Game 35: Atlanta VS Milwaukee

[tontoz]

I just cant get past the fact that the Hawks opponents have gotten 38 offensive rebounds in the last two games.

[Rip2137]

Eh. they were both teams that spread the court and shoot alot of jumpers. Jumpshots lead to funny rebounds. It happens.

The thing that bothered me in this game was the refs calling two pointless travels on the Hawks in crunch time. I guess you can call it Karma for that one no call on AJ the night before, but Smith caught the ball and went up and got called for a travel, and that last one on Marvin was just plain horrible.

Their shots didn't fall in the fourth, but besides that, I don't see what everyone is so upset about. They played hard, JJ played like crap so they had to get their offense from another place at the end of the game.

I do wish that Solo would have gotten Wrights minutes and that mario West would get some minutes in games where we can't score and need some energy. But nothing that is tearing me up in this game.

[tontoz]

they were both teams that spread the court and shoot alot of jumpers. Jumpshots lead to funny rebounds.

Poor excuse

First shot the Bucks took in the second half missed. Yi was in position right under the rim on the opposit side for the follow up. There were no Hawks even within arms reach.

There is a reason why the Hawks are 26th in the NBA in defensive rebounding and it isn't because their opponents get a lot of "funny rebounds".

[JoshB914]

We were better in the second half but the o boards last night wre because we were not tough enough. They were beating us to loose balls and simply winning the battle under the boards. I can live with us getting beat by better teams, but I hate it when teams come in and just push us around and win because of it.

[killbuckner]

When it comes down to it the Hawks have just one player who is an above average rebounder. Horford puts up good numbers (though part of that may be him sweeping up "easy" rebounds that the other Hawks don't get to). Josh Smith is not a good rebounder for a PF. Marvin is an average rebounder for a SF. Joe is surprisingly a below average rebounder for a SG. AJ is an average rebounder at PG, Law is one of the worst rebounders in the league so far in his career. Childress is actually pretty decent on the boards as well.

I just think that Josh Smith and Marvin need to buckle down on the boards a little more. If the Hawks are going to go without a "traditional" center then that means there are more rebounds that need to be secured.

[tontoz]

I just think that Josh Smith and Marvin need to buckle down on the boards a little more. If the Hawks are going to go without a "traditional" center then that means there are more rebounds that need to be secured.

People here don't want to hear that about Smith. Everyone says that since he block shots that means he can't be a good rebounder too.

[Rip2137]

they were both teams that spread the court and shoot alot of jumpers. Jumpshots lead to funny rebounds.

Poor excuse

First shot the Bucks took in the second half missed. Yi was in position right under the rim on the opposit side for the follow up. There were no Hawks even within arms reach.

There is a reason why the Hawks are 26th in the NBA in defensive rebounding and it isn't because their opponents get a lot of "funny rebounds".

The Hawks also play alot of zone(needlessly most times) and that will give up ALOT of offensive rebounds because you aren't attached to a player to box out. Plus joe NEVER goes to the boards. ever. If he shoots he is fading and if he passes out the double and others shoot, he releases for some reason.

There are alot of reasons that they aren't the best on the defensive boards. Last night they got out hussled but alot of the rebounds last night were just bouncing free after shots and it was a case of running it down. Those are funny rebounds. In the nuggets, they took almost all jumpshots. Once again, long rebounds.

That comes down to the guards and our guards, as evidenced by the total lack of fast break points we are giving up these last few games, are getting back and preventing the break.

[Rip2137]

It doesn't change the fact that Smith goes after most shots putting him out of position for rebounds.

Marvin has no excuse. But josh challenging a shot on one side of the rim, I don't think you are suppsoed to expect him to get the rebound too. If he is challenging a jump shot, he shouldn't be the one getting the board.

Sorry, thats just how it works.

[tontoz]

It doesn't change the fact that Smith goes after most shots putting him out of position for rebounds.

No he doesn't. over 60% of all shots are jumpers and Smith doesn't challenge them any more often than Horford does. All players are taught to challenge jump shooters on the perimeter.

That comes down to the guards and our guards, as evidenced by the total lack of fast break points we are giving up these last few games, are getting back and preventing the break.

Our guards are getting back on DEFENSE which makes it harder to get DEFENSIVE rebounds? You definitely lost me there.

[Rip2137]

It doesn't change the fact that Smith goes after most shots putting him out of position for rebounds.

No he doesn't. over 60% of all shots are jumpers and Smith doesn't challenge them any more often than Horford does. All players are taught to challenge jump shooters on the perimeter.

That comes down to the guards and our guards, as evidenced by the total lack of fast break points we are giving up these last few games, are getting back and preventing the break.

Our guards are getting back on DEFENSE which makes it harder to get DEFENSIVE rebounds? You definitely lost me there.

My fault, I went into why we suck on the offensive boards too. I have no idea what the hell our guards are doing on the defensive end.

And back to the shot blockign thing, there is a very clear relation to Josh increase in blocks and decrease in defensive rebounds. He challenges more shots, thus is in worse position for rebounds.

Plus, Smith is 35th in the league in rebounds. 23 of those guys in front of him are starting Centers. So there are 12 non centers in the NBA out rebounding Josh Smith.

