Are Hawks Better with Dennis at PG?

[Jamaaliver]

The sample size is growing...

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[Jamaaliver]

A few posters expressed reluctance when this thread was initially posted. So now, with 90% of the season behind them, DS still possesses a superior OFF Rating, DEF rating (and subsequently NET rating) over incumbent starter Jeff Teague.

Through games played March 31, DS has an Off rating of 104.7 to JT0's 102.3. Defensively is really where things stand out: DS has a DEF Rating of 95.4 to Teague's 101.4.

The Net Rating for the players stands at +9.3 to +0.9 with Dennis (obviously) possessing the better advanced numbers. Here

Recently, the roundtable over at NBA.com discussed who the best backup PG in the league is. DS received more accolades than other nominee:

NBA.com: If I were going by sheer numbers, I’d tip toward Atlanta’s Dennis Schröder. On a per-36-minute basis, the Hawks’ feisty backup to Jeff Teague is averaging nearly 20 points and eight assists.

NBA.com: I love the spunk that Jeremy Lin is giving the Hornets, but my pick is Dennis Schröder of the Hawks, who has raised every facet of his game (11.5 points and 5 assists in 20 minutes per). Tough and fearless, Schroder has often played better this season than Jeff Teague, who slumped badly early on. I just wish the German would go all-out with his hair as he does on the court. Go full blond. Be daring.

NBA.com: ...but the best game changer at the position off the bench this season has been Atlanta’s Dennis Schröder. He can play at any speed and shreds defenses when he’s attacking the basket and finishing over much bigger players. Something has to give eventually with he and Jeff Teague both wanting the keys to the car in Atlanta. But for now, Schroder will have to settle for being the best back-up point guard in the NBA.

NBA.com’s All Ball blog: ...But to me the best back-up in the NBA is Atlanta’s Dennis Schröder. He ain’t perfect — Schröder can be inconsistent, his jumper needs improving, and he sometimes struggles with understanding when to attack and when to pull back. But when he’s on, Schröder keeps an All-Star in Jeff Teague on the bench during crunch time. And there aren’t a lot of back-ups who can say that.

Here

[King Ken]

No

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[Rip2137]

When are you starting the "are the hawks better with Mike Scott at PF" thread?

[Jamaaliver]

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That young man's car...is ridiculous.

When are you starting the "are the hawks better with Mike Scott at PF" thread?

A fair point. Here's the thing, I've been driving the train regarding Dennis' potential as a starter for over a year. Long before the advanced stats reflected his impact. Just watching his game as an objective viewer, he has so much potential it's crazy. Since then, more and more pundits, fans and scouts have come to view DS as starting material. And now the numbers reflect that as well.

Hell, by this point last season, Dennis was 8-1 as the starting PG for this squad.

Mike Scott...is lucky to still have a job. He is definitely a rotation caliber player. But I'm not sure he's talented enough to be a starter.

[PandaKidd]

The last 10-15 games Teague has been on fire. But I think id still lean toward DS for a couple of reasons:

I think he has a higher ceiling than Teague
I think hes a MUCH better defender than Teague
I think hes a MUCH better PnR player than Teague

If we dont hand the keys over to DS this offseason and move Teague (lets say teague has a GOOD playoffs and we make it to the ECF an lose) Ill be a little pissed off.

Teague is NOT the future. DS is, he always has been. We can easily get a VET PG to backup DS. MOVE TEAGUE WHILE HIS VALUE IS HIGH.

[PandaKidd]

The mike Scott thing is funny because that is a situation where you can use ONLY analytics and try to say hes better than Millsap. Not even close to the same thing as comparing Teague to DS.

I like having the 2 PGs be lethal at different points of the game, but improving the starting 5 > having 2 good PGs.

[observer1995]

improving the starting 5 > having 2 good PGs.

BINGO!

