John Collins Edited: (Hawks Seek Lottery Pick For Collins)

[D21]

Nothing wrong with this thought process.

I simply don't understand folks being scared to pay our guys. The Hawks developed Jollins into what he is. Why let some other team reap the rewards? If that's not a guy you pay, who is?

Guess what? Winning is expensive. Get used to it or get comfortable rooting for losing. That's kinda the choice.

I agree with that, but then why Schlenk was afraid of giving him 100M/4yrs instead of 90M ?
There's a 50-50 chance that it would have been done.

The only reason I see is that Schlenk knew John got benefits from playing in a empty team last season and him and Trae were doing easily superstars stats because of that more than than providing the truth they are.

And since the market value is a totally biased thing because depending on how many teams have cap room, the need to a player at the same spot, the numbers a good free agents available... it's not the right way to evaluate the real value of a player.
In this way, yes, I would say that Bogi got underpay a bit and he proved it. Like John proved this season that he deserves no more than Capela or Bogi real value, that I would set above their actual contract, but not at 28M/yr, maybe for Capela.

Who build the best contender with real value of player in the last two decades ? SAS, and only Duncan was at Max. Yes they had Popovich, but Parker and Ginobili or the other players signing there wanted 50% to win and 50% to be paid, and they knew that wanting 100% to be paid would have cost them some titles.

ATL is on the verge to have the perfect team to become contender for years, and even if I'm not afraid to pay John 100M/4yrs, I'm afraid that a Max contract would destroy the possibility to build that contender.

Now, I already said that, but the problem came from last season, and only from that. Letting shine some players in an empty team is bad, and leading often to gamble on players. That's what a lot of teams have done, and Schlenk refuse it by offering 90M only, but he was also the one that created it.
It's a great thing to have trade for Capela last season, we can't say the opposite, we have proof now, but if he had been to play last season, John would never have had these numbers last season, and would have been more on the market with real value than a virtual value.
It's not Capela's fault, but Schlenk by not having a bigger roster with some better veterans last season, and it's because of this that the negotiation failed last December, more than anything else.

Yes, you need to spend money to win, but it means more spending at least up to the luxury tax (or maybe paying a bit of tax as I'm not sure there are champion teams not paying tax these last years), it doesn't meaning overpaying some players.
Spending a lot for a good team is not the same thing than spending a lot on some players and because of the cap rules not being able to have a good roster.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like letting free agent walking for nothing, CLE was the best example at overpaying guys to keep them but at least having them under contract and being able to trade them for even higher contracts and that's the way they got a good team around LeBron and a title.

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That's exactly the kind if stats that makes a biased value, and that John agent will use. Good to see him leading this stats, but it would give more sense if at the same time, the defensive equivalent was shown, because basketball is a collective sport, with offense and defense. It also doesn't show if this is happening partly because of playing with Capela.
The worst thing that hurts the negotiation was John being one of the few last year to average 20/10 with a high FG%, and let lead to thinking that he was like the few other ones in this category, which you can''t without looking at other numbers and the roster they play with. At least, we got the proof that Schlenk knew that

[kg01]

Unlikely. And even if it does happen it'll be after Jollins gets his next contract, not before.

On that we agree. One benefit of a new Collins contract, if it isn’t obscenely high, it makes getting value back in a trade much more manageable.

Question for you: if Travis was willing to pay any number to keep Collins, why didn’t he budge during their extension negotiations last fall?

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Going through the uncertainty of this season and having the possibility of an ugly, backloaded RFA contract to match is much less appealing than just signing him outright last offseason.

I can’t imagine we’d let Trae get anywhere near RFA.

You answered your own question. He should try to get the number lower if he can, shouldnt he?

[Jamaaliver]

You answered your own question. He should try to get the number lower if he can, shouldn't he?

Not if he's truly a max level player. Those guys have their teams bending over backwards to max them out.

3rd tier players like John are the ones hoping, desperately for a payday beyond their worth.

Collins is a Jerami Grant, Pascal Siakam, Khris Middleton caliber player. And giving too much money to guys like that does not get you closer to a title.

[Ball4life32]

Collins is averaging 17.7 ppg because he’s only playing 29.5 mpg with a usage rate of 22.2% (which isn't even top 100 in nba) The fact he’s almost averaging 18 ppg is pretty ridiculous in itself.

He’s averaged 20-9 on 64 TS% through his age 21-23 seasons….this is better than multiple HOF’s/perennial all stars (not saying he will be in that category at the end of his career but what he’s done this early is underrated) Remember Collins isn’t looking to get paid based on this year numbers.

We’re 26-11 under Nate with a young team that’s had a bunch of injuries. This isn’t comparable to any hawks teams in the past. No way I’m looking to trade him considering his value (he won’t headline for a superstar) T&T board thinks he can be had for a pu pu platter….

