Danny Ferry is not the rainmaker.... Billy King is.

[PandaKidd]

[
Josh Smith left Atlanta
Melo left Denver (old CBA I know)
D12 just signed for far less money with Houston
LBJ left Cleveland and a max deal for Miami

Sure you can make an argument for the state income tax differences/endoresements, etc, but its not unheard of that stars will turn money down to go somewhere else.

Wanna wager Melo stays in NY? I bet $100 he leaves, and leaves $20-30 million on the table.

You need 2 things to land a FA, CAPSPACE to sign them and surround them with talent , and trade-Able assets. Currently we have both, we just have to find the situation that fits us, it hasnt happened yet.

You're talking about the old CBA mostly... and players that have a diva complex. The question you need to ask yourself is why did these guys leave and where did they go. We had the most capspace last year. D12 didn't seriously consider us. He used us to leverage a deal he wanted. Sadly, you haven't mentioned a RFA yet.

SO basically, youre only looking for facts that support your argument? got it

[MaceCase]

Jennings and Tyreke Evans were two RFA's that changed teams last season. They both ended up in sign and trades but it was highly unlikely that either of their original teams would have matched their new near albatross deals and only gave up redundant parts as part of the trades regardless.

Then there's a need to clarify that by a free agent actually making it to free agency then indeed he hit the market, secondly Lance Stephenson is indeed a RFA.

[D21]

Melo left Denver (old CBA I know)
...
LBJ left Cleveland and a max deal for Miami

Melo was traded to NYK,
and James, like Bosh if I'm not wrong, took less money than what they could ask, but got sign-&-traded to MIA.
I don't remember exactly how it worked at this time, but there's a possibility that without the sign-&-trade, they wouldn't have been able to both go to MIA.
What I remember is that the paycut was allowing MIA to get Miller and keep Haslem.

[theatlfan]

Yes, there are rules in place to favor a club for keeping their FAs but there are also rules in place to spread talent out across all teams as well. I read on one site (pretty sure it was Lowe on Grantland) that the NBA wanted more parity ala the NFL and some of the rules in the CBA help with this - including the punitive LT that we see which helps spread the talent more evenly across the 30 teams. Parity is probably a good idea - out of 67 NBA championships, either the Celtics or the Lakers have won 33 of them; over the last 20 seasons, only 6 organizations have won a championship. Some of the early returns are backing him too: of the top 10 FAs last off-season according to this listing, 8 of the 10 top switched teams including the 2 RFAs . The 2 that stayed were CP3 (who was rumored to have one foot out the door until LAC traded for Doc Rivers) and Manu Ginobili (who is already on a championship contender). Out of the next 10, only 4 stayed with the same club. Now, the sample size for the truly elite is small - only D12 and CP3 were no brainer max guys - but I still think it's still a safe conclusion to say that teams are being much more cautious about who to keep out of the 2nd and 3rd tier guys. Considering that the repeater tax is just starting to hit teams this season, I suspect this trend will continue, if not become apparent.

(Note: anybody can dicker about any list - this one was just the first that I found with them still ranked on my google search)

Correction, PHX might be playoff bound. 10 games over .500. Should be our muse if we're going to continue to operate on the cheap. On the cheap... we didn't choose to fill holes with guys who could do it, we filled it up with the cheap guys we could find and hope for the best. At the deadline, we're not looking to get rid of the holes on the team, instead, we trying to trade Teague. This team needed a defensive stopper at the C position. We could have had one... but we're on the cheap.

Why do you feel the need for a correction? If they thought they'd be a team that would be playoff bound at the beginning of the season, do you really believe they would have traded their starting C? They're a team on the brink right now - either they utilize some assets and get Hornacek the star he deserves or they risk hitting the treadmill. I think the GM understands that, but he was just blind-sided by their success this season and wasn't prepared to react.

As far as the rest, I'm done. Every time I show you what Ferry is trying to do and how it matches up with every one else's goals, you decide you want to keep banging your hater drum.

First off... Going after RFAs... seriously?? That's a dumb plan. We even kept our RFA. More than likely with the exception of Stephenson, these guys will never hit the market. My point... capspace doesn't play basketball. Capspace has never put up a triple double. Capspace doesn't win games. Capspace is great to have if you have valuable assets and we have some... but if you're unwilling to use any of those assets in trade, then call yourself Rick Sund and just be a caretaker. You praise Ferry but you don't know his history. When you have really studied his history... then you will see things a little bit better.

