Game 35: Atlanta VS Milwaukee

[tontoz]

All I did was point out a statistical correlation between blocks and rebounds.

And there is none.

Before the Bucks game Smith was blocking 2.7 shots per game.

However he was averaging only 4.5 defensive rebounds per month compared to 6.28 the month before.

Last night Camby had 11 blocks and 17 defensive rebounds. Camby blocks from the weakside just like Smith but it doesn't hurt his rebounding.

This year Howard is averaging .6 more block per game and 2.8 more defensive rebounds per game than last year.

You can disagree that jumping for a block takes you out of position for a rebound if you want.

Nice strawman. I never said anything even remotely like that.

in order for their to be a rebound there has to be a missed shot. A layup or a dunk (which is where Smith gets a lot of his blocks) wouldn't be a rebound if Smith didn't contest them. They would be made baskets.


Time for you to wave the white flag. Bye.

[conleyorbust]

Actually there is a correlation because he was averaging 6.5 D rebounds a game last month and he pulled down 5 last night when he blocked 7 shots so that is still fewer.

Anyway like you said, not every contested shot is blocked and not every contested shot is a miss. Not every shot that is a miss is contested. If you jump really high to block a shot and the shot doesn't go in, you are going to have a tougher time getting the ball because it takes time for you to come down. You don't have to believe me but that is fact.

I think Smith should be smarter with when he goes for blocks too and I think he should concentrate more on rebounding. Lets stop arguing.

[killbuckner]

I have no idea what the argument is even about any more. I can't believe that anyone would actually try and say that SMith doesn't trade some rebounding to go for so many blocked shots. Does anyone really disagree that in games where the Hawks are getting destroyed on the offensive boards that Smith needs to concentrate in that area a little more even if it means that he doesn't block as many shots?

[tontoz]

Actually there is a correlation because he was averaging 6.5 D rebounds a game last month and he pulled down 5 last night when he blocked 7 shots so that is still fewer.

Ridiculous.

Smiths monthly defensive rebounding average for January WENT UP last game, not down.

He was averaging 2.7 blocks per game before last game and he was averaging 1.78 fewer defensive rebounds.

Your statistical correlation is nothing but nonsense.

[JoshB914]

There was a correlation in December Tontoz. The reason for it is the debate, not whether there was a correlation or not. And .5 bpg is a pretty big difference.

[tontoz]

There was a correlation in December Tontoz. The reason for it is the debate, not whether there was a correlation or not. And .5 bpg is a pretty big difference.

That is just plain dumb.

Before last game THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE between his blocks in december and his blocks this month. If you want to get technical his blocks were down by .1 . Smith had 7 blocks against the Bucks which pushed up his block average.

His rebounding average was way down this month before last game.

[tontoz]

I can't believe that anyone would actually try and say that SMith doesn't trade some rebounding to go for so many blocked shots.

The point conley is trying to make is that Smiths rebounding is down this month because he is blocking .5 more shots, which is absurd.

It is only the last game against the Bucks that pushed up his block averages. his rebounds were down before the bucks game.

[killbuckner]

but tontoz-- you do agree that Smith gives up some rebounding to go for so many blocked shots right?

[tontoz]

but tontoz-- you do agree that Smith gives up some rebounding to go for so many blocked shots right?

The only way that would be true is if Smith was actively trying to block shots that would have missed anyway and that he would have had the chance to rebound if he hadn't gone for the block. Those cases are very rare. Most of the shots he is trying to block are close to the rim and would have gone in if he hadn't contested them.

Of course he challenges some jump shots too but so does Horford.

If the correlation you make with Smith is true then it also applies to other players. Did Camby sacrifice rebounds to get blocks last night? he had 11 blocks and 17 defensive rebounds.

[tontoz]

kb- your correlation, even if true, wouldn't explain Smiths drop in defensive rebounding this month as compared to last month.

[killbuckner]

tontoz- absolutely I think that Camby would have had more rebounds if he didn't go for any blocked shots. I don't even see how that is remotely arguable.

And when in this thread have I ever tried to say anything about smiths rebounding this month compared to last month. (other than correcting your numbers when you had them wrong) I am the one that gave you the stat that before last game his blocked shots had dropped remember?

[tontoz]

I am the one that gave you the stat that before last game his blocked shots had dropped remember?

Of course

The fact is that Smiths defensive rebounding is below where it should be, which we both agree on. However i don't think he needs to sacrifice shot blocks in order to get more defensive rebounds. Last month is evidence of that.

All he needs to do is make a better effort at boxing out. I just think he has gotten lazy.

While blocking shots will pull a player out of rebounding position at times, that doesn't happen all the time. there are times when a player will block a shot (that otherwise would have gone in) and get the rebound. i would bet that happened a lot last night with Camby. That is part of the reason why the correlation you are trying to make works much better in theory than in practice.

Another reason is that so many of the shots Smith blocks, or attempts to block, are close to the basket and would have gone in if he hadn't contested them.

I finally went and looked at the game logs, looking at his blocks in relation to his defensive rebounds. I suggest you do the same.

[Rip2137]

So you simply aren't going to admit that Camby's defensive game and Joshs defensive game is nothing alike?

THats like asking why can't Kobe shoot at a FG% of Andrew Bynum. They both have to put the ball in the basket right? So they should be shooting the same percentage...Kobe is just lazy.

Should Smith average more rebounds? Yes. He should be around 8.5-9 a game with the type of defensive game he plays(which I wouldn't want him to sacrifice for more rebounds). He would still be a average rebounder for a PF but because of his role on the team and his role defensively, that is what should be expected. As it is, he is at 7.9 and goes after every shot. He needs to be more around 8.5 and challenge wisely.

[killbuckner]

Tontoz- I don't think that Josh is some games going for blocks and the next game not going for blocks. Sometimes he pays more attention to rebounding but for the most part he pretty much just tries to block anything he thinks he might be able to get to. But overall on the season that makes him a below average rebounder (for a PF) because of it. Smith is a good help defender. If he leaves the opposing PF to help and try and block a shot how on earth can you possibly think that doesn't hurt the Hawks on the glass if he doesn't make the block?

But I really think that you are arguing against a point that I never made. I think that you were arguing against someone else and just assumed I was picking up the other side.

[JoshB914]

Don't you guys realize that you all basically agree and are arguing over semantics?

[tontoz]

If he leaves the opposing PF to help and try and block a shot how on earth can you possibly think that doesn't hurt the Hawks on the glass if he doesn't make the block?

If that shot was a layup or a dunk he doesn't hurt the Hawks rebounding at all by going for the block. If he didn't go for the block there wouldn't have been a rebound to get.

[killbuckner]

tontoz- you have to be kidding me. You think that Smith only goes for blocks on layups and dunks? Which games are you watching? I think that Camby uses great judgment on which balls to try and block. Camby is also guarding opposing centers who are less of a scoring threat so its easier to slide off of them in help defense.

[tontoz]

tontoz- you have to be kidding me. You think that Smith only goes for blocks on layups and dunks?

No. But the majority of his blocks are on shots close to the rim.

Sure sometimes he goes for blocks on perimeter shots, but so does Horford. The hawks switch screens frequently so Horford will be guarding 1s and 2s a lot.

Smith got 2 blocks against the Nuggets. The Nuggets got 20 offensive rebounds. Smith got 2 defensive rebounds.

Where is the correlation?