John Collins Edited: (Hawks Seek Lottery Pick For Collins)

[D21]

I know he hasn’t led the Hawks to the playoffs but still think he makes a big impact.

Hawks were 4-21 when Collins was suspended. So 6-24 when he returned & had the worst record in the league. On his recent 19 game tear the Hawks are 9-10 & seems the team is playing more competitive even in losses. Big improvement.

Last year he was injured in preseason & missed the first 15 games + played the first 3 game on min restriction. Hawks were 3-15. Worst record in the league. Believe they ended the season something like 19-24 so again big improvement.

So 7-36 in that stretch without him to start the last 2 years. Some of the improvements can be pinned to the rookies playing better but still pretty clear the team is significantly better with Collins playing.

I'm sorry but this a logical and doesn't help to know how much you can give him.
He's a borderline All-Star, and will certainly be one, and he was missing, but not replace by any other player, except Parker will was playing all offense and zero defense.

Instead of comparing with and without John, we should imagine what would be difference with John and with Sabonis instead (for example, but also because he was All-Star and John would have been already if ATL had the IND record this season).
It's not the same team, but IND without Sabonis is not the same team, and they share somthing, they both play better at PF than at C, shaving both their playing time between PF and C, and IND can re-sign him for 78M/4years... Why would ATL need to pay the Max ? Good management he's also convincing the player to be OK with a project, and it's a long time project, and to be contender, they certainly don't need two player at Max (Trae will get it) with one already signed at Max before the team played in playoffs. And once in playoffs, there's still much to do before expecting at least a Conf Finals.

Unless IND is lucky to already have several 20M player and that helps to re-sign another one without giving him the Max, and in this case, it would not be a good management move to enter the free agency of one of your best player with lots of cap room, because they will eat a big part, like Booker with PHO, Towns or Wiggins with MIN,... especially in a franchise where attracting big F.A. is not easy.
Trae and Kevin will be in the same situation next season, and then Cam and De'Andre
If the IND case is an example, then we would hev better to use a big part of the room this summer to add one good player, before extending John some weeks/months later

I hope we can at least have a good sample of the Clint/John combo before the end of the season, because it's what would set in my opinion the price of Jonh, in a team POV.

[HMFFL]

Current Contract:
2019-20: $2,686,560
2020-21: $4,137,302
2021-22: $5,899,793 {Qualifying Offer}

John Collins Has Earned An Extension With The Atlanta Hawks. But For How Much?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/patbenson/2020/03/01/john-collins-has-earned-an-extension-with-the-atlanta-hawks-but-for-how-much/amp/

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[Ball4life32]

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[Jamaaliver]

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[HMFFL]

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I look forward to a full season next season with him producing.

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[D21]

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That's impressive, but I hope his contract will not be mainly based on that, bball is also defense. Now, on the last 10 games, his impact on defense has not changed so much, but he covers it with better efficiecy on the offensive side...
Would be great to see what he can do with Clint, it would really help on finding new players to add, and to evaluate his value

[jayu70]

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That's impressive, but I hope his contract will not be mainly based on that, bball is also defense. Now, on the last 10 games, his impact on defense has not changed so much, but he covers it with better efficiecy on the offensive side...
Would be great to see what he can do with Clint, it would really help on finding new players to add, and to evaluate his value

He still needs work on his defense particulary in space but he is improving. This is encouraging as well.

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[jayu70]

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“I feel like if more people watch the game, they would understand that I’m not just a pick-and-roll player,” Collins said. “I have an ability to swing the ball, run the floor, shoot, create offense for myself, post up, take advantage of mismatches. I feel like my ability to play within the team’s offense and not need the basketball and just play a role and be effective at it — I feel like that adds another layer to my game that I feel like some people don’t respect. I just think people say, ‘Oh, John and Clint are similar players. They will never play with each other.’ Now that I’m shooting the ball, I feel like it helps, but I think people still I’m stuck as a 5 maybe. They see me playing the 5, so they might be stuck seeing me in that light. I feel like we’re going to be effective together. I feel like I’m going to have more open shots now, too. I feel like the lane is going to open a lot more if I continue to shoot over 40 percent and have Cam (Reddish), Kev (Huerter), (De’Andre Hunter) and Trae (Young) running pick-and-rolls. In a basketball heaven, it sounds amazing.”

“I definitely feel like I am in max contract contention. If I finish this season averaging 20 and 10, the other guys who are averaging 20 and 10 are max-caliber guys. I’m in that conversation and feel like I am worthy of being extended as such. That’s for the Hawks to decide and figure it out. If you want to look at numbers and flat-out play, I definitely feel like I’ve earned it. But the team situation, future cap and all that, now you have a contract negotiation.”
Collins understands that not being offered the max is a real possibility and says he would not feel slighted if that’s what the Hawks choose to do. He’s going to continue to try to be the best ambassador of the team he can be. He wants to be one of the faces of the franchise, but he also wants to be paid like one.
There’s also the possibility the Hawks will wait until the summer of 2021 to pay Collins and let him enter restricted free agency so the market could set itself.
“I wouldn’t take it personal, but my antennas would be up, for sure,” Collins said. “If I can leave it at that. My antennas would be up.”