Of those 12 guys only Smith and Marion are averaging over a block a game. They challege less, get less and get more rebounds because they will be in better position.

[killbuckner]

Rip- there are 35 PF's who have a better rebound rate than Josh Smith out of 53 who have enough minutes to qualify. (rebound rate is the percentage of missed shots that a player rebounds) Mind you this is using ESPN's definition of who is a PF, not my own. Interestingly enough when you look at defensive rebounding only he comes in 29th. Way too much work for me to go through all 35 and see how many blocks a game they have- ESPN's sortable stats don't work that way. Someone like Yi actually pulls down a higher percentage of rebounds than Smith does. Smith might miss some due to going for the block, but I think part of it is simply needing to concentrate on that area a little more, particularly when the Hawks are giving up a lot of offensive rebounds. And when you think about it, an offensive rebound is probably more valuable than a block if you isolated out the numbers. (but this doesn't take into account the number of shots and plays "affected" but not actually blocked)

[tontoz]

In order for there to be a rebound there has to be a missed shot. The vast majority of missed shots are from jump shots and Smith doesn't challenge jump shots more than anyone else on the team.

Horford challenges jump shots but that doesn't stop him from getting 10 rebounds a game.

The shotblocking is just an excuse people use for Smith. The reality is that he just doesn't box out.

Just watch Smith underneath whenever an outside shot goes up.

[Rip2137]

Okay, but I just presented you with the rest of the league. At worse, he is number 12 in the league in rebounding amoung non centers.

And I think its a little insane to try and say he doesn't challenge anymore shots than anyone else on this team. there is no way you can draw that conclusion watching the game. Josh smith will challenge more 18 and out jump shots in one game than Al Horford will this month.

Put it this way, if Josh didn't go after blocks, ANY blocks, you have to say that he would be in positon for at least another 1-2 rebounds per game which would put him around 8.9-9.9 per game.

If he was getting .5 blocks per game like say Jamison or Dirk, that would by default mean he was challenging less shot. If he was challenging less shots, he could go for more rebounds.

If you want to say he could get more boards now, then fine, but it ridiculous to say that his shotblocking has nothing to do with his rebounding when only he and Shawn Marion are non Centers that block any shots and still are in the top 35 in rebounding. the two are obviously tied together.

[killbuckner]

Is it a good idea for the PF to be out there challenging an 18 foot jumper if it increases the likelyhood of an offensive rebound by a signficant amount?

[tontoz]

And I think its a little insane to try and say he doesn't challenge anymore shots than anyone else on this team.

You are just making stuff up to try and make your argument look coherent.

I said he doesn't challenge any more JUMPERS than other players. Inside he obviously challenges more shots but inside shots aren't were 80% of rebounds come from.

Okay, but I just presented you with the rest of the league. At worse, he is number 12 in the league in rebounding amoung non centers.

if your definition of centers includes any player that spends any time at center then Smith is a center too.

he and Shawn Marion are non Centers that block any shots and still are in the top 35 in rebounding. the two are obviously tied together.

The top shotblockers other than Smith also get a lot of rebounds. If a center goes for a block he won't be in position to get the rebound right?

The same argument you are using for Smith can be applied to Howard and Camby.

[tontoz]

but it ridiculous to say that his shotblocking has nothing to do with his rebounding when only he and Shawn Marion are non Centers that block any shots

There are very few non-centers period that actually get blocks so this statement is completely worthless.

[killbuckner]

And since when is Kevin Garnett a center?

[killbuckner]

David West also averages more than a block a game.

[Rip2137]

And I think its a little insane to try and say he doesn't challenge anymore shots than anyone else on this team.

You are just making stuff up to try and make your argument look coherent.

I said he doesn't challenge any more JUMPERS than other players. Inside he obviously challenges more shots but inside shots aren't were 80% of rebounds come from.

He does challenge more jumpers than Camby or Howard who you named below as examples. Smith Plays perimeter defense and at the rim defense. The others don't. Its not that tough to get what I am saying here.

Okay, but I just presented you with the rest of the league. At worse, he is number 12 in the league in rebounding amoung non centers.

if your definition of centers includes any player that spends any time at center then Smith is a center too.

Cute. I named 21 starting Centers and Kevin Garnett who is play more than half of his minutes at Center in Boston. Kedrick Perkins starts, but plays around 24 minutes a game this year and the rest of the time is James Posey You don't want to count him then fine.

21 of the top 35 rebounders are Centers leaving 14 to be non Centers.

he and Shawn Marion are non Centers that block any shots and still are in the top 35 in rebounding. the two are obviously tied together.

The top shotblockers other than Smith also get a lot of rebounds. If a center goes for a block he won't be in position to get the rebound right?

The same argument you are using for Smith can be applied to Howard and Camby.

A center that is last line of defense versus a PF that plays more perimeter defense than both those guys combined...hmmm...no difference there, huh?

[Rip2137]

David West also averages more than a block a game.

Missed him. Either way you are up to 3 or 4(if you count Garnett) guys in the whole league that goes after shotblocks and rebounds better than smith at a forward position.