Feb. 7: LAC @ Atlanta

[Harry10]

i wasn't a Horford fan from the start, but i have to admit he is alot better player than i thought he would be. Yi and Brandon Wright have better numbers than Al, but Al brings an attitude and confidence to the team that doesn't show up in the stats and that Basketball novice don't understand.

[killbuckner]

I don't think that anyone has a problem if you say that Horford is far more valuable than Yi or Brandon Wright than the numbers indicate. I just have a problem with it when people try and Compare Horford to a Boozer or Elton Brand.

[tontoz]

Parson- just out of curiosity, who do you consider to be a fair comparison?

*crickets*

[parson]

kill, you ARE a C's fan, look at how offended you get when we speak unkindly of their players. You'd much, much rather insult Hawks' players. You moved here, but you grew up a BOS fan; have I got that about right?

And for the both of you, when you demand that I name a player that Horford can be compared to, are you seriously asking me to make the stupid mistake of creating MY OWN STRAWMAN for y'all to debate? Y'all must be the kings of straw, 'cuz that's y'all's favorite approach to debate.

As for crickets, I'm STILL waiting on y'all to name ONE player Woodson's coached-up. Matter-of-fact, my actual question was for y'all to name ONE SKILL Woodson's players have added (I've already mentioned Marvin's 3pt. shot). You're pointing at the production of players like Marvin and, now, Horford, when I keep saying I don't like the system they're in -- the system that affects powerfully their production.

Why can't y'all discuss Horford's talent ... or athleticism ... or Dumars' comments ... or those of a # of other NBA vets?

My weakness (when I display one) is that I insist on basing my understanding of these players on my knowledge of the game of basketball. Your weakness is y'all insist on an understanding that is based on statistics, as if the stat sheet tells everything. If y'all can't see the talent in Marvin Williams or Horford or even Acie, what are you watching?

[tontoz]

Why can't y'all discuss Horford's talent ... or athleticism

Horford is an ok stand still midrange jump shooter that hasn't shown any 1 on 1 moves worth mentioning. His post game is lame and he can't (or won't) beat lumbering stiffs off the dribble. he is a better than average athlete but rarely uses this to his advantage on offense.

He ranks 29th in rebounding ratio among centers (behind both Perkins and Zaza).

He is a better than average team defender but struggles against big post players due to his lack of size.

That is the reality of Horfords game.

[JoshB914]

Maybe we should turn this into a different thread?

We don't insist on stats, Parson. I insist on what I see on the floor. I can't go off of what guys look like in practice because I don't see it. I can't go off of what kind of "talent" they have because there are A TON of players in the NBA that have talent and don't use it to the best of their abilities. I've noticed you like to talk about talent in your posts, everyone in the NBA is talented. There are plenty of guys with massive amounts of talent that didn't reach their potential. And no, it's not the coach's fault.

Why is it that any time one of us says something negative about our players we have to go through a two-page debate about it? Al Horford is a role player and he has not shown the ability on the floor to do more than that. If you get to see him behind close doors and have some inside info then please share, but otherwise I can only base my opinion off of what I see in games. And what I see in Al is a fearless leader with championship-style swagger, that provides solid defense and rebounding, and won't hurt you on offense and has a knack for hitting the big shot.

That being said, I have NEVER seen anything on the floor to prove to me that Al can be a CONSISTENT scorer and I only miss a handful of Hawks games every year.

If the players on our team were anywhere close to what you claim, then we would be at the top of the EC right now. There is an OBVIOUS gap in players b/w us and teams like Boston, LAL, S.A. etc. The players we have simply aren't good enough to compete at that level every night!

[parson]

'toz, would you say he's one of the fastest centers in the NBA?

Would you say he's very strong for his age -- with the probability of greater strength later? See, as Wes Unseld showed, you can overcome size when you get stronger.

Would you say he's one of the smartest centers in the NBA? Wouldn't you say he shows great attitude and persistence?

What ball movement do you think we have that you're basing your complaints about Horford's lack of 1 on 1 moves? When do we pound the ball down low to him? The only "moves" our offense allows is while flashing in from the perimeter. Do you want Horford on the perimeter, standing there beside Smoove?

Your "reality" is based on those #s you've noticed; what does your EYE tell you?

[JoshB914]

I know I'm a little late into this debate, but my eye tells me that whenever we get Al the ball on the block, it usually doesn't result in points.

We went to Al constantly when Smoove was hurt and he didn't do much of anything offensively. I love the guy, but he is no star.

[killbuckner]

I have never been a celtics fan. Period. I find it so funny that for so long you continue to think that about me so I have let you continue to think it but no- this is just one more thing you have flat made up in your own little dreamworld and it has no basis in reality.

