Atlanta @ Toronto

[tontoz]

Tontoz- once again basic stats fail you. Look at law's PT and you will see the players that he has been paired up with the most. Here is the list in order:

Joe Johnson
Josh Smith
Marvin Williams
Josh Childress
Al Horford

Yeah- obviously he never gets to play with the best hawks players.

Once again basic common sense fails you.

Of course Law will play the most with the players who play the most minutes. The problem is he isn't playing with them at the same time. AJ has been doing that at the start of each game for two months.

[killbuckner]

Tontoz- its absolutely breathtaking how ridiculous you are about this topic. Do you really think that Law has played more with Wright than AJ has!? You seem to know that most of Law's minutes are played with the core hawks players but that doesn't seem to affect your judgement. You want to blame Law's horrid +/- on the guys he is playing with. Lets look at the core hawk players and their +/- while playing with all the different PG's.

Johnson +14 AJ -5 Lue -15 Acie
Smith -4 AJ +15 Lue -42 Acie
Horford +21 AJ -20 Lue -44 Acie
Marvin +3 AJ -6 Lue 0 Acie
Childress +14 AJ -5 Lue -19 Acie

I just find it hilarious that you think the consistency of these numbers is a fluke. You WANT to believe that his teammates are making Acie look bad but there just isn't any evidence of that. Combine these numbers with the fact that Acie's individual numbers very well might be the worst of any PG in the league that gets significant minutes.

At this point its obvious that you are actively trying to ignore information that doesn't fit with what you want to believe. I have tried to show you all these numbers before and you still cling to your ridiculous beliefs. Have fun playing ostrich and sticking your head in the sand about facts that you don't want to know.

This is probably the last try for me on this- take the core hawks lineup of Joe, Marvin or Childress, Smith and Horford. Here are the plus minus numbers just with those lineups.

AJ +51
Acie -20

[tontoz]

Tontoz- its absolutely breathtaking how ridiculous you are about this topic. Do you really think that Law has played more with Wright than AJ has!?

Why don't you find the quote where i said that, Mr Strawman?

You WANT to believe that his teammates are making Acie look bad but there just isn't any evidence of that.

As usual you oversimplify things, which is what people do who don't actually watch games and base all of their opinions on stats.

Acie has shot poorly and obviously has nobody to blame for that. I have never made any excuses for that other than rookie jitters.

He also played hurt for many games, which hurt his production regardless of who he was playing with.

But his lack of assists can clearly be traced to who he has played with.

This month he has 18 assists in 144 minutes. His time has been spent playing frequently with bench players. He had 17 assists (and 2 turnovers) in the last 63 minutes before he got hurt, when he was starting.

But i guess this is "no evidence" in your bizzaro world. I guess the only stats that matter are the ones that support your arguments. All others (not to mention play by play logs) are dismissed.

[JoshB914]

Tontoz you are looking at one game while he is looking at stats for the entire season. I don't see how you can even begin to argue that IV is always on the floor with second teamers when it is clear that isn't isnt the case.

[tontoz]

I don't see how you can even begin to argue that IV is always on the floor with second teamers

Again you guys have to put words in my mouth because you can't make a coherent argument. Why don't you show me where i said that.

[killbuckner]

Since he has so frequently played with backup this year that is why his +/- isn't a valid comparison.

(...But he is still not producing like AJ has been...)

AJ doesn't play with a D league front line either.

The argument you were pathetically trying to make was that Acie's +/- was irrelevant because he plays with backups. Of course once again since the reality doesn't match up with what you want to believe then you are choosing to ignore it.

[JoshB914]

Tontoz you have said time and time again that IV's numbers are depleted because he always is playing with the second team. Obviously he spends plenty of time on the floor with our top guys.

[JoshB914]

And I think KB showed where you did indeed say that.

[tontoz]

Tontoz you have said time and time again that IV's numbers are depleted because he always is playing with the second team. Obviously he spends plenty of time on the floor with our top guys.

Now you are showing that you just can't read. I am frankly surprised because i thought you had more sense than that.

Show me one quote where i used the word always.

[tontoz]

-= original quote snipped =-



The argument you were pathetically trying to make was that Acie's +/- was irrelevant because he plays with backups. Of course once again since the reality doesn't match up with what you want to believe then you are choosing to ignore it.

I guess i have to get more specific.

In order to get an assist there has to be a made basket. Therefore it is easier to pick up assists when playing with better scorers, in this case the starters. There is a huge gap in scoring ability between our starters and our bench players. This shouldn't be hard to grasp.

Acie has started 5 games, AJ 28. Acie has rarely played late in games that are close. So who is spending more time playing with the starters? obviously AJ. This shouldn't be hard to grasp either.

Anyone who watches the games knows that Woody likes to rest his starters during mid to late first half. This is where the majority of Acie's minutes have come from since he came back from his injury.

Here lately Solomon and Wright have been getting minutes during this first half stretch (including last game, together, which is where i made the D-League reference. I couldn't recall seeing them ever playing together before). A month ago it was Shelden and Zaza. But it is the same story.

