Hawks-76ers discussing deal

[PandaKidd]

Can't remember, but if we did trade Teague to the Sixers, would they be able to get his bird rights? I think that incentive for Teague would go a long way in wanting to re-sign in Philly.

Yes, they would acquire his bird rights as long as its done before a certain date ( i think its October?) before the season starts maybe?

When ORL traded Dwight Howard , the Lakers acquire his bird rights, and if you remember he walked away from that 5th year with the Lakers to sign with Houston

When a player is traded, his new team inherits his Bird rights. For example, if a player signs a three-year contract, plays two and a half seasons with that team, and is traded at the trade deadline in the third season, then his new team owns full Bird rights following the third season.

That must be true then, because Miami traded for Dragic mid season and gave him a 5 year deal.

[MaceCase]

Firstly I'd like to say that RFA and UFA are the same exact issue. You are at the same disadvantage if you are a team refusing to pay either.

This seems like somewhat of a reversal from a couple of years back...

I always admire your reading comprehension.

Let me point out your folly in a simplistic manner:

-The Cavs wanted to offer Kyrie far more than any other team could even possibly pay him.

-Theres a good chance the Sixers aren't willing to offer Noel far more than any other team when they have Okafor and Embiid and Saric and likely Simmons.

[Geaux_Hawks]

Can't remember, but if we did trade Teague to the Sixers, would they be able to get his bird rights? I think that incentive for Teague would go a long way in wanting to re-sign in Philly.

Yes, they would acquire his bird rights as long as its done before a certain date ( i think its October?) before the season starts maybe?

When ORL traded Dwight Howard , the Lakers acquire his bird rights, and if you remember he walked away from that 5th year with the Lakers to sign with Houston

When a player is traded, his new team inherits his Bird rights. For example, if a player signs a three-year contract, plays two and a half seasons with that team, and is traded at the trade deadline in the third season, then his new team owns full Bird rights following the third season.

That must be true then, because Miami traded for Dragic mid season and gave him a 5 year deal.

To be fair, LA was in an abysmal state. They had no future. Nash was done. Kobe was getting there. Pau didn't fit next to him. They traded their draft picks and was fortunate to keep it year. Plus, Dwight could have went anywhere off his name alone. Houston at least had a young star to pair with him.

For Teague, Almost every team that's competing has a PG already, whether it be a young one or one of equal or better caliber of Teague. Philly offers a ton of upside that will more than likely be ready in about 2 years, and they can give him a great offer in salary. I doubt he will demand a max salary, but even if he did, Philly could give it to him, and still provide a team able to compete.

[PandaKidd]

MASE

-Theres a good chance the Sixers aren't willing to offer Noel far more than any other team when they have Okafor and Embiid and Saric and likely Simmons.

Oh I get what you are saying now, youre saying that an UFA in Teague TO THE 76ers is the same to them as a RFA in Noel , both could leave for nothing because Philly wont want to pay anything for NOEL if they have that many big men on the roster.

They are going to roll the dice, they might as well do it with a position of need.

In terms of what each team gets, Id rather have the Hawks position with Noel in RFA than Teague in UFA, and im sure the 76ers are of similar thinking

[MaceCase]

MASE

-Theres a good chance the Sixers aren't willing to offer Noel far more than any other team when they have Okafor and Embiid and Saric and likely Simmons.

Oh I get what you are saying now, youre saying that an UFA in Teague TO THE 76ers is the same to them as a RFA in Noel , both could leave for nothing because Philly wont want to pay anything for NOEL if they have that many big men on the roster.

They are going to roll the dice, they might as well do it with a position of need.

In terms of what each team gets, Id rather have the Hawks position with Noel in RFA than Teague in UFA, and im sure the 76ers are of similar thinking

Great!

I deleted my last response because I see you got my exact point so there's no need to explain it. This is awesome, really it is.

[patman52]

How is he NOT a rental?

His contract expires in less than 12 months. He could easily leave Philadelphia for 0 compensation next summer.

Exactly. Anyone trading for him is betting they can convince him to stay. If we got Noel it would be big becuase Noel is RFA next season. Teague is UFA next season.

Noel seems like a high value for an expiring rental in teague

But Noel is a rental as well as a RFA but I wonder if you just want your C's to get him for the 3th pick? But there isn't too many other options when it comes down to trading Teague or Dennis but this is a good start.

