Josh's Problem with Authority

[Jamaaliver]

Dude, I have to agree with everything you just wrote. Josh was done a disservice in the player development department. Especially since we kept drafting PFs and SFs year after year. Even now we switch him between positions almost weekly.

I suspect a stronger, more respected coach and a capable, veteran PG could have molded him into a top player at his position.

At this point, it's more the mental miscues that bother me. When he sulks, or yells at the coach, or doesn't get back on defense, or makes a lazy pass that gets stolen.

That year he won the dunk contest I thought we had a rising star on our hands. I keep waiting, but that was 7 years ago.

It's even more frustrating that every year when he gets snubbed by the All-Star team he starts putting up incredible numbers...why can't he just do that all the time?

The Hawks organization never did him any favors over the years; it's painful to think what could have been.

[PandaKidd]

Josh Smith is like our Jake Plummer. That guy thats a GREAT talent, that we are always waiting for to take that next step...........but he never does. We see flashes of it from time to time, but he never fully ascends. I dont know if i buy completely into the "josh smith is a head case" or "josh smith" is uncoachable" that a lot of people say about him.

At this point i dont know what to do to make him happy. At this point what do we know? We know we have Horford locked in. What is Teagues contract? Teague i think we do what it takes to keep him. Its too hard not have a good penetration and passing PG. Teague is worth the investment.

Id consider keeping Korver around hes a cheap scorer. I would love to keep Lou Will.

I dont know what we could get for Josh, the Pau Gasol trade is prob 2 years too late, and the Lakers have no picks left. Josh is too valuable to just let him walk.

This offseason will be interesting

[ATL Boy]

Josh Smith is like our Jake Plummer. That guy thats a GREAT talent, that we are always waiting for to take that next step...........but he never does. We see flashes of it from time to time, but he never fully ascends. I dont know if i buy completely into the "josh smith is a head case" or "josh smith" is uncoachable" that a lot of people say about him.

At this point i dont know what to do to make him happy. At this point what do we know? We know we have Horford locked in. What is Teagues contract? Teague i think we do what it takes to keep him. Its too hard not have a good penetration and passing PG. Teague is worth the investment.

Id consider keeping Korver around hes a cheap scorer. I would love to keep Lou Will.

I dont know what we could get for Josh, the Pau Gasol trade is prob 2 years too late, and the Lakers have no picks left. Josh is too valuable to just let him walk.

This offseason will be interesting

Just answering some contract questions here. Horford is locked in at 12 million per year for 3 more years which is an absolute bargain for an all-star; Teague is in the final year of his contract but he's a restricted free agent so we can match any offer he receives this summer, he should get an offer in the vicinity of 8-10 million per year for 4 years, or if we just outright sign him we could give him 8-10 million per year for an extra 5th year. Korver is making 5 mil this season and is an expiring, his contract does however have a clause that if we cut him we only have to pay him around 750K, not sure about the exact number but I do know that it's less than 1 million. And Lou is signed in for the MLE, he's receiving 5 mil this year with increases in the following years, being the dominate bench player that he is he could've signed in to make 7-8 million per year but he's from Atlanta and loves the city so much that he gave us the hometown discount.

[parson]

The problem with dumping Smith (or Horford or Teague) is we're doing so with the HOPE of drafting/signing someone better. Why not just GROW the team? If Smith ever "gets it" we'll have a superstar. If Horford takes it up just one notch, we'll have another superstar. If Teague takes his talent and becomes a true PG, we'll have a 3rd superstar. Contrast that with the idea of continually dumping assets to try to draft a star.

Then look to try to add a FA who'll fit in to what we already have and grow with us.

[Jamaaliver]

The problem with dumping Smith (or Horford or Teague) is we're doing so with the HOPE of drafting/signing someone better. Why not just GROW the team

I think that's what we've been doing. Drafting, growing players, dumping players that don't work out. It's made us competitive. We just need more development and production from the draftees.

