Game 35: Atlanta VS Milwaukee

[tontoz]

If Dwight Howard goes for a block then that means he isn't in position for the rebound. If Camby goes for a block then that means he isn't in position for a rebound.

Dumb argument

How many guys Smiths size or smaller actually block shots? Very few. So any argument using players similar to Smith is ridiculous simply because there aren't many players like Simth.

[Rip2137]

but it ridiculous to say that his shotblocking has nothing to do with his rebounding when only he and Shawn Marion are non Centers that block any shots

There are very few non-centers period that actually get blocks so this statement is completely worthless.

13 guys avearage over a block a game at non center positions(if you want to count KG) and only Marion and KG out rebound him. Call it worthless, no one else is doing it.

[tontoz]

-= original quote snipped =-



Missed him. Either way you are up to 3 or 4(if you count Garnett) guys in the whole league that goes after shotblocks and rebounds better than smith at a forward position.

How many non-centers average more than 1.5 blocks per game?

[tontoz]

-= original quote snipped =-



13 guys avearage over a block a game at non center positions(if you want to count KG) and only Marion and KG out rebound him. Call it worthless, no one else is doing it.

Your non-center argument is irrelevant because IF A CENTER GOES FOR A BLOCK IT TAKES HIM OUT OF REBOUNDING POSITION.

Comparing a guy who gets one block per game to Smith, who gets 3, is dumb anyway.

[Rip2137]

If Dwight Howard goes for a block then that means he isn't in position for the rebound. If Camby goes for a block then that means he isn't in position for a rebound.

Dumb argument

How many guys Smiths size or smaller actually block shots? Very few. So any argument using players similar to Smith is ridiculous simply because there aren't many players like Simth.

But you argument is that he doens't rebound well for a PF.

He actually blocks shots, which other PF's don't do. He averages around 1-2 rebounds less than them. He blocks roughly 3 times as many shots as they do.

You are trying to say that the two are in no way connected. I am saying that is insane to try and say so.

I am asking you, yes or no question, are you telling me that if Smith didn't go for shotblocks, that he wouldn't get more rebounds?

Because the PF's that get more rebounds than Smith don't go for nearly as many shotblocks as he does. And while you are bringing up Dwight Howard, he doesn't go after them as much as Smith either. Smith goes for blocks more than nearly every player in the NBA.

And on top of that, is your argument Josh Smith isn't rebounding that well because 7 foot with 7'5" wingspan Marcus Camby and 7 foot tall with 7'3" wing span Dwight Howard rebound better than him? REALLY?

[JoshB914]

Smoove is an average rebounder over his career. But he has been far below his usual this season. Looking past the stats, he just has been getting beat to the ball on boards.

If we give up this many o boards how can we possibly not point the figure at our starting C and PF? Is this all Zaza's fault too even though he hasn't been on the floor? Or do we blame Woody for this one?

[tontoz]

He actually blocks shots, which other PF's don't do. He averages around 1-2 rebounds less than them. He blocks roughly 3 times as many shots as they do.

You are trying to say that the two are in no way connected. I am saying that is insane to try and say so.

if shotblocking and rebounding were so highly connected at the 4 THEN THEY WOULD ALSO BE HIGHLY CONNECTED AT THE 5.

You can't say they are connected at the 4 while at the same time saying they aren't connected at the 5 which is EXACTLY what you are saying.

[Rip2137]

-= original quote snipped =-




Your non-center argument is irrelevant because IF A CENTER GOES FOR A BLOCK IT TAKES HIM OUT OF REBOUNDING POSITION.

Comparing a guy who gets one block per game to Smith, who gets 3, is dumb anyway.

What the hell do you want? Smith goes after more shots. that takes him ot of rebounding position. A guy that is averaging .5 blocks a game has more rebounds a game than him? Well, no crap? Josh is successfully blocking 3 and a half shots a game and challenging about twice that. PLUS he is still on the perimeter challenging shots, something that the VAST majority of Centers don't do at all.

Its pretty cut and dry here. The guy that probably goes after more shots than any other guy in the league is averaging 7.9 rebounds when he could probably be around 9.5 if he didn't challenge all those shots. Its not rocket science here. Smith trys to block more shots than EVERY other player in the NBA. Camby might get more but smith is out on the perimeter trying to block jumpers too, something that Camby doesn't do.

Yes, he is going to have a few less rebounds than other PF's that don't go after shots AT ALL. Only David West, Shawn Marion and Kevin Garnett average more rebounds than him and still manage to block over ONE shot a game. Josh is closer to 4.

Marvin should have his ass on the boards more because its not like he is going after shots the way Smith does. But saying the guy challenging more shots than anyone else should also be able to rebound better than guys not doing so is kinda ridiculous.

[tontoz]

I am asking you, yes or no question, are you telling me that if Smith didn't go for shotblocks, that he wouldn't get more rebounds?

The effect would be marginal for a simple reason. Most of the shots Smith is blocking are inside shots that most likely would have gone in anyway if Smith hadn't challenged them.

What you keep ignoring is that the vast majority of rebounds come from missed outide shots and Smith has just as good a chance at rebounding those as Horford does.

[Rip2137]

Smoove is an average rebounder over his career. But he has been far below his usual this season. Looking past the stats, he just has been getting beat to the ball on boards.

If we give up this many o boards how can we possibly not point the figure at our starting C and PF? Is this all Zaza's fault too even though he hasn't been on the floor? Or do we blame Woody for this one?

You point to the 6'9" SF and the 6'8" shooting guard that aren't helping on the boards at all or once a week or when they feel like it.
Horford is doing his part, obviously, and Smith is putting up average numbers for a PF while putting up WAY above average shotblocking numbers, which clearly effects rebounding.