I think you are flat nuts if you don't think that Joe Johnson has improved since coming to the Hawks. I mean you have such blinders on that you can't even admit that?

And you can't come up with a comparison for Horford because you are so disconnected from reality that you won't be able to pick anyone even close to reasonable. I'm sure you even tried but when you couldn't get past Malone, Boozer, and Brand you gave up because you know we would openly mock you for it. Horford is a defense/rebounding center who doesn't provide much on offense. Someday you will be OK with that and you will stop thinking it means we are calling him a bust to say it.

Its OK to say that Dale Davis was a really good player.

[tontoz]

'toz, would you say he's one of the fastest centers in the NBA?

He is one of the fastest but it doesn't matter. He could be faster than Bolt and it wouldn't matter. When he gets the ball at the top of the key all he does is stand there with his elbows out looking for someone to pass to. If he never drives what good is being fast?

Would you say he's very strong for his age -- with the probability of greater strength later? See, as Wes Unseld showed, you can overcome size when you get stronger.

Horfords strength is nothing special for an interior player. And it isn't like he just turned pro out of HS either. He is 22.

Very poor reference. Comparing Unselds strength to Horford is laughable. I grew up a Bullets fan.

Now i know why you are reluctant to make comparisons.

Would you say he's one of the smartest centers in the NBA?

Definitely not. I couldn't even count how many times a teamate has led him with a pass expecting him to roll to the basket only to find Horford backing up. He has no sense of what to do on offense. No matter how weak his defender is he refuses to try to take advantage of him.

His IQ on offense is definitely below average.

What ball movement do you think we have that you're basing your complaints about Horford's lack of 1 on 1 moves? When do we pound the ball down low to him? The only "moves" our offense allows is while flashing in from the perimeter. Do you want Horford on the perimeter, standing there beside Smoove?

Your "reality" is based on those #s you've noticed; what does your EYE tell you?

My eye tells me his post game is lame. When he tries to post guys up he either;

-passes back out even though he is never doubled.
-turns it over (traveling is his specialty)
-throws up an off balance jump hook or a weak fadeaway, both of which he isn't good at.

I think it would snow in Death Valley if he ever did an up and under move. it wouldn't kill him to throw up a fake once in awhile but he never does which goes back to his lack of BBall IQ.

When he catches the ball 15-18 feet from the rim with his man playing way off him he just sits there like a stooge waiting for someone to pass to. Grow a pair and DO SOMETHING with the ball. He routinely gets defended by the weakest defenders on the opposing teams and yet he doesn't score for crap.

[killbuckner]

Parson- what kind of defenders do you SEE horford consistently take advantage of? Or are you under the impression that Horford is never defended by poor defenders?

[parson]

I have never been a celtics fan. Period. I find it so funny that for so long you continue to think that about me so I have let you continue to think it but no- this is just one more thing you have flat made up in your own little dreamworld and it has no basis in reality.

Fair enough. Since I can't go back and quote those times you've talked to me about Boston, I'll just drop it.

I think you are flat nuts if you don't think that Joe Johnson has improved since coming to the Hawks. I mean you have such blinders on that you can't even admit that?

What has he added to his game since coming over here? Maybe I'm nuts, but you have a reading problem. What skill has Joe added here? See, you can never debate what I've said. You always have to create some false angle? I've very clearly said (and many times) that our players have displayed no new SKILLS in their time with Woodson.

And you can't come up with a comparison for Horford because you are so disconnected from reality that you won't be able to pick anyone even close to reasonable....

Another call for a strawman? Comparisons are for scouts to approximate a player's ceiling. No more than that. Being "disconnected from reality" comes from such false perspectives, rather than discussing the actual player. Maybe you might want to ask yourself why you won't debate HORFORD: why you continually want to debate SOME OTHER PLAYER.

[parson]

He is one of the fastest but it doesn't matter.

Great; "it doesn't matter. "

If he never drives what good is being fast?

Asked and answered. When does our offense let him drive? You're assuming a typical NBA offense when you say that. We play a different offense.

Horfords strength is nothing special for an interior player. And it isn't like he just turned pro out of HS either. He is 22.

There are a lot of NBA veteran observers who are on record as disagreeing with you.

Very poor reference. Comparing Unselds strength to Horford is laughable. I grew up a Bullets fan. Now i know why you are reluctant to make comparisons.

No, now you've demonstrated why I refuse to allow you your strawman argument. NOwhere in my post did I compare Horford to Wes Unseld. I said Unseld showed that strength could defeat size. You had to twist it into a comparison because, otherwise, you'd have to agree with me. Comparing Unseld's strength to Horford's IS INDEED laughable. YOU did just now, not me.