You think the Celtics would offer the 3rd pick for a guy who will be a RFA next year with 20 teams having 40 mill in cap space. Noel has some people in the league that think he can be a top 10-15 center. He will get close to a max deal next July, Why do you think no other teams are in pursuit of an under 25YO 7' defensive stopper. A lot of Celtic fans want him, I mean he grew up here. If Ainge still needs a player of his type next year I am sure he will pursue him as will 5 other teams of that I am sure. But you don't trade the #3 pick in the draft for a guy you control for only one year.

I think the hawks being mentioned is only to put pressure on Horford to stay, As you guys well know he rather play the 4 and Noel will allow him to do so he could spend 15min at PF and 15 in the pivot.

[patman52]

Firstly I'd like to say that RFA and UFA are the same exact issue. You are at the same disadvantage if you are a team refusing to pay either. That "team control" only extends as far as you are willing to pay him so just as easily as you'd say you don't want to pay a player in their prime like Teague twice their salary you'd also not want to pay your 5th big like Noel triple and quadruple his salary.

So that leads to my second point, the NBA does not exist in a vacuum. There is no static value system, if you're a team with 5 big men drafted in the lottery you're at a disadvantage having one hit free agency. This is the scenario that is worse than losing a player for nothing, the scenario where that player actually costs you.

UFA with rights means you can offer 1 more year than anyone else usually, right? So the team has some leverage there. But what if you dont want to pay him?

RFA means you at least have the right of first refusal. and usually teams have to OVERPAY to get that RFA anyway........right?

if on July 1 Teague is offered a 4 yaer 60 million dollar deal we dont have to "match" , he can sign it without ever talking to us, correct?

RFA we have the right to match whatever offer is put out there.

How is that the same situation? Is anyone going to Offer Noel a big contract to pry him away? I mean it rarely happens like that, last one i can think of is maybe hayward/Parsons few years ago?

Noel isnt going to be on the bench 4-5 deep. Hes going to be in the rotation within a year. They dont do this deal IMO unless they have faith he can be a contributor in the next 12 months.

What you don't account for is this, in previous years 20 teams did not have 40 mill of cap space. Most teams were close to the cap and very few could offer RFAs huge deals. That situation is now reversed with more teams with an over abundance of space and a smaller number of "regular" FA that are highly valued. A team with a RFA is better off than a team with the same player as a UFA.
But only to the extent that you value him as much $$ wise as the rival GM who values him the most.

[Hoops23]

problem with the Teague for Noel trade, JT is a unrestricted free agent and can sign to a team he wants in 2017. Sixers is a bad team, so its easy to lure Teague from them if the contract is just the same.

[MaceCase]

problem with the Teague for Noel trade, JT is a unrestricted free agent and can sign to a team he wants in 2017. Sixers is a bad team, so its easy to lure Teague from them if the contract is just the same.

Then again you can probably see the value of a bad team trying to get a year to work with a guy and build a relationship with him though, right?

If they only try to pitch him, or anyone for that matter, in free agency they are more likely to just overlook that bad situation altogether if the money is the same or even more.

It's a different story once you've actually spent a year working with that locker room, coach and front office, and living in that community. These are things you can't really fit into a sales pitch even if you are lucky enough to get a visit in the first place.

[Hoops23]

problem with the Teague for Noel trade, JT is a unrestricted free agent and can sign to a team he wants in 2017. Sixers is a bad team, so its easy to lure Teague from them if the contract is just the same.

Then again you can probably see the value of a bad team trying to get a year to work with a guy and build a relationship with him though, right?

If they only try to pitch him, or anyone for that matter, in free agency they are more likely to just overlook that bad situation altogether if the money is the same or even more.

It's a different story once you've actually spent a year working with that locker room, coach and front office, and living in that community. These are things you can't really fit into a sales pitch even if you are lucky enough to get a visit in the first place.

there's a lot of players who jump to another team in spite spending a lot of years in a franchise, what more just a season and a losing season. Losing gets in to players mind, especially to veteran players who love winnings and use to winnings. I know you just want to make a case for your team in getting Noel. And I'm a neutral fan here. A player in Teague's caliber can choose of a team to his liking, and a players always wants into a better situation. If Teague agrees that he will sign an extension with the Sixer if he is trade there, then the rumored deal has a chance. Or perhaps if the Hawks sweaten the deal.

