could use him and, say, a pick/expiring to land us a tall euro type (Bargs or Gasol type of guys come to mind) that can play in the perimeter and rebound then things get a little more interesting. I'm not saying that there's a trade that I have in mind pe se, but our lineup could be very dangerous with a big euro type 3 like that.

Bibby
JJ
Bargnani (?)
Smoove
Horford

That team doesn't seem undersized at all anymore, even if our euro SF isn't a major contributor on D. We would still need a defensive big off the bench for certain situations and matchup needs, but I would much prefer that to our current assemblage.

[NDaATL]

Smith is NOT a better defender. Especially when Smith isn't blocking shots. Horford is an excellent defender on people his size or smaller.

Wow, this is a ridiculous statement. There is no possible stat, rating, or video proof that would validate this one. Smith has had one of the best defensive +/- in the NBA the past 2 years, is one of the best help defenders in the NBA and is an above average man defender.

Horford is average to above average in man defense, and probably below average helpside. On help D he is CONSTANTLY out of position and rarely rotates quick enough. I honestly don't know how you could make a statement like that.

Horford attempted to guard KG last year during the season and got destroyed. Smith guarded him in the playoffs and KG had his worst shooting series of the entire postseason.

Horford struggles against bigger players. He would most definitely do better at the 4. There's really no argument against that.

Defensively, I agree. Offensively, he doesn't have the post game. He would not just magically start scoring more as the evidence has proven. Just because the guy guarding him would be 2 inches shorter doesn't mean he's going to start scoring on them. Horford's moves are the hook and the turnaround fade, neither of which are effective. Sometimes he gets great mismatches and still can't score on them. He's just not a good offensive player, having a guy 2 inches shorter will not help that.

[High 5]

Smith can leap better than Horford can. So he guards longer players better. KG isn't your typical player, though. Horford is a more dependable defender man-to-man in the post and on the perimeter. We'll just agree to disagree. I just have no doubt in my mind that if you put a reliable (not an All Star or anything) ~7 footer next to Horford his offense and defense would flourish in a year or two.

But that won't happen and I'm more than content with our frontcourt.

[NDaATL]

Smith can leap better than Horford can. So he guards longer players better. KG isn't your typical player, though. Horford is a more dependable defender man-to-man in the post and on the perimeter. We'll just agree to disagree. I just have no doubt in my mind that if you put a reliable (not an All Star or anything) ~7 footer next to Horford his offense and defense would flourish in a year or two.

But that won't happen and I'm more than content with our frontcourt.

Someone did a huge stat thread on Smith last year and only like one PF in the entire NBA averaged more ppg against the Hawks than their season average. I think it was Dirk. It was a ridiculous stat.

I guess as a man defender it is debateable. But as a help defender it isn't close. I'm not going to let 15 of Smith's games after an ankle injury of not blocking shots deter from 4 years of elite shotblocking. It will return, I've sprained my ankle badly at least 5 times and even after you're able to play it's sore as hell for a WHILE, as in months, especially when you keep playing on it. Plus, while it's sore, it's in the back of your mind and you're scared to roll it again, which makes you hesitate on big jumps where lots of feet are around to land on. Remember Smith was averaging almost 3 bpg in the first few games before he went down. I know you remember the season opener against Orlando and he laid out a block party on Dwight.

It's purely opinion that Horford would play better offensively at the 4. And, IMO unwarranted considering his severe lack of a post game. We saw him play at Florida for 3 years and he never had any more post moves then than he does now. He wasn't a reliable "give it to him" player on the block then either. Regardless If he improves his post game he can still be very good at the 5.

[Rod700]

I still don't understand this assertion. Al didn't play any better when Smith was out and he started at PF for 12 games. He also plays plenty of PF each night when Smith is on the bench.

Bottom line, he must improve his post game if he ever wants to be able to be a respectable scorer, it doesn't matter if he's playing PF or Center at this point.

Horford's few minutes as the "PF" are when Zaza is next to him. Horford was still basically the center while Smith was out.

No he wasn't, because he was being guarded by PFs, with whom everyone says Horford matches up much better, and he wasn't better. Bottom line, he couldn't be a reliable scorer in that situation either.

It's obvious that he must improve his post game tremendously before he'll be a goto post guy, regardless of what position he plays.