His IQ on offense is definitely below average.

Just wanted to point this answer out. So now he's stupid, as well? Your appraisal of Horford just keeps going downhill, doesn't it? I guess from now on, you'll have to add some "proof" you've found to condemn his intelligence.

(blah, blahblah, blahblah) He routinely gets defended by the weakest defenders on the opposing teams and yet he doesn't score for crap.

That was Kevin Garnett on him in the playoffs when Horford scored 20 and rebounded 10. They only played Perkins 20 minutes. They took him out and played Powe on Smoove in order to defend Horford with Garnett.

[parson]

Parson- what kind of defenders do you SEE horford consistently take advantage of? Or are you under the impression that Horford is never defended by poor defenders?

kill, he gets 7.8 shots/game. Do the math. In our offense, we stand around and wait for Joe or Bibby to do something. Last night was some of the best ball-movement I've ever seen us do -- and it came against a poor WAS defense. Still, Horford shot 5 times and made 3. Did you SEE him flub any chances?

[tontoz]

Asked and answered. When does our offense let him drive? You're assuming a typical NBA offense when you say that. We play a different offense.

That is flat out dumb. The offense doesn't prevent Smith, Marvin, JJ, Acie, Flip and even Zaza from driving. Horford is preventing Horford from driving.

I could guard Horford when he gets the ball 15-18 feet from the hoop, and i could do it sitting in a chair.

I said Unseld showed that strength could defeat size.

Wrong. Great strength and skill can defeat size. Horford has neither which is why it is a dumb reference.

If Horford was as strong as you claim he wouldn't struggle so badly trying to back guys down.

Just wanted to point this answer out. So now he's stupid, as well? Your appraisal of Horford just keeps going downhill, doesn't it? I guess from now on, you'll have to add some "proof" you've found to condemn his intelligence.

Here is whyere you prove your hypocrisy. You say you want to talk about Horford's game but then you avoid talking about Horford's game.

You asked about Horford's intelligence, asking if he was one of the smartest centers inthe league. Of course you give no examples in his play. When i gave specific examples about his play you completely ignored them and of course gave no examples of your own that show Horford is an intelligent player.

Here is your argument in a nutshell. "Horford is a smart player because i say so." You can give no examples of Horford that display his alleged high IQ and you completely dodge the examples i give that show his lack of IQ.

Instead YOU decide to create a strawman and talk about me personally rather than Horfords game. If Horford had a high IQ he would roll to the basket rather than away from it. If he had a high IQ then he would take advantage of slower defenders. If he had a high IQ he would throw up a fake once in awhile rather than throwing up off balance jump hooks over taller players.

But he doesn't have a high IQ and his lack of BBall IQ shows up every night in his play.

[killbuckner]

Is the ability of Joe Johnson to initiate the offense (seriously pick however many skills you want out of that...) not an improvement since he arrived in Atlanta? I mean somehow in your world Joe has regressed since he has been here. This is a skillset that he never had in Phoenix but you are just so blinded that you will ignore it.

[conleyorbust]

Is the ability of Joe Johnson to initiate the offense (seriously pick however many skills you want out of that...) not an improvement since he arrived in Atlanta? I mean somehow in your world Joe has regressed since he has been here. This is a skillset that he never had in Phoenix but you are just so blinded that you will ignore it.

Well I'll disagree with you completely on this, he HAD this skillset, he just didn't use it because he was in a point guard dominated offense that relied heavily on the pick and roll in the half-court. Joe Johnson very often did handle the ball and initiate the offense but, like most offenses where a wing who isn't Lebron/Kobe dominates the ball, it wasn't as effective as when the Suns were running their primary pick and roll offense.

That being said, as much as I do think we'd be better off running the pick and roll and such with Smith and Horford, its not Woody's fault that Al has limitations. For Al to be a better offensive player he'd have to have more offensive skill.

For Al to get more touches on offense, he'd have to have more ways to score effectively. Hell, Tyson Chandler shot 64% last season, maybe he should have been taking more shots? Unfortunately, Al doesn't have a great post game and he prefers not to take guys off the dribble. Both of which guys like Boozer and Malone did/do, in addition to being coached by a guy who realizes the value of the PnR. Til' Al shows he can do that stuff, he isn't going to get shots.

parson, you are arguing whether its possible for Al to become better. Yes, it definitely is possible. The reason they are bringing up other players is because there aren't many precedents of players of Al's skill level and lack of aggression on offense who have gone on to be significant offensive forces. You mock them for not agreeing that Al Horford is some sort of anomoly in the history of the game... you mock them for believing in facts (numbers) and not in the world of possibility.