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Let's not kid ourselves!!!

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Re: Let's not kid ourselves!!! 

Post#21 » by HMFFL » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:06 pm

~Wretch~ wrote:I'm not going to get excited about that Mavs pick until it's in our hands. It's just the way Hawks luck goes. [tinfoil-hat]That being said, Zion is going #1, the lottery is rigged, and the NBA is going to send him to NY.[/tinfoil-hat] LOL Zion & Morant will be selected with two of the top 6 picks and there are 4-5 impressive wings to choose from around them. If we MIRACULOUSLY get two of those picks...I'd go with two BPA wings IN A HEARTBEAT and sort it all out later. There isn't one of those guys that I don't like.

The mocks are very high on Hayes and he looks great as a finisher, but we have that with Collins who can actually shoot.
Top 6? If Zion goes #1, which he will, I doubt Morant last past the 3rd pick. What changes the landscape is if New York doesn't end up with the first overall pick. That makes Anthony Davis a bigger possibility to be traded to New York. Boston being a threat as well since they have multiple first round picks.

Since NY will have a greater percentage chance to win the lottery I can't assume it was rigged. I'm sure Silver and the NBA are wanting Zion in New York and not for Phoenix/Cleveland/Memphis/New Orleans/Charlotte to get it.



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Re: Let's not kid ourselves!!! 

Post#22 » by Nathan2331 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:30 pm

observer1995 wrote:Forgive me but I'm not buying the Duke was a bad place for Reddish stuff. I've read so much about how the NBA floor would be more open for him and how he hasn't been in the right place for him to develop, but he's basically in the same role he'd be in if he were with Trae and Collins, in which he'd be drawing the 3rd best defender at most (maybe even 4th, considering Huerter) and getting wide open 3's and 1 on 1 drives on the basket. If he was truly a good one, you'd think he'd be succeeding in that role.

That's not to say that I completely object to taking him, but he's a guy that you likely almost have to redshirt rookie based off what I've seen and rebuild his confidence from the ground up in the G league for a full season before you let him start growing in the NBA. I don't think he has the mentality to survive what Trae survived and come out looking good if he were to struggle.

I'm likely taking De'Andre Hunter with the Hawks pick if it were me.


The difference between the Hawks and Duke offensively is massive. When we have Trae, Kevin, John and Dedmon on the floor, that's 4 players who are shooting better than 35% from behind the arc. Our bench outside of Bembry and Len can shoot, and even they can hit a 3 from certain spots. No one besides Reddish is a good shooter in Duke's starting lineup. Now, it's clear that Reddish has trouble getting to the rim under these circumstances, but on the Hawks he'd at least have some space to operate. He needs to get stronger so he can actually finish through contact, but that's a solvable issue.

If he tests well at the combine, I'm all for drafting him. I think playing next to 4 non-shooters has really hurt his game, and Coach K has barely done anything to mitigate it. His confidence is on the floor, but if he looks good during the draft process, I'd be fine taking him.
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Re: Let's not kid ourselves!!! 

Post#23 » by observer1995 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:22 pm

Nathan2331 wrote:
observer1995 wrote:Forgive me but I'm not buying the Duke was a bad place for Reddish stuff. I've read so much about how the NBA floor would be more open for him and how he hasn't been in the right place for him to develop, but he's basically in the same role he'd be in if he were with Trae and Collins, in which he'd be drawing the 3rd best defender at most (maybe even 4th, considering Huerter) and getting wide open 3's and 1 on 1 drives on the basket. If he was truly a good one, you'd think he'd be succeeding in that role.

That's not to say that I completely object to taking him, but he's a guy that you likely almost have to redshirt rookie based off what I've seen and rebuild his confidence from the ground up in the G league for a full season before you let him start growing in the NBA. I don't think he has the mentality to survive what Trae survived and come out looking good if he were to struggle.

I'm likely taking De'Andre Hunter with the Hawks pick if it were me.


The difference between the Hawks and Duke offensively is massive. When we have Trae, Kevin, John and Dedmon on the floor, that's 4 players who are shooting better than 35% from behind the arc. Our bench outside of Bembry and Len can shoot, and even they can hit a 3 from certain spots. No one besides Reddish is a good shooter in Duke's starting lineup. Now, it's clear that Reddish has trouble getting to the rim under these circumstances, but on the Hawks he'd at least have some space to operate. He needs to get stronger so he can actually finish through contact, but that's a solvable issue.

If he tests well at the combine, I'm all for drafting him. I think playing next to 4 non-shooters has really hurt his game, and Coach K has barely done anything to mitigate it. His confidence is on the floor, but if he looks good during the draft process, I'd be fine taking him.


But Zion and Barrett are creating space by the attention drawn to them even though they don't shoot well. That's what you're not getting in this post. In theory it should be an easy role for him. Catch and shoot threes and attack a not as good defensive player. If he really is going to be very good, you'd think he'd have better percentages.