I NEVER said Acie played exclusively with bench players. you guys made that up because you are either unable to read or feel you can't respond to what i am actually saying. It is easier for you to make something up, pretend that i said it, and then argue against that.

What i did say is that Acie has played a FAR higher percentage of his minutes with guys who can't score (bench players) than AJ has. This isn't even debatable. This affects his assists as well as his +/-.

There are obviously other factors effecting his +/-. His inability to make a jumper certainly comes into play. The fact that he played hurt has an effect also.

Of course i am sure i am wasting my time with this post. You guys won't respond to what i actually say. you will just make something up, pretend that i said it, and then argue against that.

[JoshB914]

Obviously it changes his +/-. If that is your only argument for him needing more minutes than I'm not sure what else I can say.

[tontoz]

Obviously it changes his +/-. If that is your only argument for him needing more minutes than I'm not sure what else I can say.

I don't even know what this means, but it is time to put this argument to bed, using kb's favorite site.

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708ATL2.HTM

AJ has played with JJ, Marvin, Smith and Horford for a total of 377 minutes.

Law has played with them only 83 minutes. Obviously the majority of those minutes were in november when Acie was starting. Smith was shooting 37% and Horford had more turnovers than field goals.

Guess who has a better winning percentage with the starters. That's right, it's Acie. In fact the lineup with Acie playing with the starters has a higher win percentage (63.6%) than any other 5 man unit.

Of course i am sure killbuckner regards this as "no evidence" since any stats that don't agree with his opinions are dismissed.

[JoshB914]

Tontoz- once again basic stats fail you. Look at law's PT and you will see the players that he has been paired up with the most. Here is the list in order:

Joe Johnson
Josh Smith
Marvin Williams
Josh Childress
Al Horford

Yeah- obviously he never gets to play with the best hawks players. Its simply ridiculous to think that he has been playing only with backups and to blame his lousy +/- on that.

And you were the one asking for what the score was when Lue came into the game. I am assuming that you were asking because you thought that the score was worse when he left. Maybe you don't realize it but thats all +/- measures. Actually the reason I said something was that Law's +/- for this game was better than Lue's for this game.

So maybe he hasn't been playing with the entire starting lineup but he's not exactly playing with Salim, Lo, Solo and Rio every time he goes on the floor. You are manipulating stats like usual.

[tontoz]

You are manipulating stats like usual.

LOL you just can't handle the truth.

You say i am manupulating stats but you give no examples. Just like you make up things claiming i said them.

The fact is that the most successful 5 man unit the Hawks have had this year includes Acie, not AJ or Lue.

Neither you or kb can say anything to refute that.

[JoshB914]

Win % for a five man unit? Are you joking? Just admit you were wrong about IV's numbers being too low because he only plays with scrubs.

We'll see what IV has tommorow against Portland with no AJ taking his minutes. He definetely didn't do the job against Toronto with no AJ.

[JoshB914]

And of course IV has played a higher % with backups as he is second string... if that is the only point that you're making I don't think anyone would disagree as it is basic knowledge that backups dont play with starters as much.

[tontoz]

Win % for a five man unit? Are you joking? Just admit you were wrong about IV's numbers being too low because he only plays with scrubs.

Yet again you have to resort to making stuff up because your argument got punk'd.

I never said Acie ONLY played with scrubs. After all he started 5 games. How could he only play with scrubs if he started 5 games?

Even in the play by plays that i posted there were starters playing with him at times.

Looks like KB is statman and you are Mr Strawman. It is time for you and kb to just....

[RockTHECasbah]

+/- is a greater stat than winning percentage, IMO

Law is a +8 with J.Johnson-M.Williams-Smith-Horford
He is a -28 with J.Johnson-Childress-Smith-Horford


ThugJohnson is +29 with J.Johnson-M.Williams-Smith-Horford
He is a +18 with J.Johnson-Childress-Smith-Horford

If he is actually a good player, the +/- will increase with more playing time.

[raleigh]

While Acie isn't likely playing as much *with* the starters, he's also not playing as much *against* starters.

Bottomline, Acie Law hasn't earned major minutes this season, while Anthony Johnson has. I have no problem with Acie getting the backup minutes.

[raleigh]

I just find it hilarious that you think the consistency of these numbers is a fluke. You WANT to believe that his teammates are making Acie look bad but there just isn't any evidence of that. Combine these numbers with the fact that Acie's individual numbers very well might be the worst of any PG in the league that gets significant minutes.

At this point its obvious that you are actively trying to ignore information that doesn't fit with what you want to believe. I have tried to show you all these numbers before and you still cling to your ridiculous beliefs. Have fun playing ostrich and sticking your head in the sand about facts that you don't want to know.

I've found this to be a problem with posters over on the 'Squawk as well.

Basically, if the player's box score stats are awful, you're not likely to find justification for them by digging deeper into less wieldy stats like +/- or PER.