[MaceCase]

problem with the Teague for Noel trade, JT is a unrestricted free agent and can sign to a team he wants in 2017. Sixers is a bad team, so its easy to lure Teague from them if the contract is just the same.

Then again you can probably see the value of a bad team trying to get a year to work with a guy and build a relationship with him though, right?

If they only try to pitch him, or anyone for that matter, in free agency they are more likely to just overlook that bad situation altogether if the money is the same or even more.

It's a different story once you've actually spent a year working with that locker room, coach and front office, and living in that community. These are things you can't really fit into a sales pitch even if you are lucky enough to get a visit in the first place.

there's a lot of players who jump to another team in spite spending a lot of years in a franchise, what more just a season and a losing season. Losing gets in to players mind, especially to veteran players who love winnings and use to winnings. I know you just want to make a case for your team in getting Noel. And I'm a neutral fan here. A player in Teague's caliber can choose of a team to his liking, and a players always wants into a better situation. If Teague agrees that he will sign an extension with the Sixer if he is trade there, then the rumored deal has a chance. Or perhaps if the Hawks sweaten the deal.

Well speaking from experience as an Atlanta fan I know that teams that are perceived as being dumpster fires have a very hard time convincing free agents otherwise even if they are lucky enough to get a dinner or meeting in.

But this isn't me just "making a case for my team", this is me making a perfectly logical case for Philly. It's because Philly would have zero to little chance at a player of Teague's caliber in free agency that they have to do their work early by pursuing the trade market. He's just one piece towards rebuilding though, the trade helps balance their roster while also having a steady veteran there at a position of need to maximize their current big man assets. Convincing one highly touted veteran to stay with their team also increases the likelihood that they could attract even more

Noel and Okafor are not just being shopped to the Hawks btw, clearly the Sixers recognize that having 5 players that play the same two positions with no veteran presence or player to even put those guys in a position to succeed is not an ideal situation, thus why they are expendable. Noel particularly because he is also going to be a free agent, even though they could retain him they can't justify investing time that could be going to someone else and money that could be invested in other positions of need just to do so.

From a neutral perspective it should be easier for you to see things from both teams' perspectives but you've failed in that. The Sixers are well past the point of just acquiring the best possible assets regardless of fit thus why the league itself had to step in and precipitate the shake up of their front office. These string of events aren't just coincidence, the message is clear that they need to build a NBA caliber team now.

From the Hawks' perspective it isn't as though Noel is this incredible get, he's a decent return on a player deemed expendable because there's a capable replacement already on the roster. Much the same as Philly doesn't find it sensible to invest a greater amount of money and time on the same position the Hawks have the same sentiment.

[FlightBrothers]

Interesting fact. Noel and Teague are represented by the same agency. Perhaps both realize they have a replacement in their current situation and would welcome a trade to another team with more opportunity especially since each have large potential contracts looming very soon.

[Ericb5]

As Sixer fan, what you guys are missing is that we aren't in a tough spot contractually with Nerlens.

He can't leave at the end of this season unless we let him go, and we can always sign and trade him if we wanted to, or we could trade him at the deadline.

I am one of the few Sixers fans that seems to be ok with trading him for Teague, but only if we can extend him at the time of the deal. We can't give Noel away for nothing, and if Teague walks at the end of the year then we would have given him away for nothing.

Teague apparently has a fairly unique contract situation where he can be given a big raise in year one, and then lower figures in the subsequent years. If we did something like that it would be a good way for him to get paid while we are still preserving our flexibility for the future.


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[PandaKidd]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/242220/76ers-Prefer-To-Trade-Jahlil-Okafor-Over-Nerlens-Noel

[Jamaaliver]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/242220/76ers-Prefer-To-Trade-Jahlil-Okafor-Over-Nerlens-Noel

A. I'd kinda rather have Okafor over Noel, anyway.

B. I can't help but think Philly has some buyer's remorse on Jahlil, however. Between the maturity issues, the injury, the lack of defense, the limited offensive game.

Feels like they're dumping the kid before his stock drops precipitously.

[td00]

Last year may have just been a bad year for Okafor, but now he's coming off an injury.

The Sixers still appear convinced Embiid will be back, and that means one too many young big men that mainly blocks shots.