[jayu70]

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That's impressive, but I hope his contract will not be mainly based on that, bball is also defense. Now, on the last 10 games, his impact on defense has not changed so much, but he covers it with better efficiecy on the offensive side...
Would be great to see what he can do with Clint, it would really help on finding new players to add, and to evaluate his value

He still needs work on his defense particulary in space but he is improving. This is encouraging as well.

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more on JC's improved defense:

On defense, Collins is still fouling at the same rate as he was last year, 3.8 percent, which is slightly higher than the league average. As a whole defensively, Collins has progressed to become a solid defender. His block percentage jumped from 1.8 last season to 4.2 this season. His steal percentage jumped from 0.6 to 1. When he’s playing his natural position of power forward, opposing teams are shooting 2.2 percentage points worse at the rim. Because of his jump defensively, his box plus-minus has jumped from 0.9 to 3.4 this season, ranking 22nd in the league.

There is still the public perception that he’s not a good defender, but the numbers suggest otherwise. He’s in the 64th percentile in opponents’ points per possession on Synergy, but individual defensive metrics are hard to exactly measure, especially when the Hawks are bad defensively.

[hawks_fan25]

What is the max for someone with his experience? I can't keep up with all the max rules. I like Collins a lot, but I'd rather trade him than pay him north of $30m/yr. He's not a centerpiece, he's a secondary scoring option that can occasionally light it up.

He does kind of have the Hawks right where he wants them. They almost have to pay him to stay on the path that they are on with developing our own. Problem is in a couple of years you'll have both Collins and Trae on max contracts and it will be difficult to build a contender around them without going into the luxury tax. I doubt we will go into the tax.

[shakes0]

So this is what it's like to cheer for a small market team? You finally get a good player and management jerks him around and then he ends up leaving. Pathetic if they let this guy go or jerk him around. Just give him his F-ing money!

[kg01]

So this is what it's like to cheer for a small market team? You finally get a good player and management jerks him around and then he ends up leaving. Pathetic if they let this guy go or jerk him around. Just give him his F-ing money!

I got a couple thoughts on this.

First, I wonder if this is just him preemptively striking. I haven't seen any indication they intend to low-ball him.

Second, the reality is there are some very legit reasons not to pay him a full max considering he's still got room to improve. A near-max offer shouldn't be considered an insult.

Third, I do hope the front office understands you gotta pay to play though. Can't be jerkin' dudes around. If all goes well, the team will be a playoff team next year. Ain't no cheap teams winning at a high level. Open the pocketbook (do they still call them "pocketbooks"?).

[shakes0]

So this is what it's like to cheer for a small market team? You finally get a good player and management jerks him around and then he ends up leaving. Pathetic if they let this guy go or jerk him around. Just give him his F-ing money!

I got a couple thoughts on this.

First, I wonder if this is just him preemptively striking. I haven't seen any indication they intend to low-ball him.

Second, the reality is there are some very legit reasons not to pay him a full max considering he's still got room to improve. A near-max offer shouldn't be considered an insult.

Third, I do hope the front office understands you gotta pay to play though. Can't be jerkin' dudes around. If all goes well, the team will be a playoff team next year. Ain't no cheap teams winning at a high level. Open the pocketbook (do they still call them "pocketbooks"?).

Being 50 years old and from Chicago I witnessed firsthand how a cheap front office can ruin a team. Bulls could've/should've had 2-3 more titles, but for the front office getting cheap with Scottie, Michael, Phil Jackson and pretty much everyone else. Watched it rip the team apart. The 6th title was even tough to enjoy as the entire season the medial was speculating about what was going to happen and the players were taking snipes at management all year long.

If you draft a player and that player turns out to be much better than his draft slot and that player is a major part of your team you pay the man. Even if it means you gotta pay a premium.

I guarantee if they low ball Collins or make him wait it out till RFA, you'll start to get some bad feelings in the rest of the locker room from the other young guys. You think Trae is gonna be happy that his favorite target is getting jerked around?


As for the part about JC making a pre-emptive strike. I disagree as this rumor about the Hawks not wanting to pay Collins has been around all season.

[jayu70]

What is the max for someone with his experience? I can't keep up with all the max rules. I like Collins a lot, but I'd rather trade him than pay him north of $30m/yr. He's not a centerpiece, he's a secondary scoring option that can occasionally light it up.

He does kind of have the Hawks right where he wants them. They almost have to pay him to stay on the path that they are on with developing our own. Problem is in a couple of years you'll have both Collins and Trae on max contracts and it will be difficult to build a contender around them without going into the luxury tax. I doubt we will go into the tax.

25% of the projected salary cap of $115 million = $28.75 mil.
I see him getting somewhere in the 20%-22% range.

[kg01]

So this is what it's like to cheer for a small market team? You finally get a good player and management jerks him around and then he ends up leaving. Pathetic if they let this guy go or jerk him around. Just give him his F-ing money!

