Tim Hardaway Jr.

[PandaKidd]

The "theres no one at 15 they like so why draft and pay for it" is a complete excuse IMO. So does that explain what they did with Payne too?

Theres a problem witth the hawks front office whiffing on 1st round picks and now they are trading 1st rounders for a sophomore

[Jamaaliver]

But lets be clear...i am not saying the trade was a win or a loss...its year one. But people were quick to officially stamp the move a bust a few months in cant be the same ones saying "Well lets wait and see" a few months later. That just screams "I really want this move to fail because it supports something I believe."

You have to see that only offering two options on this move, either a failure or too early to tell, while not accepting a "win" vote makes no sense.

Again, a very fair point. But the reservations I and PK expressed were based more on the transaction itself. The fact we overpaid, the fact we bypassed a younger player under team control for more years, the fact we passed on THJ in the draft twice, the revelation he was coming off a major injury.

Those concerns can't suddenly be overcome because he's looked solid for 8 games and very good for two.

The value, the opportunity costs for me is the biggest issue and one I can't easily get past:



We had numerous options at #15 in the draft.

Wilcox said the Hawks had eight or nine offers for the 15th pick. Once the Thunder selected Murray State point guard Cameron Payne at No. 14, the Hawks decided to move back and then eventually acquire Hardaway.

We had numerous options at #19 in the draft.

Budenholzer said the Hawks were never close to moving up in the draft but got several offers once they traded down to the 19th pick.

HERE

[Jamaaliver]

And Jamal...im sorry man but you don't think it's weird that one page ago you were throwing around WOW's and gushing over Obre being kinda decent over 5 games but now want to temper the excitement over Tim's play?

I'm gonna quote you here, RIP:

I knew there would be a stretch where Dennis THJ would play well and the numbers would look skewed and my friend Jamal would throw a thread up. About a week and a half ago, nothing in this thread was true.

...their is no way you could have watched every game this season and think that Dennis THJ is ready to be a starter or that he would make this team better.

Mike Scotts emergence, Thabo's increased shooting efficiency and playing against backups will make some paper numbers look better...

it's not noteworthy because it is only true due to the last 6 games eight games. You are taking a 6 game stretch eight game sample and ignore the other 22 games 30+ games.

[Jamaaliver]

But people were quick to officially stamp the move a bust a few months in cant be the same ones saying "Well lets wait and see" a few months later. That just screams "I really want this move to fail because it supports something I believe."

You have to see that only offering two options on this move, either a failure or too early to tell, while not accepting a "win" vote makes no sense. Not saying that's totally what you are doing, but if you can't grade it a win due to the sample size, you can't grade it a loss either...

Final thing:

I still think we can get THJ up to snuff long term...to at least contribute.

But, MAN. The early returns have been undeniably disappointing.

We're still hopeful our coaching staff can at least help him find his niche on a winning team. The way Shumpert and JR Smith managed to help contribute to a top CLE team.

...I'm reserving judgment on THJ's abilities and fit until after the season. It's more about the value of that trade. The #15 pick we had last spring was simply worth more than THJ and a couple of future 2nd rounders. (In my humble opinion.)

Last year we gave up the 2015 Sixth Man of the Year (and the 2014 DPOY for the Spanish League) and got back little to no value as well. It's been a running theme for a few summers now from our Front Office.

This are all quotes I made in this thread. Repeatedly. Over a matter of months. I haven't wavered.

[Rip2137]

I...I don't think you proved what you think you proved.

Yes...all of that is still right about THJ or Dennis.

But again, how can the scale of the THJ deal be at best "wait and see" and at worse "This is a total bust of a deal."

That can't be the range unless you are trying to just prove you are right about something. if its "wait and see" its "wait and see". If you aren't willing to accept "win" as a option, you can't accept "lost" as one too. You don't get to act like a 5 game stretch by one player means the deal was a bust but a 8 game stretch by the other player is wait and see. That's what I am saying man.