And after 9 years, I'm done waiting on Josh. He is what he is.

In almost a decade here, his career averages are 15 ppg & 7rpg.

His season averages are 15 ppg & 7 rpg.

19 year olds have untapped potential. 27 year olds...not so much.

[parson]

One thing to consider is that Joe took so much of our offense on his back - for good and bad - that it interfered with anyone else's development. Smith raised his game last year with Horford out, let's see what he looks like without Joe.

To me, that's most of what we're doing: letting the players (especially Smith, Horford and Teague) take on more responsibilities while we try to impress a major FA.

[PandaKidd]

One thing to consider is that Joe took so much of our offense on his back - for good and bad - that it interfered with anyone else's development. Smith raised his game last year with Horford out, let's see what he looks like without Joe.

To me, that's most of what we're doing: letting the players (especially Smith, Horford and Teague) take on more responsibilities while we try to impress a major FA.

Simple question, would you sign Josh Smith to a max contract right now. Just hypothetically. Because if we dont trade him, that is what we will have to do.

It becomes the age old question, do we max him out, or do we get something for him now, and hope we can replace him with someone else.

Also, his production isnt THAT hard to replace, theres a host of guys who average double doubles for little to no money. Kris Humphries last year, Lopez is being paid 15 mill a year hes 19/6 right now, a host of people can fill his role, they are out there.

His defensive capabilities and his rebounding do factor in , theres more than just PPG i understand. But i dont think Josh Smith is irreplaceable.

Lets be honest, Josh Smith is a CAREER 15/8 guy. Hes averaging fewest points so far this year since his sophomore season.

Heres comparable F averaging between 14-16PPG this season
16
David Lee , GSW
14 37.5 16.4 6.9-14.9 .466 .0-.1 .000 2.6-3.4 .766
17
* Anthony Davis , NOH
6 28.3 16.0 5.8-11.8 .493 .0-.3 .000 4.3-5.2 .839
18
Chandler Parsons , HOU
13 37.8 15.5 5.7-12.1 .471 2.4-5.8 .413 1.8-2.4 .742
19
Nene Hilario , WAS
2 24.4 15.5 5.0-9.0 .556 .0-.0 .000 5.5-7.0 .786
20
Josh Smith , ATL
11 34.9 15.2 6.8-15.5 .439 .3-1.0 .273 1.3-2.9 .438
21
Danilo Gallinari , DEN
14 33.7 15.1 5.2-14.0 .372 1.3-5.5 .234 3.4-4.4 .774
22
Glen Davis , ORL
13 32.1 14.9 6.3-15.1 .418 .0-.2 .000 2.3-3.3 .698
23
Carl Landry , GSW
14 26.5 14.8 5.4-9.0 .595 .0-.1 .000 4.1-5.2 .781
24
Serge Ibaka , OKC
15 32.3 14.5 5.9-10.3 .574 .1-.7 .200 2.5-2.8 .881
25
Carlos Boozer , CHI
13 30.3 14.4 6.2-13.3 .462 .0-.0 .000 2.1-2.8 .730
26
Paul Millsap , UTA
15 30.3 14.1 5.3-11.5 .459 .7-1.3 .526 2.9-4.1 .705
27
Metta World Peace , LAL
14 34.9 14.0 4.6-10.6 .436 2.4-6.2 .391 2.3-2.9 .800

[PandaKidd]

Here are people averaging the same number of Double Doubles

11
LaMarcus Aldridge , POR
13 37.9 20.6 7.5 3.0 .8 1.3 4 0
11
Kris Humphries , BKN
13 25.0 8.1 8.6 .7 .4 .7 4 0
11
Andrei Kirilenko , MIN
12 36.0 12.9 7.9 3.2 1.7 1.8 4 0
11
Paul Millsap , UTA
15 30.3 14.1 8.4 2.3 .9 1.1 4 0
11
Chandler Parsons , HOU
13 37.8 15.5 7.0 3.5 1.1 .2 4 0
11
Josh Smith , ATL
11 34.9 15.2 7.1 3.5 1.2 2.1 4 0
11
Tristan Thompson , CLE
14 30.1 9.2 7.9 1.4 .9 .4 4 0
11
Thaddeus Young , PHI
14 35.6 13.6 7.9 1.4 1.6 .8 4