[kg01]

You answered your own question. He should try to get the number lower if he can, shouldn't he?

Not if he's truly a max level player. Those guys have their teams bending over backwards to max them out.

3rd tier players like John are the ones hoping, desperately for a payday beyond their worth.

Collins is a Jerami Grant, Pascal Siakam, Khris Middleton caliber player. And giving too much money to guys like that does not get you closer to a title.

I do notice you're choosing not to address the question of, if you don't wanna pay him what do you want to do?

Trade for an unnamed, disgruntled superstar isn't an answer.

[jayu70]

So what if TS didn't budge on his initial offer? Collins passed and decided to bet on himself. I would surmise the Hawks wanted to check out the Collins/Capela pairing. And it's not like it doesn't happen.
Didn't Ingram turn down the Pels offer and bet on himself. Didn't the Pels end up giving him a 5 year max deal?
...and this is not me saying that Collins should get a 5 year max...I've said previously, I would like to think that there is some negotiation available in between the 4/$90 and a 4 year max.

[Jamaaliver]

I do notice you're choosing not to address the question of, if you don't wanna pay him what do you want to do?

Ummm...ideally, I would have increased the offer to John Collins before the season. Maybe front load the contract so it descends in value.

At this point, I still want to keep John Collins. He's a good player, a great locker presence and a wonderful ambassador for this team and this city. I just don't want to overpay him.

I'd increase the offer this summer up to 4 years, $100 million with incentives for games played, playoff appearances, All Star selections and...not getting popped for banned substances anymore.

If he signs an absurd offer sheet with another team in RFA, I'd probably match it. He's too valuable to allow to walk away. But it likely means he'll have to be moved in the future...or Capela will.

If Collins really wants to leave, I'd insist on a sign & trade like the Joe Johnson trade -- middling player and a future 1st round pick.

Word is Miami and Dallas will both come hard for JC this summer. Under no circumstances can we lose JC for nothing...especially to these teams.

[D21]

Collins is averaging 17.7 ppg because he’s only playing 29.5 mpg with a usage rate of 22.2% (which isn't even top 100 in nba) The fact he’s almost averaging 18 ppg is pretty ridiculous in itself.

He’s averaged 20-9 on 64 TS% through his age 21-23 seasons….this is better than multiple HOF’s/perennial all stars...

But this what he would have in any already contender team. Jemeri Grant is shining more with DET but had he stayed with DEN, he would not have his DET stats.
Put Middleton with a team that is not a contender and he's an All-Star for sure and looks like a franchise player. If MIL had not Giannis on their team, they would have questioned themselves more if it was a good decision to give him so much and loose Brogdon.

...I'd increase the offer this summer up to 4 years, $100 million with incentives for games played, playoff appearances, All Star selections and...not getting popped for banned substances anymore...

I would prefer incentive based on playoffs rounds being more important than All-Star selection, this individual award are just one way to make a player playing more for himself at one point.
They are not playing tennis, it's basketball

[Ball4life32]

Collins is averaging 17.7 ppg because he’s only playing 29.5 mpg with a usage rate of 22.2% (which isn't even top 100 in nba) The fact he’s almost averaging 18 ppg is pretty ridiculous in itself.

He’s averaged 20-9 on 64 TS% through his age 21-23 seasons….this is better than multiple HOF’s/perennial all stars...

But this what he would have in any already contender team. Jemeri Grant is shining more with DET but had he stayed with DEN, he would not have his DET stats.
Put Middleton with a team that is not a contender and he's an All-Star for sure and looks like a franchise player. If MIL had not Giannis on their team, they would have questioned themselves more if it was a good decision to give him so much and loose Brogdon.

I’m comparing players at the same stage. Collins averaged 20-10 at 21 years old. Grant is 27 years old and he’s doing it on a usage rate significantly higher than Collins has ever had. His usage is closer to Trae than Collins. And his efficiency is nowhere close to Collins.

Middleton at the same stage of Collins had the bucks 33-49(after going .500 the previous year). And him and Giannis only missed 3 games combined that year…..They didn’t even sniff the playoffs let alone being an actual contender …& I have Collins a good bit better than Middleton comparing their first 4 years. Obviously Middleton made a nice leap.

[D21]

Collins is averaging 17.7 ppg because he’s only playing 29.5 mpg with a usage rate of 22.2% (which isn't even top 100 in nba) The fact he’s almost averaging 18 ppg is pretty ridiculous in itself.

He’s averaged 20-9 on 64 TS% through his age 21-23 seasons….this is better than multiple HOF’s/perennial all stars...

But this what he would have in any already contender team. Jemeri Grant is shining more with DET but had he stayed with DEN, he would not have his DET stats.
Put Middleton with a team that is not a contender and he's an All-Star for sure and looks like a franchise player. If MIL had not Giannis on their team, they would have questioned themselves more if it was a good decision to give him so much and loose Brogdon.

