Can Joe get pts in d paint in CHI like he did against Dwight

[Harry10]

Joe didn't have a good Orlando series, but i was really impressed how he made an effort to get shots in the paint, even with Dwight lurking in the post.

Will Joe be able to penetrate the Bulls defense and get points in the paint like he did against Dwight?

[Ruhiel]

Depends if we can get extra possessions. Our lone win he shot 5 for 20.
I think we got down big but came back. We played Horf at the 4 and got 32% offensive boards. On March 11, with Smith at the 4, Joe shot 7-15 but we only got 10% ORB% to Bulls 32%.

On March 22, with Smith at the 4, Joe shot 6 for 11 but we only got 14.3% to Bulls 32.3%.

Bulls are getting all the tip outs and boards when we play small. It really all depends on whether we value extra possessions.

[Geaux_Hawks]

Can you say Noah is the ultimate hustle/energy guy?!?!?!? Size is the least thing to worry about in boxing out for rebounds. If you willing to hustle and have pretty good technique, then you can grab alot of boards. Boozer is 6'9, Love is 6'10, Randolph is 6'9, Humphries 6'9, David Lee 6'9, Chuck Hayes 6 freakin 6.BTW I wanted Noah over Horford, but thats another story.

Back to the actual topic. If he drives like he did against Dwight when Dwight fouled him, then I think he can score. Taking advantage of Korver, Bogans, Brewer in the post will be key. Joe size is a huge factor. It will either draw the other teams SF to guard him or let Joe abuse the smaller 2 guards. He can score in the paint, if he looks to drive more and draw fouls.

[Ruhiel]

Boozer is (266), Love is 260, Randolph is 260, Charles Barkley was 260, David Lee 6'9 is 260, Chuck Hayes is 263. Horford is 250.
Smith is 240. so if u consider weight and strength size does matter, he gives up more than Horford at center.
I wish we had some more of those guys but we don't.

Back to OT Joe has always gotten good shots but the only way we beat elite teams is if we close the ORB gap, which Josh smith backing up Horford is obviously incapable of.

In our lone win Joe went 5 for 20 missing easy shot after easy shot and we still won by 3. The key was we didn't lose so many rebounds to the Bulls hustle rebounders. In our blowout losses Joe only got 11 shots and 15 shots, but shot a good percentage in the blowouts. Josh was 4/13 and 6/12 in our blowouts. Even if Joe hits all those shots in the blowouts. The rebound differential was 2 much to overcome

This and other stats tells us a) if we get rebounds and give Joe more shots, more than likely he will hit them
b) Josh and Horford beating Boozer and Noah was a myth and Josh is incapable of outhustling them.
c) if we close the rebounding gap we get more possessions. Jamal and Joe will need to hit from a good clip but they need offensive rebounds to do it.
d) If we do play the offensive rebounding numbers and Joe gets 20 shots again, very good chance we win.
most minutes

versus Pacers
Deng is at 54%
Rose's TS% is at 53%. Dwight's was at 67% playing big. Playing our speed lineup Rose's was 70% and Deng was not far behind.

Kurt Thomas (11mpg) at 64%
Korver (20mpg) at 64%, cannot create often without Rose. hits 3s, chase him off the line, baseline towards Horford or Collins
Bogans (20mpg)at 68%, cannot create often without Rose. hit 5 for 7 last game, chase him off the line, baseline towards Horford or Collins

Gameplan: make Rose work for shots and stay at home on shooters. Play big and close the offensive glass margin Joakim and Boozer/Gibson/Asik cannot have big games. Take Boozer out the key with pnRs and attack Noah and put him in foul trouble.
Identify mismatches and draw double teams, attack the rim.

[Geaux_Hawks]

There is no way we can out rebound Asik, Noah, Gibson, and Boozer. The best we can do is close the gap and I don't think Collins can help do that like you think. I mean Indy had a energy/hustle guy in Hansbrough, a decent big athletic guy in McRoberts, and a very big Center in Hibbert and still got outrebounded by Boozer and Noah.

