No team with JJ as thier best player, will ever compete for

[JoshB914]

^^^ JJ was also sub-par up until the all star break last year. He went through an AWFUL December/January the year before that. Why is everyone so surprised this time around?

I'm not trying to get into a big argument but JJ has never sucked THIS bad for THIS long, ever.

2 years ago JJ had his best scoring season. He started struggling towards the end because of the injury, as evidenced by him sitting out the remainder of the season which was about 25 games.

If I'm not mistaken, Joe shot 40% last season up until the all star break when we acquired Bibby. He was absolutely awful and if we hadn't gotten Bibby who knows what would have happened. The season before that he did have an injury, but I'm just trying to show that Joe goes through a major slump every season. As I said earlier, if you are a star you should help your team when you are on the floor and he has not done that consistently.

I just don't think Joe can handle the pressure of being "the guy" for 82 games. When Joe first came here it was pretty clear that all of his teammates (especially the younger guys) were looking to him. Hell, even Woody handed him the reigns and named him captain in hopes that he would develop into a leader. He has never even come close to that whether it be as a leader or with his performance on the floor.

A lot of our players' inconsistencies are due to Joe not being the player and teammate we need him to be. No one is holding their teammates accountable for their mistakes and that's why we see the exact same miscues night in and night out. Obviously that is not all on Joe, but as our best player he has to bear much of the responsibility for this teams' struggles as a whole.

[conleyorbust]

I just don't think Joe can handle the pressure of being "the guy" for 82 games. When Joe first came here it was pretty clear that all of his teammates (especially the younger guys) were looking to him. Hell, even Woody handed him the reigns and named him captain in hopes that he would develop into a leader. He has never even come close to that whether it be as a leader or with his performance on the floor.

I don't know about this per se. I think that on the whole, he's been fine as a basketball player. I don't know if it was fair to expect him to play like a Lebron/Wade/Kobe type player. As far as "being a leader" I think you either are or you aren't and it was pretty obvious from Joe's past that he was the type of guy that REALLY prefers to keep to himself, if management didn't think it was important enough to account or compensate for that, its their fault.

A lot of our players' inconsistencies are due to Joe not being the player and teammate we need him to be. No one is holding their teammates accountable for their mistakes and that's why we see the exact same miscues night in and night out. Obviously that is not all on Joe, but as our best player he has to bear much of the responsibility for this teams' struggles as a whole.

Its on Joe, but that is the primary responsibility of the coach. If you aren't even going to hold Woody accountable for that, than we can get someone to come in an coach for free and shave a million or so a year off the payroll because from what I read on this board, a coach isn't responsible for developing bball IQ, running plays, choosing styles, managing players based on their health, or apparently motivating them and holding them accountable.

[JoshB914]

Woody does deserve some blame. But I'm talking about Joe here.

When we paid Joe the big bucks the expectation was for him to be the face and leader this organization and surely he knew that. Joe said he wanted to come here and be a part of building something, he didn't seem to realize that building a winning team is about much more than just individual performance.

What frustrates me isn't that Joe doesn't exactly have the personality for a leader, but that he didn't even TRY be one. Never at any point during his time as a Hawk did I ever get the feeling he was willing to deal with that extra pressure. He refused to be vocal, and his idea of holding his teammates accountable was to complain about his supporting cast to the media.

There is no question in my mind that he has greatly hindered the players' development by doing such. They looked to him as a star when we signed him and he gave them nothing. Woody has all but given up on getting the guy to open his mouth and be a better teammate. He used to talk about it all the time, now I think he's just accepted that Joe is simply unwilling to become the type of player we need him to be.

Whether it be his overall performance or the intangibles he has or hasn't displayed, Joe has not lived up to expectations. Perhaps he isn't good enough, and perhaps he isn't cut out to be a leader. But it bothers me that he never even gave it a shot. There are plenty of stars in this league who aren't natural leaders, yet they stepped up to the challenge and did what they could in order to become a better teammate. So why won't Joe?

[NDaATL]

Woody does deserve some blame. But I'm talking about Joe here.

When we paid Joe the big bucks the expectation was for him to be the face and leader this organization and surely he knew that. Joe said he wanted to come here and be a part of building something, he didn't seem to realize that building a winning team is about much more than just individual performance.