Now if I was suddenly screaming start THJ over Baze or Korver and he is the SG of the future, then yeah, that would be hypocritical of me. Right now, he is looking slightly better than Lamar Pattersen did for stretches. But I am intrigued by his size, his ball handling, his defensive improvement, and his athleticism. He is very much a "wait and see' with you guys. I am just saying you can't be so dismissive of people saying the move was a "win" when you were already in the "this is a bust" train a few weeks ago. My point still remains. How is calling this a win any more short sighted than calling it a loss a few weeks back?

And much like you always pretend no action means no attempted action in the trade/free agency market, MAYBE 2 second rounders and a young wing was the best deal available and that's the one they took. Getting a bunch of offers doesn't mean they got a bunch of good offers.

[Geaux_Hawks]

The "theres no one at 15 they like so why draft and pay for it" is a complete excuse IMO. So does that explain what they did with Payne too?

Theres a problem witth the hawks front office whiffing on 1st round picks and now they are trading 1st rounders for a sophomore

But lets be clear...i am not saying the trade was a win or a loss...its year one. But people were quick to officially stamp the move a bust a few months in cant be the same ones saying "Well lets wait and see" a few months later. That just screams "I really want this move to fail because it supports something I believe."

You have to see that only offering two options on this move, either a failure or too early to tell, while not accepting a "win" vote makes no sense.

Again, a very fair point. But the reservations I and PK expressed were based more on the transaction itself. The fact we overpaid, the fact we bypassed a younger player under team control for more years, the fact we passed on THJ in the draft twice, the revelation he was coming off a major injury.

Those concerns can't suddenly be overcome because he's looked solid for 8 games and very good for two.

The value, the opportunity costs for me is the biggest issue and one I can't easily get past:



We had numerous options at #15 in the draft.

Wilcox said the Hawks had eight or nine offers for the 15th pick. Once the Thunder selected Murray State point guard Cameron Payne at No. 14, the Hawks decided to move back and then eventually acquire Hardaway.

We had numerous options at #19 in the draft.

Budenholzer said the Hawks were never close to moving up in the draft but got several offers once they traded down to the 19th pick.

HERE

I think what it boiled down to is that the Hawks saw some potential in THJ that they wanted for themselves. If they had so many offers, and the only offer they accepted was for THJ and some 2nds, then must really like what THJ has to offer them and are willing to take a gamble and make him into the player they think he can be.

To add to that, I think the Hawks would rather remain a competent playoff team with Horford and Sap as long as possible, and didn't see the need in just having Portis as a backup over possibly tapping into whatever potential THJ may have considering they need a replacement for Korver; Thabo is strictly a defensive stopper; they didn't know what Baze could really do for them; and they may felt 2016 is the time to address PF/C.

You may ask,"Well why didn't they just take Oubre then?". I would only think that they don't want to wait 3 or 4 years to see Oubre develop. Again, in their eyes, they may be looking back at THJ's rookie year where he showed a some nice flashes of being a great, quality player and thought this is who they would rather have and work with with as he may turn into a solid player a lot faster.

The past 2 years, the Hawks have searched the junkyard for wings and have gotten the most out of what they have brought in. Now THJ seems to be the 3rd guy, and potential long term solution at the 2 guard. We will find out if this trade was good or bad in the near future.

[King Ken]

I was probably the most pissed about the trade but he had decent potential so I was not extremely mad. Just didn't see the value. In the beginning, he was struggling in the D League and that was disappointing but he overcame that and has become a key player off the bench for us. He has had the biggest ascension of any Hawk I've seen since Alan Henderson.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[DaKnicksAreBack]

Knick fan here. I'm glad to see Tim playing well again. The first half of his rookie year he shot the ball tremendously, then he hit the rookie wall a little bit and struggled. In his second year he hurt his wrist which held him back big time on the offensive end. He did improve his defense which was horrible during his rookie season. I believe under coach Bud his defense will get better. The bottom line about Tim is he has potential to be a lights out shooter. He also can be great in transition, his speed is elite. I really think you guys have a very good player on your hands, who has potential to be an allstar.