Ferry is the first to admit that cap space doesn't win games - the players you can acquire with it does. As above, I've explained this seemingly 100x to you as well but you'd rather be a hater than actually have a discussion.

As for me, I do think Ferry has to start to prove he can pull in his core this off-season or I'll be much less likely to defend him. Having a team that I can see surrounding a star or 2 isn't bad coming out of y2; having a team without a star in y3 is a bit more questionable.

Then there's a need to clarify that by a free agent actually making it to free agency then indeed he hit the market, secondly Lance Stephenson is indeed a RFA.

Stephenson is a UFA. He's #13 on this list.

[diesel50]

atlfan,
I think it was you who said that Pho was right there with Phi and Orl.. tanking. Now, you're squirming to make that statement make sense. Don't worry about that.

Here's the real problem. The CBA was put in... #2 to create Parity leaguewide. #1 to prevent stars from leaving their franchise easily. Free Agency has always been a problem for Owners. Why do you build a team around a player, then watch him leave to play with his friends. When Lebron left Cleveland, that was the first shot fired for small market teams. That shot said... you won't be able to keep the stars you draft. So to fix that, the CBA punishes teams that go out and pick up other teams stars by capping them on how many good players they can have. The only thing that would be better is a hard cap (which is probably the next iteration/permutation of the CBA).
This effects us because now, teams with star players who are RFAs are being locked up. So we have this cap space that would have been very effective back in 2001... but now, it's only good for getting those guys that are unwanted by their teams like Josh Smith. There are still a whole lot of middling players that we can go after who were not high on their team's list and couldn't be fit into the cap... this is where that parity comes in. So now, we'll be able to make big offers to Birdman and Trevor Ariza. So with all this capspace, we can either go after a star that nobody wants back. Or go after a middling player who we will have to overpay to get.
BK showed us how to maneuver in these waters. He said you tank until you get your star. The key is being able to pick your star out of a college basketball lineup.

[MaceCase]

Then there's a need to clarify that by a free agent actually making it to free agency then indeed he hit the market, secondly Lance Stephenson is indeed a RFA.

Stephenson is a UFA. He's #13 on this list.

Apologies, should have known better than to trust ESPN and I keep forgetting that these 4 year 2nd rounder deals aren't made with the minimum salary exceptions.

Either way, we need to dump Louis or Jeffrey or amnesty Al even (sarcasm, no need to go that far on the latter 2) to get us in the conversation with Lance.

[theatlfan]

atlfan,
I think it was you who said that Pho was right there with Phi and Orl.. tanking. Now, you're squirming to make that statement make sense. Don't worry about that.

Reading Comprehension is your friend here. I said PHX *expected* to be right there with PHI and ORL (go back and look... we can wait). From their actions last off-season, I would think this would be obvious. Teams that are attempting to make the playoffs typically don't get rid of all their vets (outside of 1 rehab project in Frye and 1 actual player in Dragic) and go out with a roster full of young players - most of whom are on rookie contracts... that's what teams that are expecting to tank do.

Here's the real problem. The CBA was put in... #2 to create Parity leaguewide. #1 to prevent stars from leaving their franchise easily. Free Agency has always been a problem for Owners. Why do you build a team around a player, then watch him leave to play with his friends. When Lebron left Cleveland, that was the first shot fired for small market teams. That shot said... you won't be able to keep the stars you draft. So to fix that, the CBA punishes teams that go out and pick up other teams stars by capping them on how many good players they can have. The only thing that would be better is a hard cap (which is probably the next iteration/permutation of the CBA).
This effects us because now, teams with star players who are RFAs are being locked up. So we have this cap space that would have been very effective back in 2001... but now, it's only good for getting those guys that are unwanted by their teams like Josh Smith. There are still a whole lot of middling players that we can go after who were not high on their team's list and couldn't be fit into the cap... this is where that parity comes in. So now, we'll be able to make big offers to Birdman and Trevor Ariza. So with all this capspace, we can either go after a star that nobody wants back. Or go after a middling player who we will have to overpay to get.
BK showed us how to maneuver in these waters. He said you tank until you get your star. The key is being able to pick your star out of a college basketball lineup.

This is a really great opinion and all, but I've already shown that the facts aren't backing you up here. Reread up top: 2 of the top 10 FAs (according to one source) didn't return to their original club last off-season including the top 2 RFAs. This isn't Ariza/Anderson territory, this is the top 10. Further, I dug into the list to illustrate that it wasn't just the top guys bolting but well down the list as well. The 1st year of the repeater tax and 30% of the top 20 FAs (RFA or UFA) bolted... how does this match up to your claim that everyone that hits FA will stay? It doesn't, so you ignore it - even though I even gave the out to do 10 minutes of research through google to come up with a decent argument to back your claim.