What frustrates me isn't that Joe doesn't exactly have the personality for a leader, but that he didn't even TRY be one. Never at any point during his time as a Hawk did I ever get the feeling he was willing to deal with that extra pressure. He refused to be vocal, and his idea of holding his teammates accountable was to complain about his supporting cast to the media.

There is no question in my mind that he has greatly hindered the players' development by doing such. They looked to him as a star when we signed him and he gave them nothing. Woody has all but given up on getting the guy to open his mouth and be a better thttp://www.realgm.com/boards/posting.p ... 271eammate. He used to talk about it all the time, now I think he's just accepted that Joe is simply unwilling to become the type of player we need him to be.

Whether it be his overall performance or the intangibles he has or hasn't displayed, Joe has not lived up to expectations. Perhaps he isn't good enough, and perhaps he isn't cut out to be a leader. But it bothers me that he never even gave it a shot. There are plenty of stars in this league who aren't natural leaders, yet they stepped up to the challenge and did what they could in order to become a better teammate. So why won't Joe?

All of what you say could be said about any non top 10 player in the NBA who is making max money. What has Vince ever done? How about Redd, T-Mac, Pierce (before the addition of 2 HOF players), Ray Allen, Carmelo, Bosh, Jermaine, Amare, Nash, Yao, Kidd, Gilbert, Martin, Butler?

The fact is that to win a championship or become an elite team you have to have either a top 10 player or two great players. We don't have that. The Pistons were the exception and they won because they were one of the greatest defensive teams this decade.

Yes, it would be nice if Joe was a better leader, but that's just not his personality. There are tons of players like that. You can't be something you aren't or it would seem fake and people wouldn't buy it.

To start things off, we need to replace Woodson and get someone to better motivate this team, and maybe actually install an offense. Last night when it was ONLY the second quarter and we were only down about 10 points, Woodson was sitting in his chair shaking his head with his hand on his forehead. Not laying in to the players, not designing something to help us stop Utah's actual "structured" offense. He sat there and pouted, what do you think the players are going to do if the coach gives up that early?

[NDaATL]

I just don't think Joe can handle the pressure of being "the guy" for 82 games.

Of course he can't. Is that even a bad thing? Superstars win big, JJ isn't one. We know that.

Let's look at the title winner's best player every season dating back 20 years, excluding the Pistons since they were the exception and one of the greatest defensive teams ever.

KG/Pierce/Allen
Duncan (x4)
Wade/Shaq
Shaq/Kobe (x3)
Jordan (x6)
Hakeem (x2)
Isiah

Bird/Magic won a ton in the 80s and 90s, and they had great supporting casts.

JJ is clearly nowhere near the level of player of these guys, and we shouldn't expect him to be. He is at least as good as Ray, but he doesn't have a Pierce and KG on his team.

Weren't you the one who says we are about where you expected us to be in terms of record? But now you're bashing JJ because of it? This is why I disagreed, because JJ could DEFINITELY play better and we could definitely get better coaching. All we do is run ISO's, and it's not only for JJ. Whoever takes the shot either is running an ISO or received a pass from the player who ran an ISO. Our offense is just sickening to watch. Last night against Utah we were TRYING to play defense but we clearly weren't prepared to defend Utah's structured offense. We were getting screened all over the floor and leaving players wide open. I thought Woodson was a defensive coach? It was like we weren't prepared at ALL for that offense.

[D21]

...
When we paid Joe the big bucks the expectation was for him to be the face and leader this organization and surely he knew that...

But everybody should also know that he's nearly on the same level than Ray Allen, and that you need 3 guys like that if you wan to be a contender, at least two.
At this moment, ASG has not bring any player being at this level.
Bibby instantly made an impact, a big impact while he's not a good defender, so it shows how a good player was needed at this position.
We now need one with the same level on the C position, and have two possibilities: add one good big, with Bibby's level (Brad Miller would have be that kind of player) without losing the core on both PF and C (Horford and Smith), or try to get a big on the same level than Joe, a guy like Bosh, a the cost of losing at least one of the core player.