[Jamaaliver]

...That just screams "I really want this move to fail because it supports something I believe."

You have to see that only offering two options on this move, either a failure or too early to tell, while not accepting a "win" vote makes no sense.

But again, how can the scale of the THJ deal be at best "wait and see" and at worse "This is a total bust of a deal."

I am just saying you can't be so dismissive of people saying the move was a "win" when you were already in the "this is a bust" train a few weeks ago. My point still remains. How is calling this a win any more short sighted than calling it a loss a few weeks back?

But here's the thing. I haven't been saying that. I've never based the worthiness of this trade on THJ's performance...it's ALWAYS, in my mind, been about the cost.

I have been consistent in my criticism for the last 8 months. I have more than a dozen posts IN THIS THREAD specifying my issue. It's on the transaction, the trade, the decision of our GM. Not the player. I have out of my way to be optimistic and fair on this kid:

The issue isn't what Bud thinks he can get THJ to be in the system. The issue is VALUE. Hardaway, coming off a terrible season, simply wasn't worth the 19th pick straight up. Knicks underpaid, cleared an ill fitting piece from their roster and still got a kid they like in Grant.

June 2015

If THJ goes on to have a long and prosperous Hawks career...GREAT. We'll have done well in the trade. (Particularly if no one drafted at 19 or later turns into a NBA caliber player.

But none of that changes the fact that AT THE TIME OF THE TRANSACTION we paid more than anything NYK could have possibly hoped to get elsewhere.

October 21 2015

Still early, and hopefully he gets in tonight's game against CHA. 2nd night of a back-to-back for us...he'll have fresh legs along with Thabo. Gotta keep this kid's confidence up.

Sounds like THJ is still trying to figure it out and Bud isn't throwing him under the bus for struggling with the adjustment.

I liked THJ. But it burns, badly, that we threw away another 1st rounder on him. Bud, above, states the first year might not be ideal...but we only have him for a single year after this before we have to commit longer term. He overpaid, vastly, on an unnecessary gamble.

Dec 22 2015

THJ had a big night Tuesday in the D-League. here's hoping this is the start of something good for the young man.

We need him...

Dec 30 2015

I'm definitely glad THJ is in the rotation at last. Hopefully he can put together a nice run and claim a position moving forward. He likely only has 3 more months of basketball before the team must decide on his future for the 2017-2018 season.

January 2016

[Jamaaliver]

THJ has played better and looks like an actual NBA rotation player, but giving up yet another mid-first round draft pick for modest returns will continue to effect us negatively moving forward.

March 2 2016

Based on his age, contract status and limited production...I'm still reticent to claim THJ as a definite long term piece or dependable contributor.

I'd acknowledge that acquiring THJ looks much better today than it did six months ago, however.

March 15 2016

I only got to see a bit of last night's game...but I have to re-iterate how much better THJ looks now compared to a couple of months ago.

Shout out to the assistant coaches and the trainers.

I really would like to see THJ get another start with our starting 4 against better competition. Just to make sure this wasn't a mirage against a young team still learning the ropes.

Four Days ago

[PandaKidd]

Since the all star break

[Jamaaliver]

Since the all star break

That efficiency is undeniably fantastic...

But is it sustainable?

The law of averages has to kick in at some point, right? He can't be as terrible of a shooter as he was in November. But he can't be as wonderful as he's looked since February.

Where does it all balance out?

[PandaKidd]

Im sure itll balance out, but , just giving credit where credit is due.

[jayu70]

Since the all star break

That efficiency is undeniably fantastic...

But is it sustainable?

The law of averages has to kick in at some point, right? He can't be as terrible of a shooter as he was in November. But he can't be as wonderful as he's looked since February.