This isn't really even about Teague vs Schroder. It's about how do you try to improve the starting lineup to take the next step to being a legitimate contender, and while you can get something for Schroder in THEORY you could get something better for Teague (I'm not sure that this is legitimate as word on the street is Atlanta tried to get Middleton for him but Milwaukee laughed in their faces). It's about do you really think that this starting lineup as it is can legitimately compete for it all (and if you think that, I have ocean front property to sell to you in Tennessee).

It's about do you want to stay being a decent team, essentially the Memphis of the East, or roll the dice and try to take another step?

[King Ken]

The last 10-15 games Teague has been on fire. But I think id still lean toward DS for a couple of reasons:

I think he has a higher ceiling than Teague
I think hes a MUCH better defender than Teague
I think hes a MUCH better PnR player than Teague

If we dont hand the keys over to DS this offseason and move Teague (lets say teague has a GOOD playoffs and we make it to the ECF an lose) Ill be a little pissed off.

Teague is NOT the future. DS is, he always has been. We can easily get a VET PG to backup DS. MOVE TEAGUE WHILE HIS VALUE IS HIGH.

I believe you keep him and only move him for high value.

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[PandaKidd]

The last 10-15 games Teague has been on fire. But I think id still lean toward DS for a couple of reasons:

I think he has a higher ceiling than Teague
I think hes a MUCH better defender than Teague
I think hes a MUCH better PnR player than Teague

If we dont hand the keys over to DS this offseason and move Teague (lets say teague has a GOOD playoffs and we make it to the ECF an lose) Ill be a little pissed off.

Teague is NOT the future. DS is, he always has been. We can easily get a VET PG to backup DS. MOVE TEAGUE WHILE HIS VALUE IS HIGH.

I believe you keep him and only move him for high value.

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then you should have done it last year or this year before he becomes a 1 year rental (half a season rental). His value diminishes by the day.

[King Ken]

The last 10-15 games Teague has been on fire. But I think id still lean toward DS for a couple of reasons:

I think he has a higher ceiling than Teague
I think hes a MUCH better defender than Teague
I think hes a MUCH better PnR player than Teague

If we dont hand the keys over to DS this offseason and move Teague (lets say teague has a GOOD playoffs and we make it to the ECF an lose) Ill be a little pissed off.

Teague is NOT the future. DS is, he always has been. We can easily get a VET PG to backup DS. MOVE TEAGUE WHILE HIS VALUE IS HIGH.

I believe you keep him and only move him for high value.

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then you should have done it last year or this year before he becomes a 1 year rental (half a season rental). His value diminishes by the day.

No. No it shouldn't.

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[jayu70]

I don't think that anyone disagrees that upgrading the starting lineup is paramount and more important than having 2 good point guards. But if you are making a trade that doesn't improve the starting lineup for now or the future then you don't make the trade.

[jayu70]

The last 10-15 games Teague has been on fire. But I think id still lean toward DS for a couple of reasons:

I think he has a higher ceiling than Teague
I think hes a MUCH better defender than Teague
I think hes a MUCH better PnR player than Teague

If we dont hand the keys over to DS this offseason and move Teague (lets say teague has a GOOD playoffs and we make it to the ECF an lose) Ill be a little pissed off.

Teague is NOT the future. DS is, he always has been. We can easily get a VET PG to backup DS. MOVE TEAGUE WHILE HIS VALUE IS HIGH.

You say his value is high (and I think it is) but What if they don't get what they are asking for? Would you be OK dealing him to NY for Aaron Afflao or Jose Calderon (just throwing stuff out) or something like that just to hand the starting job to Dennis?

What would you consider the lowest acceptable offer for Teague?

[Jamaaliver]

What would you consider the lowest acceptable offer for Teague?

I know this wasn't directed at me specifically...but I view getting nothing for Teague (letting him walk in Free Agency) worse than getting less than market value in trade.

Neither is ideal. But big picture: getting a modest draft pick, clearing cap space AND allowing DS more PT isn't an awful strategy to employ.

Just look at the Josh Smith expiration year ordeal.