Offensive rebounds is about hustle and technique. Josh Smith can get them easily if he put in more hustle with his athleticism. Horford can get more if he worked more on technique since he isn't a vertical leaper. All in all, the Hawks need to be a bit closer to the paint anyway. Pachulia has the energy and hustle, but he isn't as athletic as Noah.

I agree, the game-plan should be make Rose work for everything and draw as many charges as possible. Identify the mismatches(Joe on Korver, Bogans, Brewer), Go at Noah and attack the rim. Force Boozer into jumpshots instead of posting up.

[Ruhiel]

There is no way we can out rebound Asik, Noah, Gibson, and Boozer. The best we can do is close the gap and I don't think Collins can help do that like you think.

Offensive rebounds is about hustle and technique. Josh Smith can get them easily if he put in more hustle with his athleticism. Horford can get more if he worked more on technique since he isn't a vertical leaper. All in all, the Hawks need to be a bit closer to the paint anyway. Pachulia has the energy and hustle, but he isn't as athletic as Noah.

I agree, the game-plan should be make Rose work for everything and draw as many charges as possible. Identify the mismatches(Joe on Korver, Bogans, Brewer), Go at Noah and attack the rim. Force Boozer into jumpshots instead of posting up.

Yes the best we can do is close the gap. Josh Smith grabs 14% of the total rebounds in the game and he turns them over anyway with his shot selection in the paint.

Howard grabs 21% of all boards, Josh grabs 14%, Boozer's grabbing 19%, Noah's grabbing 19% as well.
So the numbers say that this is not true.
Ryan Anderson and Brandon Bass only got 10% of Total rebounds and is 12.9% of TotalReB.

We can get away with Josh on Bass or Anderson but there is no way Josh out hustles Boozer and Noah to cover that gap. Josh gets 1 out of 10 rebound, Noah and Boozer get 1 out of 5.
There is no way and that is to cliche to say that Josh can outtechnique and grab every rebound to make up a 15% rebounding defecit we had between him and Horford.

Josh Smith is basically trying to box out and outrebound 2 Dwight Howards. Which is why we have 18% and 26% defecits in the Offensive Rebounding category.
Joakim Noah and Boozer are less athletic but cumulatively are actually better rebounders than Howard and Bass. We cannot afford to go with Josh Smith vs those 2 for long stretches.
{We can live with Rose scoring because considering free throws, 2s and 3s (TS%) Rose is a lesser scorer than Howard.}
Howard is going to get lobs and offensive board putbacks, Rose is going to go coast to coast and get layups. He's going to try to take and make tough shots. But we can't trade 2s for 3s.
Dwight shot 15 FT per game. In single coverage Rose will either beat his man for a clean layup and no foul or shoot a jump shot, either way he is not making 3pt plays and the offense stutters. It plays right into our hands.
Either way don't let his fans fool you into thinking he is more efficient than Dwight so we should double. His 3 pt shooters are more efficient than him and if we sit on them he is not as good TS% as Dwight. Just like the Magic double teams will kill you for 3s and opening lanes for slashers to penetrate and get fouled. We can live with Rose shooting 53%TS but not Korver and Bogans hitting 68% TS.

Hawks stay at home and play sound defense and play our rebounding lineups to close the gap rebounding gap. Make them settle for tough 2s. Hawks win.

[Geaux_Hawks]

Other than "Possibly" rebounding, Collins is pointless. You said it yourself that Rose is going coast 2 coast, so we need every man possible running back to slow him down. Collins is only effective at guarding big guys, not running. If we can hopefully make it to the ECF and face Boston, then throw Collins out there against them, but some good running teams like Chicago and Miami, we need to have personnel to run with them.

Chicago is already a good half court team defensively, so Collins becomes a liability there. Now when they bring in Asik we should go Pachulia. We can start Pachulia actually. Collins has done his job and that was to slow down Howard. Mission accomplished.

[Ruhiel]

You need to Prove it. All these claims are unsubstantiated.
We started Collins but yanked him in favor of Pachulia against the Bulls and were losing by 18, we started Colllins at half time and we came back from 18 down. this was without Josh Smith.