I got a couple thoughts on this.

First, I wonder if this is just him preemptively striking. I haven't seen any indication they intend to low-ball him.

Second, the reality is there are some very legit reasons not to pay him a full max considering he's still got room to improve. A near-max offer shouldn't be considered an insult.

Third, I do hope the front office understands you gotta pay to play though. Can't be jerkin' dudes around. If all goes well, the team will be a playoff team next year. Ain't no cheap teams winning at a high level. Open the pocketbook (do they still call them "pocketbooks"?).

Being 50 years old and from Chicago I witnessed firsthand how a cheap front office can ruin a team. Bulls could've/should've had 2-3 more titles, but for the front office getting cheap with Scottie, Michael, Phil Jackson and pretty much everyone else. Watched it rip the team apart. The 6th title was even tough to enjoy as the entire season the medial was speculating about what was going to happen and the players were taking snipes at management all year long.

If you draft a player and that player turns out to be much better than his draft slot and that player is a major part of your team you pay the man. Even if it means you gotta pay a premium.

I guarantee if they low ball Collins or make him wait it out till RFA, you'll start to get some bad feelings in the rest of the locker room from the other young guys. You think Trae is gonna be happy that his favorite target is getting jerked around?


As for the part about JC making a pre-emptive strike. I disagree as this rumor about the Hawks not wanting to pay Collins has been around all season.

I hear you, overall. And I recall well the breakup of the Bulls and how the "organization" basically took credit for Jordan's accomplishments.

On the Collins rumors, I think that was just speculation from outside entities born out of his suspension.

"Journalists" nowadays take pieces of truth and put 2-and-2 together to make "news". It's shameful. You won't find anyone quoted, on or off the record, that that's the case with Collins. Why? Because it's a virtually made-up "rumor" (imho).

The truth is that he got suspended. The truth is that the team hasn't won at a high level. The truth is Collins has some holes in his game, that he's clearly working on, but that show he's a work in progress. The truth is the Hawks explored trading for Capela (which folks assumed was a swap of Collins).

Folks take all those truths and surmise and assume the Hawks have issues with paying/keeping Collins. Well, I don't think that's the case at all.

Now if they low-ball him, I'll know I was wrong to give them the benefit of the doubt. Until then, I won't get overly enamored with all these "reports".

Just my $0.02.

[Jamaaliver]

I really like John Collins and believe that he has been and will continue to be a worthy ambassador for the city and the franchise. But he isn't a max player.

He's a secondary or tertiary option that helps keep a bad team competitive.

JC should get slightly more than Sabonis is currently getting. Just north of $20 million per year.

The only reason to pay more than that...is to keep Trae Young happy. And that's a dangerous road to go down.

[jayu70]

If it's over...

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[D21]

Being 50 years old and from Chicago I witnessed firsthand how a cheap front office can ruin a team. Bulls could've/should've had 2-3 more titles, but for the front office getting cheap with Scottie, Michael, Phil Jackson and pretty much everyone else. Watched it rip the team apart. The 6th title was even tough to enjoy as the entire season the medial was speculating about what was going to happen and the players were taking snipes at management all year long.

If you draft a player and that player turns out to be much better than his draft slot and that player is a major part of your team you pay the man. Even if it means you gotta pay a premium.

I guarantee if they low ball Collins or make him wait it out till RFA, you'll start to get some bad feelings in the rest of the locker room from the other young guys. You think Trae is gonna be happy that his favorite target is getting jerked around?


As for the part about JC making a pre-emptive strike. I disagree as this rumor about the Hawks not wanting to pay Collins has been around all season.

Sure it was a disaster, but I'm not sure we can compare so easily. Jordan was getting 10 times the salary of other players while a guy like Pippen would be in this era a Max guy, defending like almost nobody do today.

The example I will take is SAS. One reason they won several titles was that Parker and Gino never asked for Max money, they got well paid, could even have got a bit more, but they also know they did good teammates to win several championships.
Considering Trae will be our Duncan, has John a bigger impact than Parker or Gino had playing with Duncan ? I don't think, but I also think he can in the future. So 20% of the cap would be a nice offer for both the team and John.
Thinking that a guy you draft is better than what you thought he would be leading to offering him the Max while your team hasn't shown what it can do in playoffs is like PHX did with Booker, it's a mistakes. If players get Max based on their personal stats only but not on what they bring to the team, it's a mistake.

[jayu70]

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[Jamaaliver]

Hawks Mailbag on The Athletic:

Q. Do you think the shortened season makes it easier for the Hawks to punt on the (John) Collins decision? With the season ending early and his 25-game suspension it allows them to say that while his numbers were fantastic we just want to see that on a bigger sample size.

Chris Kirchner: It definitely makes it an easier conversation for the Hawks to have with one of their best players. I just can’t see them giving Collins an extension when he played in only 41 games this season and missed 20 games the season before. We all know that Collins was incredible this season, but I just don’t see how the Hawks could give him $100 million-plus after playing 41 games. It would just be smart business to wait until next summer.