[jayu70]

What would you consider the lowest acceptable offer for Teague?

I know this wasn't directed at me specifically...but I view getting nothing for Teague (letting him walk in Free Agency) worse than getting less than market value in trade.

Neither is ideal. But big picture: getting a modest draft pick, clearing cap space AND allowing DS more PT isn't an awful strategy to employ.

Just look at the Josh Smith expiration year ordeal.

I think I have pointed out before that letting Josh walk for nothing was a great move...if we had made that trade we would have had Mahamoute, Udoh and Udrih under contract and would not have had the required capspace to sign Millsap and Carroll. Sometimes, just sometimes the best trade is no trade when all you end up doing is tying up money in players you don't want just to say "well look I got something."

[Rip2137]

An extra 8 million in cap space beats 8 million worth of mediocre players any day.

Being completely honest, if we flame out in the playoffs I say trade the guy that you get the best offer for. I don't think I can stress how bad Dennis as a starter looks like it would be.

[Jamaaliver]

I think I have pointed out before that letting Josh walk for nothing was a great move...if we had made that trade we would have had Mahamoute, Udoh and Udrih under contract and would not have had the required capspace to sign Millsap and Carroll. Sometimes, just sometimes the best trade is no trade when all you end up doing is tying up money in players you don't want just to say "well look I got something."

A fair point. But the entire incentive for us making that trade was Milwaukee's [protected] 1st round draft pick. I think I read a tweet years ago that it was either top ten or lottery protected.

But MIL used their pick that year to select Giannis Antetokounmpo.

That's ultimately what the deal was for. The draft pick that could have changed the fortunes of this franchise for the next decade. Everything else was simply contracts thrown in to allow the trade under salary cap rules.

If you can trade an expiring Josh Smith and get a shot at a young cornerstone as a result...how do you choose otherwise?

I've mentioned it before, but had we simply rebuilt in Year One under Ferry (2013), we could be flush with young, cheap talent right now:

Giannis, Rudy Gobert, Dennis. That's well worth a single, sub-par season in lieu of a mediocre, forgettable season.

[PandaKidd]

so 8 million off the books means you are
A) Not giving Dennis time to grow as a starter
B) Not grooming someone else behind dennis

Teauge is not going to be a hawk after next year I think we can all agree right? No way they pay him. So, if you KNOW you wont have him, WHY wouldnt you move on from him?

Im not saying trade him for a 2nd round pick in 2022. But you could probably get some assets back, but your mostly right, itll be a bunch of mediocre or salary dumps. No one is giving up value to sign a 1 year rental.

So, again, this discussion is likely irrelevant.

[PandaKidd]

Dennis is the consensus best back up PG in the league, so, why would you thin khe wouldnt improve EVEN MORE as a starter? Its kind of ludicrous to say that he wont improve ? Is it a possibility ? Sure. But hes gotten better in almost every other facet of the game since coming into the league.

If you trade DS then you are setting yourself up to be without ANY PG in 2017. That would be all time dumb.

[Jamaaliver]

Teauge is not going to be a hawk after next year I think we can all agree right?

No one is giving up value to sign a 1 year rental. So, again, this discussion is likely irrelevant.

Yeah, one or both of our PGs is likely gone in Summer 2017.

But didn't one year rentals on Dragic and Rondo get solid returns? Rondo for only a few months got draft picks and Jae Crowder...and Rondo had been terrible for years due to injury. An expiring Reggie Jackson plus extras netted a nice return for OKC. An injured, expiring Brandon Jennings netted a solid return for DETROIT.

An expiring Batum netted Portland a solid package. An expiring Kevin Love netted MINNY the #1 pick. An expiring Kevin Martin plus prospects acquired James Harden.

There's always some desperate team out there. We just have to be reasonable with expectations.

Also...combining assets is a way to overcome Teague's expiring status: Teague, Edy and a 1st rounder isn't an awful package to start negotiations with.