This is why I'm calling you a hater - when the facts aren't supporting your argument, you chose to ignore them instead of making an actual verifiable argument (even when reading my posts apparently). You chose to throw Ferry and the entire organization under the bus without any substance to your argument - you're just choosing to spew hate and anything that doesn't match this world view is just in your way. There might actually some credence to some of your arguments, but your lack of any actual effort or original thought behind these opinions is so lacking that the entire agenda is simply too easily dismissed as full of fury but no substance. Come up with something better - it's boring.

[theatlfan]

Then there's a need to clarify that by a free agent actually making it to free agency then indeed he hit the market, secondly Lance Stephenson is indeed a RFA.

Stephenson is a UFA. He's #13 on this list.

Apologies, should have known better than to trust ESPN and I keep forgetting that these 4 year 2nd rounder deals aren't made with the minimum salary exceptions.

Either way, we need to dump Louis or Jeffrey or amnesty Al even (sarcasm, no need to go that far on the latter 2) to get us in the conversation with Lance.

FYI, the reason I knew this quickly was that I was corrected on the T&T board not too long ago. Someone else stated he was an RFA and I just took his word for it before an IND fan corrected us.

I think we can concur that the dream scenario here would be to trade Teague in a similar package that PHI got for Jrue (Jrue for 2 lotto picks - no other salary), but yeah, that's pie in the sky. The next option would be to pay in 2nds to trim Lou Williams off the roster (and considering the prices of salary dumps at the deadline, that may actually feasible).

Still though, I think we're not too far away from being able to offer a front loaded deal to Lance that could make him turn his head and one that IND couldn't counter effectively.

[diesel50]

This is a really great opinion and all, but I've already shown that the facts aren't backing you up here. Reread up top: 2 of the top 10 FAs (according to one source) didn't return to their original club last off-season including the top 2 RFAs. This isn't Ariza/Anderson territory, this is the top 10. Further, I dug into the list to illustrate that it wasn't just the top guys bolting but well down the list as well. The 1st year of the repeater tax and 30% of the top 20 FAs (RFA or UFA) bolted... how does this match up to your claim that everyone that hits FA will stay? It doesn't, so you ignore it - even though I even gave the out to do 10 minutes of research through google to come up with a decent argument to back your claim.

This is why I'm calling you a hater - when the facts aren't supporting your argument, you chose to ignore them instead of making an actual verifiable argument (even when reading my posts apparently). You chose to throw Ferry and the entire organization under the bus without any substance to your argument - you're just choosing to spew hate and anything that doesn't match this world view is just in your way. There might actually some credence to some of your arguments, but your lack of any actual effort or original thought behind these opinions is so lacking that the entire agenda is simply too easily dismissed as full of fury but no substance. Come up with something better - it's boring.

So let's start with the RFAs..
8 Brandon Jennings PG Milwaukee Bucks RFA $3,179,493
9 Tyreke Evans PG Sacramento Kings RFA $5,251,824
18 Nikola Pekovic C Minnesota Timberwolves RFA $4,640,000
21 Darren Collison PG Dallas Mavericks RFA $2,319,344
27 Tiago Splitter C San Antonio Spurs RFA $3,944,000
32 Chase Budinger SF Minnesota Timberwolves RFA $942,293
38 Gary Neal PG San Antonio Spurs RFA $972,000
45 Tyler Hansbrough PF Indiana Pacers RFA $3,055,259
49 Eric Maynor PG Oklahoma City Thunder RFA $2,338,720

From your chart. I take it you're talking about Brandon Jennings and Tyreke Evans as the two who changed teams. You can add to that Neal, Hansbrough, and Maynor. Now. Didn't I say that the good RFAs are being resigned and those Middling guys are out there. Maybe we disagree on Good.

Evans is putting up almost 13, 5, and 5. He's no CP3.
Brandon is putting up about 17, 8, and 3. That's good. However he's shooting 37.6% from the field. I don't get into the advanced stats but that's pretty bad.

My point is that when you're talking about what's avaiable via RFA... That's not going to yield the best players. Good players will be matched more than likely. Other players will be traded first.

UFA is a better shot, but again, you're normally talking about a disgruntled situation. Either way for us, it's going to take overpaying.