But if we had to trade for Bosh, no way we have to include Joe, it would like not doing anything.
And I am not sure I would give two of Horford/Smith/Marvin, I would prefer one of these three + Law + two first round pick than that.
Maybe I would do Horford + Smith if we can get something with Bosh (or any C/PF of this level), but I would not trade Marvin since it would create a big hole in the SF position, even if that position is easiest to fill.

[JoshB914]

I think you're missing my point. I agree with you that Joe is not an elite player or a natural leader (although many have disagreed with that). What bothers me is that he never even tried to become either, and doing that hurt the rest of the team. We pay him like a top ten player, I'd like to have seen him take some of the responsibility that come with those kind of expectations. We also anointed him as the face and leader of the franchise when we signed him (Woody slapping the captaincy on a guy that didn't even speak on the floor is a good example of that), and he said he was excited about taking on that role and building the franchise.

When Joe came to Atlanta everyone was expecting him to lead this team and he knew that. But it's clear that he doesn't work with or communicate with his teammates on and off the floor. The other players responded accordingly. They all want to win just like Joe, they all play hard every night Joe, but also just like Joe they aren't smart players who don't make the players around them better. The only difference is that Joe is a better player than anyone else, so he can usually get away with it.

The players clearly looked to Joe, and unfortunately they followed a guy that didn't want to lead. I understand that is a lot of pressure for Joe to be under, but that is why we signed him, that is why he said he wanted to come here. But he has NEVER shown the desire to be that kind of player. And that is what bothers me.

I am fine with Joe as a player. It's his attitude that I have always had an issue with.

[conleyorbust]

...
When we paid Joe the big bucks the expectation was for him to be the face and leader this organization and surely he knew that...

But everybody should also know that he's nearly on the same level than Ray Allen, and that you need 3 guys like that if you wan to be a contender, at least two.
At this moment, ASG has not bring any player being at this level.
Bibby instantly made an impact, a big impact while he's not a good defender, so it shows how a good player was needed at this position.
We now need one with the same level on the C position, and have two possibilities: add one good big, with Bibby's level (Brad Miller would have be that kind of player) without losing the core on both PF and C (Horford and Smith), or try to get a big on the same level than Joe, a guy like Bosh, a the cost of losing at least one of the core player.

But if we had to trade for Bosh, no way we have to include Joe, it would like not doing anything.
And I am not sure I would give two of Horford/Smith/Marvin, I would prefer one of these three + Law + two first round pick than that.
Maybe I would do Horford + Smith if we can get something with Bosh (or any C/PF of this level), but I would not trade Marvin since it would create a big hole in the SF position, even if that position is easiest to fill.

Well, like I said in the other thread, I'd be fine trading Joe for Bosh as I've always thought Bosh was better... but we'd need to swing someone else for a ball-handling wing.

I'd do Josh+Al+Speedy+our pick for Bosh+Jose+their pick (with VERY light protection). That would allow us to release Bibby but we'd need to get a big man either with our (Raptors) pick (Thabeet/Mullens) or in FA. Or we could snag a quality wing in the draft and try to move Marvin for a big man.

Jose/Acie
Joe/Flip
Wing/Mo
Bosh/backup big
Random Big/backup big

Would be the core. The big would have to be a nasty defender though because the rest of the lineup is average to weak on D.

[NDaATL]

and he said he was excited about taking on that role and building the franchise.

What was he supposed to say? "No, I don't want to lead the team"? Tim Duncan isn't exactly a guy that gets on teammates either.

But it's clear that he doesn't work with or communicate with his teammates on and off the floor.

How do you know what goes on off the floor? When they interviewed Bibby and asked him about JJ, Bibby said Joe is much louder than everyone thinks he is. How do you know what goes on in the locker room?

Do you remember the quotes of all the Hawks when that article from a national writer questioned JJ's leadership? They were dumbfounded. Saying things like "What? That's news to me, I can't even believe someone would even suggest that."

You just don't like Joe. You have always bashed him. You want him to be something he's not. He's an all-star and a good player but you want more. He's a good player but he's not a LeBron esque vocal leader. Most players aren't.

[JoshB914]

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but I just want to clarify my point.