If he ends up succeeding, he might be the first player we've seen succeed that shot below 40% FG overall in college.
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Re: Let's not kid ourselves!!! 

Post#24 » by Geaux_Hawks » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:43 pm

observer1995 wrote:
Nathan2331 wrote:
observer1995 wrote:Forgive me but I'm not buying the Duke was a bad place for Reddish stuff. I've read so much about how the NBA floor would be more open for him and how he hasn't been in the right place for him to develop, but he's basically in the same role he'd be in if he were with Trae and Collins, in which he'd be drawing the 3rd best defender at most (maybe even 4th, considering Huerter) and getting wide open 3's and 1 on 1 drives on the basket. If he was truly a good one, you'd think he'd be succeeding in that role.

That's not to say that I completely object to taking him, but he's a guy that you likely almost have to redshirt rookie based off what I've seen and rebuild his confidence from the ground up in the G league for a full season before you let him start growing in the NBA. I don't think he has the mentality to survive what Trae survived and come out looking good if he were to struggle.

I'm likely taking De'Andre Hunter with the Hawks pick if it were me.


The difference between the Hawks and Duke offensively is massive. When we have Trae, Kevin, John and Dedmon on the floor, that's 4 players who are shooting better than 35% from behind the arc. Our bench outside of Bembry and Len can shoot, and even they can hit a 3 from certain spots. No one besides Reddish is a good shooter in Duke's starting lineup. Now, it's clear that Reddish has trouble getting to the rim under these circumstances, but on the Hawks he'd at least have some space to operate. He needs to get stronger so he can actually finish through contact, but that's a solvable issue.

If he tests well at the combine, I'm all for drafting him. I think playing next to 4 non-shooters has really hurt his game, and Coach K has barely done anything to mitigate it. His confidence is on the floor, but if he looks good during the draft process, I'd be fine taking him.


But Zion and Barrett are creating space by the attention drawn to them even though they don't shoot well. That's what you're not getting in this post. In theory it should be an easy role for him. Catch and shoot threes and attack a not as good defensive player. If he really is going to be very good, you'd think he'd have better percentages.

If he ends up succeeding, he might be the first player we've seen succeed that shot below 40% FG overall in college.


The thing is, you're asking a guy who used his shooting as secondary tool for offense, to now just be a spot up shooter only. Cam was thought to be a point forward kind of guy, that can can make you pay if you give him space. He didn't have to rely on his shot to carry him.

With the ball in his hand, he can initiate and do different things like drive to the hoop or pull up from mid-range. He can come off curls and move around screens for catch and shoot chances. Now he's relegated to sitting on the wing for a bail out shot. It can be frustrating for a guy like him because not only is he not use to that role, but if the shot isn't falling, well what else is he afforded to do? He can't get himself going by getting some layups or using his mid-range shot. Some guys simply just need to see the ball go through the net to get going. Cam doesn't have the luxury.

Instead, Zion & Barrett are clogging the interior, and making Cam take a pressure 3 to bail them out since they couldn't get it done. At 7 3's a game, he's still sitting around 35%, and again, these are mostly bail out shots late in the shot clock. Over a season of doing mainly that and not able to really get going with some consistency, it becomes very frustrating and can cause some to wonder if he was ever worth being considered one of the top freshman to enter the college ranks. He's got a lot more to offer than being a spot up shooter. Some guys can be that. Some can't.
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Re: Let's not kid ourselves!!! 

Post#25 » by ~Wretch~ » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:41 pm

HMFFL wrote:
~Wretch~ wrote:I'm not going to get excited about that Mavs pick until it's in our hands. It's just the way Hawks luck goes. [tinfoil-hat]That being said, Zion is going #1, the lottery is rigged, and the NBA is going to send him to NY.[/tinfoil-hat] LOL Zion & Morant will be selected with two of the top 6 picks and there are 4-5 impressive wings to choose from around them. If we MIRACULOUSLY get two of those picks...I'd go with two BPA wings IN A HEARTBEAT and sort it all out later. There isn't one of those guys that I don't like.

The mocks are very high on Hayes and he looks great as a finisher, but we have that with Collins who can actually shoot.
Top 6? If Zion goes #1, which he will, I doubt Morant last past the 3rd pick. What changes the landscape is if New York doesn't end up with the first overall pick. That makes Anthony Davis a bigger possibility to be traded to New York. Boston being a threat as well since they have multiple first round picks.

Since NY will have a greater percentage chance to win the lottery I can't assume it was rigged. I'm sure Silver and the NBA are wanting Zion in New York and not for Phoenix/Cleveland/Memphis/New Orleans/Charlotte to get it.