[myrak433]

Here are people averaging the same number of Double Doubles

11
LaMarcus Aldridge , POR
13 37.9 20.6 7.5 3.0 .8 1.3 4 0
11
Kris Humphries , BKN
13 25.0 8.1 8.6 .7 .4 .7 4 0
11
Andrei Kirilenko , MIN
12 36.0 12.9 7.9 3.2 1.7 1.8 4 0
11
Paul Millsap , UTA
15 30.3 14.1 8.4 2.3 .9 1.1 4 0
11
Chandler Parsons , HOU
13 37.8 15.5 7.0 3.5 1.1 .2 4 0
11
Josh Smith , ATL
11 34.9 15.2 7.1 3.5 1.2 2.1 4 0
11
Tristan Thompson , CLE
14 30.1 9.2 7.9 1.4 .9 .4 4 0
11
Thaddeus Young , PHI
14 35.6 13.6 7.9 1.4 1.6 .8 4

This is misleading..... most of the players on this list are not the number one option on offense, or even the second option. It should be command knowledge that when you are the first or second option you will get more attention from a defensive standpoint. So comparing Josh Smith’s stats to the likes of Tristan Thompson is just asinine. If you get a true number one option then see if Josh Smith improves. LaMarcus Aldridge……. Yeah I would take him over Smoove but Kris Humphries “C’MON MAN!!!!!!”

[parson]

Also, his production isnt THAT hard to replace, theres a host of guys who average double doubles for little to no money. His defensive capabilities and his rebounding do factor in , theres more than just PPG i understand. But i dont think Josh Smith is irreplaceable.

For "little or no money"? I don't think so. But even if we could, you're ignoring ALL the ways that Smith can fill up a stat sheet: he steals, passes, blocks shots - just for 3. He runs the floor with a speed that most rebounders can't. How many times have we seen him erase a fast break with a block that came out of nowhere?

Your entire argument is that whatever's behind curtain #3 is better than a Smith in the hand.

As for your next post, I must be missing something because it seems to me that your post contradicts your own argument. The players you mentioned are making about what Smith makes, or will after free agency or their rookie contracts are done.

David Lee, $12,744,000 , $13,878,000 , $15,012,000 , $15,493,680

Anthony Davis , Rookie contract. TRY to get him and tell me how it works out.

Nene Hilario , $13,000,000, $13,000,000 , $13,000,000 , $13,000,000

Danilo Gallinari, $9,439,000, $10,146,92, $10,854,850, $11,559,225

Glen Davis, $6,400,000 , $6,400,000 , $6,600,000, Really? Although he makes half of what Smith makes, he's worth less than that.

Carl Landry, $4,000,000, $4,000,000. Ha.

Serge Ibaka, $2,253,062, $12,350,000, $12,350,000, $12,350,000, $12,350,000.

Carlos Boozer, $15,000,000, $15,300,000 , $16,800,000. How'd he get on this list?

Metta World Peace, $7,258,960, $7,727,280. I'm just gonna pretend you didn't mention this man.

LaMarcus Aldridge , $13,500,000, $14,628,000, $15,756,000

Kris Humphries , $12,000,000, $12,000,000

Andrei Kirilenko , $9,779,349, $10,219,420

Paul Millsap , $8,603,633 And about to be paid.

Chandler Parsons , Rookie contract.

Tristan Thompson , Rookie contract.

Thaddeus Young , $8,289,130, $8,850,00, $9,410,869, $9,971,739

[PandaKidd]

You didnt answer my question, would you pay Josh Smith a max contract after this season? Is he a premier Franchise player?