No one is taking a chance on Embiid, and I don't think the Sixers can accept defeat on Okafor already. They need to start bringing in a backcourt, and while they will grab Simmons, he's not going to improve them for next season. Another painful year if the Sixers don't get 2-3 vets in that starting lineup.

The Sixers are the opposite of the Hawks; we are all about experience and steadiness. The Sixers have to be more eager to do a Noel/Teague deal than Bud. Noel will not start if Al comes back.

[rzzzzz]

A. I'd kinda rather have Okafor over Noel, anyway.

B. I can't help but think Philly has some buyer's remorse on Jahlil, however. Between the maturity issues, the injury, the lack of defense, the limited offensive game.

Feels like they're dumping the kid before his stock drops precipitously.

the team that wants Okafor the most are the Celtics. Danny getting Ford to badmouth him isn't hard. the question is, can he get Colangelo to accept less than what Hinkie turned down at the deadline. Brett Brown wants to keep him around and develop him, and seems to have gotten a nice favor out of his old boss Popovich, who picked him and will coach him for the Select team that scrimmages against Team USA next month. despite what the local pundits might say, the fact that Jah is back in Phily, scrimmaging with Embiid at the same time rookies are being worked out suggests he's sticking around.

Noel would be a great get for any number of teams. seems like a better fit on the Cavaliers than Love, for example.

[nybluemeadow]

Last year may have just been a bad year for Okafor, but now he's coming off an injury.

The Sixers still appear convinced Embiid will be back, and that means one too many young big men that mainly blocks shots.

No one is taking a chance on Embiid, and I don't think the Sixers can accept defeat on Okafor already. They need to start bringing in a backcourt, and while they will grab Simmons, he's not going to improve them for next season. Another painful year if the Sixers don't get 2-3 vets in that starting lineup.

The Sixers are the opposite of the Hawks; we are all about experience and steadiness. The Sixers have to be more eager to do a Noel/Teague deal than Bud. Noel will not start if Al comes back.

Sixers were backed into a corner last year when Russell was taken #2 (just like how they missed out on Wiggins and were forced to take Embiid). The three top prospects at that point was Okafor, Kristap, and Mudiay. Alot of teams went sour on Mudiay at the last minute so it came down to Okafor and Kristap. Kristap was pegged as a project who wanted to come over to the NBA right away. So the Sixers had to take Okafor, because of the three guys, Okafor seems like the guy they could flip the fastest.

That is why i don't think injury issues have anything to do with why the Sixers are looking for trades for Okafor. Sixers at this point just have a very rare problem of having too many high draft picks.

Even if Okafor didn't have surgery this year, i still think the Sixers would still look to trade Okafor to balance out their roster.

[td00]

Looks like the JT noise is building once again, and there's a chance Bud can move us up in the draft.

JT + all of this year's picks may not be enough to get to the Top 5, which I suggested this is the only way we move up in this draft. What I do like it its good to hear Bud isn't satisfied with the current roster and the potential of losing Al. The problem is Boston has 8 picks, including #3, and they are going to try and get some value that could help that roster next year.

I'm not seeing all the talent that Philly supposedly has in the front court...its still all potential because they are getting hammered during the year and have shown little improvement the entire time they started gutting that roster.

Just curious the Hawks ranking of this year's group....

[Jamaaliver]

Looks like the JT noise is building once again, and there's a chance Bud can move us up in the draft.

We HAVE to move JT0 this summer.

I still maintain that last summer was the time to do it: Teague (coming off an All Star season, with 2 years under contract) + last year's #15 draft pick could have gotten us some serious top value.

We HAVE to stop waiting until the value drops on players before we consider trading them.

Identify the long-term keepers, and be willing to move anyone else at the right time to improve LONG-TERM.

We shouldn't waste time chasing Durant...but instead getting good deals on players on the trade block whose stock is currently low.

Oladipo, Enes Kanter, Kevin Love, James Harden, Danny Green, Shaun Livingston, George Hill, Andre Iguodala, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Jahlil Okafor, Brook Lopez, Otto Porter, Marc Gasol, Blake Griffin, Rudy Gay, Alex Lin, D'Angelo Russell.

Buy low...Sell High. If we can't get lucky, then we have to be smart. Be opportunistic. Manage assets better.