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Sooo... Not sure you understand where I'm coming from. All I'm saying is the landscape doesn't change for me IF we get 2 of the top 6 picks. Assuming Zion to NY and no need for Morant - we could land 2 of the 3-4 wings that I am equally high on.

I've discussed how I feel about the lottery for the better part of 25 years. I'm convinced there's some amount of tomfoolery afoot and I don't care at all to argue about it. With NY having great odds and being a good place for the NBA to put him...if it's rigged, and I'm saying it is, then that's where he's going (tinfoil tag added for comedy).
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Re: Let's not kid ourselves!!! 

Post#26 » by Night Traen » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:47 pm

~Wretch~ wrote:
HMFFL wrote:
~Wretch~ wrote:I'm not going to get excited about that Mavs pick until it's in our hands. It's just the way Hawks luck goes. [tinfoil-hat]That being said, Zion is going #1, the lottery is rigged, and the NBA is going to send him to NY.[/tinfoil-hat] LOL Zion & Morant will be selected with two of the top 6 picks and there are 4-5 impressive wings to choose from around them. If we MIRACULOUSLY get two of those picks...I'd go with two BPA wings IN A HEARTBEAT and sort it all out later. There isn't one of those guys that I don't like.

The mocks are very high on Hayes and he looks great as a finisher, but we have that with Collins who can actually shoot.
Top 6? If Zion goes #1, which he will, I doubt Morant last past the 3rd pick. What changes the landscape is if New York doesn't end up with the first overall pick. That makes Anthony Davis a bigger possibility to be traded to New York. Boston being a threat as well since they have multiple first round picks.

Since NY will have a greater percentage chance to win the lottery I can't assume it was rigged. I'm sure Silver and the NBA are wanting Zion in New York and not for Phoenix/Cleveland/Memphis/New Orleans/Charlotte to get it.



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Sooo... Not sure you understand where I'm coming from. All I'm saying is the landscape doesn't change for me IF we get 2 of the top 6 picks. Assuming Zion to NY and no need for Morant - we could land 2 of the 3-4 wings that I am equally high on.

I've discussed how I feel about the lottery for the better part of 25 years. I'm convinced there's some amount of tomfoolery afoot and I don't care at all to argue about it. With NY having great odds and being a good place for the NBA to put him...if it's rigged, and I'm saying it is, then that's where he's going (tinfoil tag added for comedy).

Yo, Tinfoil, if the draft is rigged, why would they send the most marketable, most obvious star of all time to.....CLEVELAND?

I won't let you spoil our chances of not getting the biggest star prospect since THAT guy. ATL hasn't had a #1 in 55 years, longest in the league, IIRC. WE are the ones that it should be rigged for.
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Re: Let's not kid ourselves!!! 

Post#27 » by observer1995 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:50 pm

Geaux_Hawks wrote:
observer1995 wrote:
Nathan2331 wrote:
The difference between the Hawks and Duke offensively is massive. When we have Trae, Kevin, John and Dedmon on the floor, that's 4 players who are shooting better than 35% from behind the arc. Our bench outside of Bembry and Len can shoot, and even they can hit a 3 from certain spots. No one besides Reddish is a good shooter in Duke's starting lineup. Now, it's clear that Reddish has trouble getting to the rim under these circumstances, but on the Hawks he'd at least have some space to operate. He needs to get stronger so he can actually finish through contact, but that's a solvable issue.

If he tests well at the combine, I'm all for drafting him. I think playing next to 4 non-shooters has really hurt his game, and Coach K has barely done anything to mitigate it. His confidence is on the floor, but if he looks good during the draft process, I'd be fine taking him.


But Zion and Barrett are creating space by the attention drawn to them even though they don't shoot well. That's what you're not getting in this post. In theory it should be an easy role for him. Catch and shoot threes and attack a not as good defensive player. If he really is going to be very good, you'd think he'd have better percentages.

If he ends up succeeding, he might be the first player we've seen succeed that shot below 40% FG overall in college.


The thing is, you're asking a guy who used his shooting as secondary tool for offense, to now just be a spot up shooter only. Cam was thought to be a point forward kind of guy, that can can make you pay if you give him space. He didn't have to rely on his shot to carry him.

With the ball in his hand, he can initiate and do different things like drive to the hoop or pull up from mid-range. He can come off curls and move around screens for catch and shoot chances. Now he's relegated to sitting on the wing for a bail out shot. It can be frustrating for a guy like him because not only is he not use to that role, but if the shot isn't falling, well what else is he afforded to do? He can't get himself going by getting some layups or using his mid-range shot. Some guys simply just need to see the ball go through the net to get going. Cam doesn't have the luxury.

Instead, Zion & Barrett are clogging the interior, and making Cam take a pressure 3 to bail them out since they couldn't get it done. At 7 3's a game, he's still sitting around 35%, and again, these are mostly bail out shots late in the shot clock. Over a season of doing mainly that and not able to really get going with some consistency, it becomes very frustrating and can cause some to wonder if he was ever worth being considered one of the top freshman to enter the college ranks. He's got a lot more to offer than being a spot up shooter. Some guys can be that. Some can't.