I also said that PPG isnt the only factor, joshs defense and athleticism isnt in the stats so much, but Im honestly willing to give that up. I just dont think hes that hard to replace looking at people around the league and production numbers.

Double Doubles are just relevant i dont care what the excuse is. Talk **** about Kris Humphries all you want, but hes a double double machine last year and he was CHEAP.

Again, Josh Smith is a 15PPG 8 Reb CAREER player. Anyone see the 20% drop in FT% so far this year? Do not tell me he is not replaceable. I dont see how you can value him so high given A) hes not even an allstar after 9 seasons B) Hes not even in the top 5 at his position.

I love Josh Smith but Im also being realistic. He goes, Horfords production will go up. Horford has a much more valuable upside at this point.

[Jamaaliver]

I think we can all agree Josh is not capable of being a #1 option and this is not a max player.

For what he's paid, we can find a player or combination of players to produce what he does.

No one on our team is irreplaceable.

[Jamaaliver]

If you get a true number one option then see if Josh Smith improves.

Like how Bosh's numbers increased when h played with Lebron?

Like how Deng's numbers improved when he played with Rose?

Like how Harden had better numbers when he played with Durant?

Smith's numbers are likely to decrease if we acquire a #1 option. Not increase.

Just ask Joe Johnson.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Since when has it been a guarantee that it will take a max offer to retain Smith?

and Panda, do you realize how much credibility you lose when you compare Kris Humphries to Smith?

Kris gets ALL of his points from put-backs and layups created by other people. He is never asked to create his own shot or create for other like Smith is. He is nowhere close to the defender as Josh either.

[PandaKidd]

Since when has it been a guarantee that it will take a max offer to retain Smith?

and Panda, do you realize how much credibility you lose when you compare Kris Humphries to Smith?

Kris gets ALL of his points from put-backs and layups created by other people. He is never asked to create his own shot or create for other like Smith is. He is nowhere close to the defender as Josh either.

When did i compare Kris Humphries to Josh Smith? Youre putting words in my mouth.

My point was to show how easy it is to make up for what josh produces for CHEAP. You also have to realize the talent we could get for him in the form of draft picks or other pieces. Im in no way comparing player for player josh Smith with someone like Humphries, im showing how we can replace 15 points and 8 Reb per game with mediocre talent like Kris or the likes.

Ill play devils advocate and say that KMART is giving OKC just as much production as Harden but hes not the same type of player Harden was.

You dont think Josh Smith will get a max contract from somewhere else? I dont see him staying here for less than his maximum

[parson]

You didnt answer my question, would you pay Josh Smith a max contract after this season? Is he a premier Franchise player?

Well, I answered most of your questions, especially the claim that there are plenty of cheap replacements. YOUR LIST contradicted your claim. To answer this post's question, I don't know. I'd rather let the market establish a price for him. I'd also like to wait and see if he's going to attract Dwight Howard. If there's any chance of that happening, I think we need to hold onto Smith. If we lose him to free agency, we'll use the money we save with someone else.

I also said that PPG isnt the only factor, joshs defense and athleticism isnt in the stats so much, but Im honestly willing to give that up. I just dont think hes that hard to replace looking at people around the league and production numbers.

Double Doubles are just relevant i dont care what the excuse is. Talk **** about Kris Humphries all you want, but hes a double double machine last year and he was CHEAP.

Kris Humphries WAS cheap but he aint no more: this year he's $12,000,000, next year's $12,000,000. Again, look at your own list: your players say your point is wrong.

Again, Josh Smith is a 15PPG 8 Reb CAREER player. Anyone see the 20% drop in FT% so far this year? Do not tell me he is not replaceable. I dont see how you can value him so high given A) hes not even an allstar after 9 seasons B) Hes not even in the top 5 at his position.

He's a means to an end (Howard) and is still growing his game. Last year, when Horford went out, Smith showed things he'd never shown before.