Where does it all balance out?

4 games played in November (then he sat for 15 games) for a total of 43.72 minutes. He took 13 shots made 3.
He has now played 3 times as many games in March as he did in November.

[Jamaaliver]

4 games played in November (then he sat for 15 games) for a total of 43.72 minutes. He took 13 shots made 3.
He has now played 3 times as many games in March as he did in November.

Ugh...

Why do you think he only played 4 games in November? Perhaps, because he was playing terribly? Because he was shooting poorly?

The ultimate point of the question is where is the middle ground? What's the reasonable expectation?

Can we count on him continuing the 50% 3-pt shooting he's been putting up this month? Or is it closer to the 25% 3-pt shooting he put forth in November...and...January...and...February?

But is it sustainable? Where does it all balance out?

[jayu70]

4 games played in November (then he sat for 15 games) for a total of 43.72 minutes. He took 13 shots made 3.
He has now played 3 times as many games in March as he did in November.

Ugh...

Why do you think he only played 4 games in November? Perhaps, because he was playing terribly? Because he was shooting poorly?

The ultimate point of the question is where is the middle ground? What's the reasonable expectation?

Can we count on him continuing the 50% 3-pt shooting he's been putting up this month? Or is it closer to the 25% 3-pt shooting he put forth in November...and...January...and...February?

But is it sustainable? Where does it all balance out?

Doesn't matter why he only played 4 games...the fact remains he played 4 games total in November. So if you wanna use those 4 games as your baseline....have at it.

[Rip2137]

Sporatic minutes=sporatic shooting. Using his numbers when playing 4 times in a month recovering from injury is silly. He was a 35% three point shooter coming to .Atlanta He is right at 35% for the season. I expect him to realistically be a 38-40% shooter from three as he is taking better shots than those chuckathons in New York.

[Jamaaliver]

He was a 35% three point shooter coming to .Atlanta He is right at 35% for the season. I expect him to realistically be a 38-40% shooter from three as he is taking better shots than those chuckathons in New York.

Again, the ultimate point of the question is what we should expect moving forward.

This answers that. Thank you.

(Seriously, I'm not trying to argue over every single semantic. I'm really not. He played poorly at the start of the season. Now he's playing wonderfully. What should we expect moving forward? That's all I was asking.)

[Jamaaliver]

The Tim Hardaway, Jr redemption tour begins now:

Hardaway Jr. won't be left out again after 'magnificent' summer

By all accounts from Hawks coaches and players, the shooting guard had a “magnificent” summer in preparation for the upcoming NBA season.

But, make no mistake about what motivates Tim Hardaway Jr. After being acquired in a draft-night trade with the Knicks last year, the former first-round pick did not play in 31 of the team’s first 35 games. That was not going to happen again.


“I think it was a magnificent summer for me,” Hardaway said. “I haven’t been in this good of shape since my rookie year, especially going in with all the player development guys and assistant coaches. They definitely helped me get that confidence back. It helped going from the season with that momentum of going to workouts, weight lifting, conditioning and basketball core work.”


Coach Mike Budenholzer has been impressed with what Hardaway has accomplished since the Hawks season ended in May. Budenholzer sees a renewed confidence but also a stronger, more explosive body and an improved skill set including shooting, passing, reading defenses and decision making.

Here

[Jamaaliver]

Read on Twitter

Tim Hardaway Jr. learned how to forge his own path after years of struggles


Tim Hardaway Jr. spent most of last season sitting on the Hawks’ bench. He was dropped to the NBA Development League, almost three years after being a first-round pick. He knew how he needed to respond.

The results are showing. He’s scored in double digits on 16 occasions this fall — after 12 such games all of last season — averaging 11.4 points a night. Hardaway is playing the best basketball of his career, a key piece of one of the best benches in the NBA. While the Hawks have slipped to 12-13 on the year, Hardaway has been consistent and recently slid into the starting lineup...

HERE