I’m comparing players at the same stage. Collins averaged 20-10 at 21 years old. Grant is 27 years old and he’s doing it on a usage rate significantly higher than Collins has ever had. His usage is closer to Trae than Collins. And his efficiency is nowhere close to Collins.

Middleton at the same stage of Collins had the bucks 33-49(after going .500 the previous year). And him and Giannis only missed 3 games combined that year…..They didn’t even sniff the playoffs let alone being an actual contender …& I have Collins a good bit better than Middleton comparing their first 4 years. Obviously Middleton made a nice leap.

I'm not comparing John and Grant to find the best of both, I'm comparing the situation. If John was playing for DET this season instead of Grant, he would have got higher individual stats than what he got with ATL (and higher than Grant for sure), but he may not have finish 5th and playing the playoffs.

[Jamaaliver]

Collins’ contract: His scoring and rebounding averages are lower than a year ago, but that’s primarily due to a deeper and more talented roster, not a drop-off in play. Collins is a really good player who has the potential to be a great player and a part of the Hawks’ future core. The Hawks want him, otherwise, they wouldn’t have offered him a lucrative extension. He rejected it, but it’s a credit to him that he hasn’t publicly squawked about the negotiations, and he hasn’t let it impact his play.

But Collins wants close to a max money contract, if not actual max money. If Collins and the team have a strong series against the Knicks, it’s a major bargaining chip for the player. The last thing Ressler and Schlenk will want to do is make a dramatic change to the roster after that success. The flip side: It’s going to take something impressive to get management to that point because a team can only give out so many max contracts, and one of them will belong to Trae Young.

The Athletic

[Jamaaliver]

John’s lackluster production tonight isn’t necessarily his fault and is not indicative of his abilities...but this dude ain’t a max player.

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[D21]

It's a bit special as they were not dominated with John on the floor, so his defensive impact was still there, but I admit that as soon as he got 2 fouls in less than 2 minutes in the game, I thought this game will be L.
I was surprised they managed to take a 15pts lead then, but I was fearing that John would not play like in the first game.
I thought one of the main keys to this series is to not get into foul trouble, and 2 fouls in 2 minutes is a problem. I need to re-watch these two fouls to see if it's something that refs would have not called in the first game and called it in this one.

[shakes0]

John’s lackluster production tonight isn’t necessarily his fault and is not indicative of his abilities...but this dude ain’t a max player.

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I'd offer him less money than last summer based on his horrific showing in the playoffs so far. We don't need this guy and we definitely don't need him at $125 million. Let him walk.

[tbhawksfan1]

JC is proving what I said last offseason. I hope that he ends up costing himself money by Hawks getting him at less than 4@90M

His game last night was completely inexcusable. First game sucked too. What was he thinking...thinking that he's a max guy....

[jayu70]

Meanwhile our vet $20 million player is sucking it up.

[CP War Hawks]

It'll be wise to find a 3 and D big if at all possible, one that can fill both 4 and 5 positions. It's no way they let Collins walk. They will need to match whatever offer comes his way and trade him for value at some point in the future.

It's almost the same scenario as Bogi if you were to wearing Sac's shoes.

[D21]

There's one thing I didn't thought about some months ago : yes, he may deserve 100M instead of 90M and if that, he had a good idea by choosing to try to prove that, but maybe he didn't think about the fact that reaching the playoffs would really show his level, more than the regular season.
Now, I hope it was just a bad game, and I prefer it happening in a game where other players were not that good, if it gives lesson to learn and can help win the two coming games, and one more after that.

[Jamaaliver]

John's issue right now is that, offensively, there is quite a bit of overlap in how he and Capela are used. They are both top end screeners and elite rim-runners.

Capela is being used as the primary pick and roll partner when he's in, leaving John Collins to play purely as a stretch-4 most plays. The two have managed to co-exist and have the team offense benefit from their pairing, but the individual stats for J Collins have dried up.

Clint has made Collins less important in the offense -- just as Collins is heading into a contract year.

And if I'm not mistaken, Capela is up for a contract extension next summer.



In the short term -- we should stagger their minutes more. So they both get opportunities to as the primary pick and roll big.

[tbhawksfan1]

At what point does a team offer more than Travis should pay? JC and this season has shown that he isn't what he thinks he is...what he wants to be paid. If another team breaks the bank, I think it would be foolish to match. Is he even worth the 4@90M offered?

As for Gallo, yeah he's sucking too... just adds to the reason to not get into bad contracts.

I also beg to differ on the statement that his last game maybe wasn't his fault. Of course it was. That was a completely inexcusable game on every level. Hawks had a good chance to go up 2-0 in the PLAYOFFS.