NDaATL: I don't know why people always think of offensive production when they think of a player being successful. I'm thinking of the teams' need for a center that can help guard players like Dwight Howard, and Yao Ming. I do think that Horford will be able to develop his offensive skills more easily at PF where he is of similar height and greater strength than his counterparts, but my first concern is defensive mismatches when Horford is playing defense at center.

[NDaATL]

NDaATL: I don't know why people always think of offensive production when they think of a player being successful. I'm thinking of the teams' need for a center that can help guard players like Dwight Howard, and Yao Ming. I do think that Horford will be able to develop his offensive skills more easily at PF where he is of similar height and greater strength than his counterparts, but my first concern is defensive mismatches when Horford is playing defense at center.

I agree completely. I am huge on defense. That is why I said Horford would benefit DEFENSIVELY from playing PF, but not offensively because he doesn't have a post game. I'm not saying it will never happen though, I'm a huge Horford fan, he's only 22 and in his 2nd season and I still think he'll improve. But as of right now, his offensive production wouldn't increase at the PF IMO. We saw him play PF plenty when Smith went out and we desperately needed offense.

But, we definitely need a backup center who is big, can play D and rebound for the tough matchups you mentioned. We've been talking about that for a while. Problem is, those guys aren't easy to find or obtain.

[tontoz]

Smith can leap better than Horford can. So he guards longer players better. KG isn't your typical player, though. Horford is a more dependable defender man-to-man in the post and on the perimeter. We'll just agree to disagree. I just have no doubt in my mind that if you put a reliable (not an All Star or anything) ~7 footer next to Horford his offense and defense would flourish in a year or two.

But that won't happen and I'm more than content with our frontcourt.

Someone did a huge stat thread on Smith last year and only like one PF in the entire NBA averaged more ppg against the Hawks than their season average. I think it was Dirk. It was a ridiculous stat.

That was me. It was for the 06/07 season, before Horford got here.

I looked at all the starting 4s in the league who played at least 2 games against the Hawks. Of all those players only 2, Dirk and Duncan, averaged 2 ppg or more above their season average against the Hawks. Keep in mind that the Hawks team defense was much worse then than it is now.

For example during the 06-07 season Bosh averaged 22.6 on the season but only 18.8 against the Hawks.

When you consider the other frontcourt players on the Hawks i think that speaks pretty well to Smith's man D.

[Rod700]

I agree completely. I am huge on defense. That is why I said Horford would benefit DEFENSIVELY from playing PF, but not offensively because he doesn't have a post game. I'm not saying it will never happen though, I'm a huge Horford fan, he's only 22 and in his 2nd season and I still think he'll improve. But as of right now, his offensive production wouldn't increase at the PF IMO. We saw him play PF plenty when Smith went out and we desperately needed offense.

But, we definitely need a backup center who is big, can play D and rebound for the tough matchups you mentioned. We've been talking about that for a while. Problem is, those guys aren't easy to find or obtain.

Cool. I understand that and agree as well. We need a big that can play D and rebound but they are scarce. I brought up signing Chris Anderson for cheap back when he was just getting back into the league, and that wasn't recieved well on this board. Now, given our current options, we might be stuck with taking a chance on someone like Steven Hunter, and offering him a two year deal to opt out with his ETO since his injuries are a big question mark and he would likely want the job security. I'm basing that on him being back and playing before the season is out though.

[conleyorbust]

Defensively, he'd be better. But, we already have Smith there who is a much better defender.

Regardless, offensively he just doesn't have the post game to be more effective at the 4. That's not to say that he won't eventually, but he doesn't now.

I'm not saying he should play in Smith's position (the center would still spend most of the time on Horford), but Smith is NOT a better defender. Especially when Smith isn't blocking shots. Horford is an excellent defender on people his size or smaller.

Horford struggles against bigger players. He would most definitely do better at the 4. There's really no argument against that.

The only problem is that it isn't backed up by the numbers which is all you have to go by on something like defense.

The team does much better defensively when Smith is on the court and the results with Horford are mixed at best. That obviously doesn't take into account what happens if Horford were playing at the 4 full time, but its hard to say that a guy who doesn't really impact the game one way or another on D is a better defender than a guy who has a HUGE impact, you feel me?