Collins size is a better paint clogger than Josh Smith. He simply covers more ground without trying. You need some sort of evidence that the Hawks can simply "run with them" and use Josh Smith to protect the paint without fouling. Because all the evidence is saying Josh Smith at PF is getting in foul trouble pretty quick and has a negative impact on rebounding.

We cannot run without boxing out and rebounding the ball. Believe it or not Joakim Noah is almost as Josh Smith is pretty much half the rebounder Noah is and we are not putting him in a position to succeed. We put Jason Collins in there and Al Horford to help and then Josh as a tertiary defender. Then we bring Marvin in to run when we need to and if the rebounding is suffering we sit Smith to recharge. Strategically if Rose is going to be at the rim all night Josh Smith as the primary or secondary rim protector is going to not cover ground in time and draw fouls.

This is how the Bulls stomped us. Collins also takes 1 shooter off the floor so we can get the ball to the right players. It creates balance and flexibility to choose defense and rebounding or running and shooting. You need both.

[Harry10]

You need to Prove it. All these claims are unsubstantiated.
We started Pachulia against the Bulls and were losing by 18, we started Colllins at half time and we came back from 18 down. this was without Josh Smith.

Collins size is a better paint clogger than Josh Smith. He simply covers more ground without trying. You need some sort of evidence that the Hawks can simply "run with them" and use Josh Smith to protect the paint without fouling. Because all the evidence is saying Josh Smith at PF is getting in foul trouble pretty quick and has a negative impact on rebounding.

We cannot run without boxing out and rebounding the ball. Believe it or not Joakim Noah is almost as Josh Smith is pretty much half the rebounder Noah is and we are not putting him in a position to succeed. We put Jason Collins in there and Al Horford to help and then Josh as a tertiary defender. Then we bring Marvin in to run when we need to and if the rebounding is suffering we sit Smith to recharge. Strategically if Rose is going to be at the rim all night Josh Smith as the primary or secondary rim protector is going to not cover ground in time and draw fouls.

This is how the Bulls stomped us. Collins also takes 1 shooter off the floor so we can get the ball to the right players. It creates balance and flexibility to choose defense and rebounding or running and shooting. You need both.

i think you are confusing Collins effect with a healthy Horford. or are you saying that Horford was not playing hurt in the last two Chicago meets?

[Ruhiel]

I'm saying Horford was playing power forward and needs someone to merely box out and he becomes a monster on the glass. Josh Smith is a 10% career total rebounder. Boozer and Noah are both twice as likely to grab the rebound as him.
Put Horford in with no center then we will score but Horford will share more shots with everybody else and our possessions will be worth less because they are getting offensive boards and erasing whatever points we score.
We played Damien Wilkins at the 3. and we played Collins 2 minutes and some of that was with Josh in at the 4. Terrible tandem. Terrible lineup rotations and defensive rotations.

Whoever we put on Rose I hope we make him try to beat us with long 2s and not press him so tight that he can drive and collapse the defense

[evildallas]

Joe didn't have a good Orlando series, but i was really impressed how he made an effort to get shots in the paint, even with Dwight lurking in the post.

Will Joe be able to penetrate the Bulls defense and get points in the paint like he did against Dwight?

Joe wasn't penetrating on Dwight per se. While he did occasionally have to loft the ball over Dwight at the end the penetration or post up normally came against a weaker cover like JJ Redick, Jameer Nelson, or Gilbert Arenas. Often it was after a switch on a pick and roll. Whether Chicago plays the same d on the pick and roll will be a question. If they switch I could seem him trying to post Rose. I don't see him penetrating as much against Bogans or Brewer. When Korver is in the game I'd expect Joe or Jamal to make him pay. However if Marvin is in the game at the time I would expect Korver to guard him as he is less likely to assert himself enough to exploit the matchup.

Don't get me wrong I would love to be surprised by Joe and see he take it to the paint, but I have a feeling that given the personnel that this will be a series of him shooting jumpers. God I hope I'm wrong about that.

[Ruhiel]

* The best move last series from Joe that I remember was when he drove middle off of a screen, turned the corner and Dwight came up to challenge he spun off Dwight, pinning D12's knee so he couldn't jump and shot a close little fadeaway in the paint
* maybe he/we will get to the FT line more and we get doubles and 3s and wins