As I explained earlier, we play hard just like Joe and want to win, but we are a dumb team that lacks intangibles required to be a consistent winner. Whether we like it or not, the team looked to Joe for guidance and leadership from day one, and unfortunately they followed the wrong guy down the wrong path.

I'll repeat myself here: I understand Joe is not a natural leader. But when he was brought in here he was expected to become one. Who else was going to head up the franchise? T Lue? A teenager in Josh Smith or Marvin Williams? Whether you like it or not, our players were looking to the guy making the big $$$ for guidance and he provided none. If Joe wanted to be a star and franchise player then he should have been willing to take on that extra pressure.

There are PLENTY of guys who developed leadership skills even if they didn't exactly want to. And why did they do it? Because they knew it would help their team. My opinion is that Joe never showed the desire to do that for those around him. I like the guy as a player, not as a teammate.

Just as an aisde, you mention Tim Duncan and I'm not sure why? There might not be a better leader in the entire league. And if you watch the way the Spurs play, he has clearly had a great effect on their attitude as a team and they have won titles because of that. Duncan and the Spurs are a perfect example of a team taking on the personality of their leaders, and they have won championships because of that. The Spurs are a textbook example of what great leadership from your great players can do for a team, while we are an example of where a lack of leadership from your great players will get you.

[NDaATL]

Tim Duncan is not the guy that you are trying to tell Joe to be. Duncan is a quiet guy who constantly argues with the refs. He doesn't get in his players faces and he doesn't constantly tell them what to do and where to be. The leader of that team is Popovich.

You say all those things about Joe but there are tons of other good players who aren't leaders either. Look at T-mac, Iverson, Vince, Dirk, Redd, Jermaine (when he was great), none of those guy have ever been good leaders and they are/were all more talented than Joe. It's very rare that a great player is also a great leader, that's what makes stars.

Whether you like it or not, our players were looking to the guy making the big $$$ for guidance and he provided none.

Again, you have no clue what goes on behind the scenes. Like I said in an earlier quote, when his leadership was questioned by that national writer not 2 months ago, all of the players defended Joe all the way. Their comments indicated they were dumbfounded, saying things like "That's just ridiculous, I can't believe someone would even suggest that." Bibby recently said Joe is much louder than everyone thinks he is when talking with the NBATV guys.

[JoshB914]

How can you tell me "what do you expect Joe to say" when he was questioned about being the leader of this franchise when he signed, yet you take the words of the players saying Joe is a good leader as gospel?

I look at that list of players you wrote and they have all taken major criticism for their lack of leadership ability and bad attitude, and deservedly so in many cases. What is wrong with me saying the same thing about Joe? Interestingly none of them have won any titles either.

And if you don't think Duncan is a leader I don't know what to say. I remember him calling the ENTIRE TEAM around him to give a pep talk during that epic game 1 against Phoenix last season. They all gathered around him and listened, you can't tell me that is not a leader just because he is mild-mannered on the floor. There are few players in the league that command that type of respect from their teammates.

[NDaATL]

How can you tell me "what do you expect Joe to say" when he was questioned about being the leader of this franchise when he signed, yet you take the words of the players saying Joe is a good leader as gospel?

No, I was simply saying that when he was asked that question, he can't say "No, I'm not a leader and dont want to be". Everybody knows that players are taught to answer questions quickly and positively and not give much information. In most interviews (unless it's about a specific incident), nothing is said that means anything.

I look at that list of players you wrote and they have all taken major criticism for their lack of leadership ability and bad attitude, and deservedly so in many cases. What is wrong with me saying the same thing about Joe? Interestingly none of them have won any titles either.

My point exactly. It is extremely RARE that you find a great player who is also a great leader. That's just a fact. My point is that you are bashing Joe for something that most good players also don't have. Again, I wish Joe was a better leader on the court also, but he's not. Most players aren't. But it's not something we should just bash and bash to no end because it's never going to change, it's just not in his personality.

What we should be slamming him for is his play the past 2 months. We were playing extremely well when he was playing extremely well. And, leadership or not, if LeBron went on a 2 month hiatus (wouldn't happen because he gets to the rim at will), you can damn well bet they'd start struggling also.