I love Josh Smith but Im also being realistic. He goes, Horfords production will go up. Horford has a much more valuable upside at this point.

I'd trade Smith for an improvement in our roster and I've said that many times but to just give him up is too wasteful. If we weren't talking about a chance at getting Howard, I might now feel this way, but Smith does give us that chance.

[Jamaaliver]

Dwight and Josh are close, we know that.

But has Howard EVER expressed an interest in playing with Josh?

I know that list of NBA players that D Howard would like to play with someday includes Morrow, but was Josh on it?

Howard wanted to play with Deron Williams, live in NY and work for Jay-Z.

I've NEVER heard him mention, allude to, or hint at, wanting Josh to play with him. Even when Josh was a restricted FA, Orlando didn't sniff at Josh as a mean to appease Dwight.

Josh Smith had ONE good month. But he's had a mediocre career.

[Jamaaliver]

Josh is finally the featured player, the number one option, the unquestioned leader and best player on a pro team.

AND he's in a contract year...

But his behavior and play has been just as it always was. Uneven, unimpressive, and unsmart.

If he was ever going to produce top numbers, this would be the situation. maybe he'll turn it around. But, eight years of production tells us otherwise.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Since when has it been a guarantee that it will take a max offer to retain Smith?

and Panda, do you realize how much credibility you lose when you compare Kris Humphries to Smith?

Kris gets ALL of his points from put-backs and layups created by other people. He is never asked to create his own shot or create for other like Smith is. He is nowhere close to the defender as Josh either.

When did i compare Kris Humphries to Josh Smith? Youre putting words in my mouth.

My point was to show how easy it is to make up for what josh produces for CHEAP. You also have to realize the talent we could get for him in the form of draft picks or other pieces. Im in no way comparing player for player josh Smith with someone like Humphries, im showing how we can replace 15 points and 8 Reb per game with mediocre talent like Kris or the likes.

Ill play devils advocate and say that KMART is giving OKC just as much production as Harden but hes not the same type of player Harden was.

You dont think Josh Smith will get a max contract from somewhere else? I dont see him staying here for less than his maximum

Saying that Humphries can replace what Josh brings is comparing them. and Humphries isn't cheap.

Let me know when Humphries can fill up a stat sheet like Josh did with 17 pts, 12 boards, 6 asst, 5 blocks. 3 steals. Also, let me know when humphries consistently draws a double-team like Smith did tonight.

Your biggest mistake is just looking at the 15 and 8 and overlooking everything else that Josh brings to the team. He is the only player on our team that draws a double-team which is huge for getting open looks for our shooters. He can pretty much guard every position on the floor and he's a pretty solid passer for his position.

[Rip2137]

Kris Humphries is 12 million a year, and isn't half the defender.

But more than that, this thread is full of stat sheet watchers.

Watch the game. Watch Josh box guys out when he can't get the board(which is ODDLY becoming a lost art) especially when he is outsized. Watch his hockey assist. Watch him dictating the offence when he doesn't have the ball. Watch him dictating the D when he is on the court. Look at the defensive =/- when he is off the court. Watch him on switches. Watch him command attention which makes Al be able to play off the ball and use his quickness on Centers to get open. Does Josh take bad shots? Yes. So does ALMOST every good player in the league. if you looked objectively, you would see 4-5 shots Lebron, Carmelo, Kobe, Durant or others take a night and say "wow...that was a horrid shot" even if its made or not. The guy adds too much to the team for people to think you can just replace him with Tristian freakin Thompson.

I think its just you guys are far to close to recognize how good this guy is.

I am NOT against trading him. I would trade him for the likes of Okafor and Ariza if their contracts weren't stupid. I would trade him for Gortat and Morris, a combination of players from Houston....

But the fact is, to get his true production back, you have to take on contracts that are worse than his or just accept that you will be worse while spending comparible money. Would you rather save 3 million a year and be ALOT worse than you are now?