[tontoz]

Horford is doing his part, obviously, and Smith is putting up average numbers for a PF while putting up WAY above average shotblocking numbers, which clearly effects rebounding.

Dwight Howards shotblocking is sure killing his rebounding.

[killbuckner]

Rip- you are still saying that Josh could be a better rebounder if he wanted to. The point is that he should want to when the Hawks are getting beat on the boards. If the Hawks are giving up a lot of offensive rebounds because he is trying to block so many shots then he needs to pick and choose his spots better. Because when it comes down to it Smith is a below average rebounder for a PF when you control for playing time.

[HoopsGuru25]

I am asking you, yes or no question, are you telling me that if Smith didn't go for shotblocks, that he wouldn't get more rebounds?

The effect would be marginal for a simple reason. Most of the shots Smith is blocking are inside shots that most likely would have gone in anyway if Smith hadn't challenged them.

What you keep ignoring is that the vast majority of rebounds come from missed outide shots and Smith has just as good a chance at rebounding those as Horford does.

Exactly...most of Smith's blocks are layups and dunks...shots that have a very good chance of scoring if he didn't block them. I don't see where his blocks really impact his rebounding totals(7.9 to 9.5?).

[JoshB914]

What Rip? Are you really saying that most of the blame for us giving up offensive boards is on our SG and SF? I just don't see how that can be true. Sure they get some, but Horford and Smoove are the guys that are supposed to be our main rebounders.

[tontoz]

THE TOP 2 REBOUNDERS IN THE LEAGUE ARE HOWARD AND CAMBY. THEY ARE BOTH TOP 5 IN BLOCKS.

CASE DISMISSED

[Rip2137]

Rip- you are still saying that Josh could be a better rebounder if he wanted to. The point is that he should want to when the Hawks are getting beat on the boards. If the Hawks are giving up a lot of offensive rebounds because he is trying to block so many shots then he needs to pick and choose his spots better. Because when it comes down to it Smith is a below average rebounder for a PF when you control for playing time.

That I don't disagree with. He shouldn't go after every shot...true.

But at teh same time, if you know your PF is a ball hawk and is covering for you defensive mess ups all the time, maybe its time for those similarly sized players around him that aren't rebounding or blocking shots to do one or the other.

And you can say below average rebounder, but still, alot of the guys above him aren't just non shot challengers. They are absolutely horrific defensive players. Guys like Randolph, Dirk, Boozer...for every rebound they get, they are giving up 3-4 points. If I had to pick or chose, I would take Joshs 3 blocks and 8 rebounds over 11 rebounds and those guys defense.

[Rip2137]

What Rip? Are you really saying that most of the blame for us giving up offensive boards is on our SG and SF? I just don't see how that can be true. Sure they get some, but Horford and Smoove are the guys that are supposed to be our main rebounders.

And sadly, they are. But comeon, if you have a guy that is going to be your main...only shotblocker, plays perimeter D also on switches, you ahve to get more than 5.7 rebounds out of your BIG SF and you have to get more than 4.whatever joe is averaging out of your BIG SG.

They can't have Josh play a non traditional role at the PF, then you can't have your SF and SG floating around not wanting to rebound. They are under 10 rebounds COMBINED for two guys over 6'8". That is pretty ridiculous.

THE TOP 2 REBOUNDERS IN THE LEAGUE ARE HOWARD AND CAMBY. THEY ARE BOTH TOP 5 IN BLOCKS.

CASE DISMISSED

I still don't get how you don't get simple logic here.

Take the last game. Josh smith probably challeged 7-8 jumpshots on the perimeter. Not even going for the block, just runouts with his hand up on a guy at the three point line or a step or two in.

Camby and Howard might do that twice a game tops. You are trying to compare a guy that defends from the perimeter in to two guys that defend from the free throw line in...and thats stretching it.

You want to use Marion as an example then fine. He defends the same areas and Smith and out rebounds him handily. Be get the heck outta here with that Camby and Howard crap. they spend 90% of their time 3 feet from the basket.

In the toronto game, just count how many jumpers Smith will challenge. The number you come up with will be 3-4 times what Howard and Camby will challenge on any given night.

You are trying to compare apples to oranges.

[JoshB914]

Rip you can talk about philosiphy and Zach Randolph all you want, but the bottom line is we give up a ton of offensive boards and that is directly correlated with our low post players rebounding. Obviously there are other factors, but to sit here and absolve Smoove from blame because he "challenges a lot of shots" is crazy talk.

[killbuckner]

Rip- have you considered that many PF's don't go for as many blocked shots as they could because it leaves their team too vulnerable to offensive rebounds? If he is guarding a PF and he leaves that guy to challenge an outside shot, he better have a very high likelyhood of blocking it or else it was probably a bad choice. I think that if KG cared less about defensive rebounding that he would block a lot more shots as well. THis cuts both ways. And when the Hawks are giving up offensive rebounds Smith should be focusing on rebounding more.

But I do think that Horford's rebound numbers are somewhat inflated due to playing next to Smith. (I wonder if this is why Zaza and Shelden's rebounding numbers have gone down so much this season- maybe they aren't playing next to smith as much?) I really worry that Marvin's rebounding numbers are also inflated due to playing next to Smith.

[Harry10]

flat out...... Bucks just did a great job a doubling Joe on every possession, one of the best i have ever seen.

after seeing how they played Joe in the first half, i wish Woody would have made adjustments, and run the offense through Smoove and Marvin and let Joe feed off of them and run some screens for for Joe for some jumpshots.