It's actually 32% and I've seen Duke fans complaining that his point forward skills that he was hyped for are not actually that good. And he was given chances to run the offense as well.

Let's be honest, any other name outside of Cam Reddish and this guy is not drafted in the first round this year. I might draft him anyway, but he's a 3 year project to me that wouldn't be starting until the 3rd year.
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Re: Let's not kid ourselves!!! 

Post#28 » by ~Wretch~ » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:08 am

Night Traen wrote:
~Wretch~ wrote:
HMFFL wrote:Top 6? If Zion goes #1, which he will, I doubt Morant last past the 3rd pick. What changes the landscape is if New York doesn't end up with the first overall pick. That makes Anthony Davis a bigger possibility to be traded to New York. Boston being a threat as well since they have multiple first round picks.

Since NY will have a greater percentage chance to win the lottery I can't assume it was rigged. I'm sure Silver and the NBA are wanting Zion in New York and not for Phoenix/Cleveland/Memphis/New Orleans/Charlotte to get it.



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Sooo... Not sure you understand where I'm coming from. All I'm saying is the landscape doesn't change for me IF we get 2 of the top 6 picks. Assuming Zion to NY and no need for Morant - we could land 2 of the 3-4 wings that I am equally high on.

I've discussed how I feel about the lottery for the better part of 25 years. I'm convinced there's some amount of tomfoolery afoot and I don't care at all to argue about it. With NY having great odds and being a good place for the NBA to put him...if it's rigged, and I'm saying it is, then that's where he's going (tinfoil tag added for comedy).

Yo, Tinfoil, if the draft is rigged, why would they send the most marketable, most obvious star of all time to.....CLEVELAND?

I won't let you spoil our chances of not getting the biggest star prospect since THAT guy. ATL hasn't had a #1 in 55 years, longest in the league, IIRC. WE are the ones that it should be rigged for.


Yeah...lol...I've spent more than a few hours on the merry-go-round. Not interested in it.

I will say though, that LeBron then wasn't LeBron now. I mean, we all knew he was going to be good...but he was still a high-schooler. He's also from Akron. Without suspicious lottery bumps from NY or LA (Clips) that year, there weren't really better choices to send him to IMO.

...but hey, I've already said more than I'm comfortable with. So, I'll bow out with a "you're absolutely right and it makes sense." I'm just not looking for the NBA to do us any favors and I'm fully expecting Zion in NY. We shall see.

(...I'll also deny this conversation ever happened so. :P )
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Re: Let's not kid ourselves!!! 

Post#29 » by Geaux_Hawks » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:37 am

observer1995 wrote:
It's actually 32% and I've seen Duke fans complaining that his point forward skills that he was hyped for are not actually that good. And he was given chances to run the offense as well.

Let's be honest, any other name outside of Cam Reddish and this guy is not drafted in the first round this year. I might draft him anyway, but he's a 3 year project to me that wouldn't be starting until the 3rd year.


The guy could very just end up a bust anyway, but Duke fans watching him play a small sample size of being a point forward isn't saying much. RJ Barrett and Zion aren't the best off-ball guys to play with, while Tre Jones offers hardly anything to work with either.

And you're right, if it's JAG, he's probably more late first than anything, but because he's a highly touted prospected coming out of HS that's in a not so ideal situation, NBA scouts are going to overlook a lot of his woes currently in hopes that the upside is still there.
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Re: Let's not kid ourselves!!! 

Post#30 » by observer1995 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:59 am

Geaux_Hawks wrote:
observer1995 wrote:
It's actually 32% and I've seen Duke fans complaining that his point forward skills that he was hyped for are not actually that good. And he was given chances to run the offense as well.

Let's be honest, any other name outside of Cam Reddish and this guy is not drafted in the first round this year. I might draft him anyway, but he's a 3 year project to me that wouldn't be starting until the 3rd year.


The guy could very just end up a bust anyway, but Duke fans watching him play a small sample size of being a point forward isn't saying much. RJ Barrett and Zion aren't the best off-ball guys to play with, while Tre Jones offers hardly anything to work with either.

And you're right, if it's JAG, he's probably more undrafted than anything, but because he's a highly touted prospected coming out of HS that's in a not so ideal situation, NBA scouts are going to overlook a lot of his woes currently in hopes that the upside is still there.


FIFY, and second round at most.

Seriously, someone has to name me a player that shot below 40% in his lone season in college and ended up being a success in the NBA. He won't listen to me but Reddish shouldn't declare, and unless he's drafted into a situation where a team can redshirt him and develop him in the G league, at this point I honestly think the odds are pretty high he busts.

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