And if you don't think Duncan is a leader I don't know what to say. I remember him calling the ENTIRE TEAM around him to give a pep talk during that epic game 1 against Phoenix last season. They all gathered around him and listened, you can't tell me that is not a leader just because he is mild-mannered on the floor. There are few players in the league that command that type of respect from their teammates.

That is because Duncan is just that good, of course he commands respect. But for the most part he rarely does that. He is quiet on the floor other than yelling at the refs.

[High 5]

The Pistons were very successful with no one as good as Joe. They were a great defensive unit and guys knew their roles and played them perfectly. If Marvin and Smith always played up to their ability our team would be a lot better. Having a special needs coach doesn't help matters.

[markdeez33]

I agree Joe as a #1 option might not win a championship, HOWEVER, I think the Hawks will make it out of the first round this year.

Joe Johnson IS a star player. He's one of the most underrated star players in this league. Have yall forgotten what Joe did to the Celtics in the playoffs last year? Just imagine what he's going to do against Philadelphia or Detroit in the playoffs this year. I'm amped up about it and I will be there for every home game. If the Hawks should choose to let him walk in 2010, I hope he is one of the possible players that the Knicks attempt to sign.

[JoshB914]

The Pistons were very successful with no one as good as Joe. They were a great defensive unit and guys knew their roles and played them perfectly. If Marvin and Smith always played up to their ability our team would be a lot better. Having a special needs coach doesn't help matters.

Detroit is the exception to the rule. Almost every team to win an NBA title had at least one superstar on the roster.

[High 5]

The Pistons were very successful with no one as good as Joe. They were a great defensive unit and guys knew their roles and played them perfectly. If Marvin and Smith always played up to their ability our team would be a lot better. Having a special needs coach doesn't help matters.

Detroit is the exception to the rule. Almost every team to win an NBA title had at least one superstar on the roster.

But the have proven it doesn't take a superstar. Not say the Hawks will ever accomplish what those Piston teams accomplished, but Joe is plenty talented enough to be the best player on a championship team. On a team that good he wouldn't have to kill himself every night to try to squeeze out a victory. And Lord knows Woodson wouldn't be the coach of that team so he would be used more appropriately.

[Rod700]

I don't know if it's fair to treat JJ like that. Most of you around here know how I respect and love this guy for all he's done on and off the court. One thing we all agree on, JJ isn't and prob. will never be at LBJ or Kobe level, not even Wade. Now, take for instance Paul Pierce. I really love his game, but before he got true help from Garnett and Allen, his team sucked for a while or was a 1st round playoff team. When you look at our roster, where does the help come for JJ? I'd say M. Bibby and that's pretty much all. I'm not only talking about scoring. Our SF (2nd overall pick) is a non-factor most of the time. We have a PF that can't put any pressure on the opponent's D cause he can't post up, loves the perimeter and can't rebound. Then we have Horford, who as great as he is, can't draw double teams to open things up for JJ and has been playing out of position since day 1. JJ faces double, sometimes 3 team every night guys, have you played basketball to see how hard that is? In my opinion, we have to bring toughness(Artest), size(Kaman), and attitude into this team. Before we ever think about letting JJ go, I'd trade all of our athletic fowards for guys who have pride, can't stand losing or being the 4th option, and can actually provide solid help on the floor.

I just want to say that I have never agreed with a post more. I know this was on the first page, but I had to bring it back up. The Pierce-Joe comparison and their surrounding casts is the exact example I had in my mind, but I didn't have the time to post when I first read the thread. I agree that Kaman too is the size we need, and heart is also a quality we need to look for to support Joe.

Having said that, it's already been established that we either need star power, or chemistry like the Pistons. We don't play that level of defense that pistons team did though, and we can't move the ball as well either though. To succeed without star power, you need fluid team defense and passing. It's already been stated too that we don't have a coach who can facilitate that, and i agree.

I think the next feasible question then is do we need to make a trade to get that star power, or will our players develop into that level of play? I've always said I think Hortford has that potential, Smith serves a defensive spark (and that's about it), and Marv will be a well rounded roll player.

The next question then is, what players are we willing to part with to get that star power, size, and heart? I think we should hold on to Joe and Hortford, try to resign Bibby for less, realize that we can trade Smith so long as we get an inside defender in return, and actively shop Marv.