Carmelo anyone??

[JoshB914]

You guys love your stats. But until Melo proves something when it matters I'm not interested in committing our future to him.

[Rip2137]

I think its silly to be on the whole "blind homer" crap.

Negate a point I made and then maybe you can talk.

Marketablility - Undenible that Carmelo has gone lowe and lower down the marketing food chain since he entered the league. If you are arguing that Smith is less marketable than him, then you should never run a marketing firm.

On the court - Melo is a by far superior scorer and will probably get you around 10 points more per game than Smith. HOWEVER. His defense is SO bad and this team depends on Smiths defense SO much that combined with Mike bibby, and no Smith, we would give up a good 17-18 more points a game more than we did before the bibby trade.

the team would be worse. If we add another coach that doesn't suck or Joe isn't horrible for 4 months, we can easily win 45 games with this roster now. Add melo, we still win around 45 games in the regular season and will get our ass handed to us in the playoffs. I dont think people are taking into account the amount of covering for teammates Smith does now and how many shots are missed around the basket against us JUST because people are scared of where Josh Smith is.

That is basketball knowledge. If you ar saying trade you best defender that also happenes to give you 17-18 points a game for a guy that would become your worst defender that gives you 26-28 points a game, then you are building a team that will lose.

Like I said before, trading him for Marvin, Bibby...hell Joe would make more sense in a basketball and marketing standpoint. Trading him for Smith makes NO sense on either end.

[richboy]

Melo defense is not that bad. Really its just average. He gets criticism for his defense because some feel like he could be more. In this case he doesn't have to be as good defensively as Josh Smith. He only has to be as good as Marvin Williams. Which he probably better than already.

Denver plays defense. People say Denver doesn't play defense because of there points per game. There opponents fg% and points given by possession was really middle of the league. Denver averaged 100 possessions per game so they were going to give up some high scoring games.

Horford would take over for Smith and getting a defensive presence at center would be the biggest need. I can't see any reason why they couldnt be a better defensive team.

You really think its basketball knowledge that a team with Melo, JJ, Bibby, Horford couldn't win more than 37 games. Hosh Smith is one of the least effective offensive players in the NBA at his level. He plays a entire midrange game at mid 40%. Despite being an amazing athlete doesn't go to the line that much.

Let me tell you first hand. People dont want to trade Josh because they love Josh. Coming up with ridiculous reasons why they wouldnt make the trade. Whats funny is every time these players are traded it takes 1 week before they realize they made the right move.

The only way you should say no I wont do the move is if you could get a big time scorer without giving up Josh Smith. Perhaps Richard Jefferson or Vince Carter could be had for a lot less. Perhaps a sign and trade for Maggette could be made without giving up Smith. Then obviously your need for Anthony becomes less. Don't do that then I would not expect a team with Josh as its second best offensive player to ever be very good offensively.

[High 5]

17.2 points, 3.4 assists on 46% shooting is pretty effective. His FG% would be at 48% if he didn't take any three's. If he replaced those three's with drives his FG% and PPG would both improve. His problem is he tries to do too much. If he ever realizes his limitations and gets the most out of his athleticism he will be an extremely effective offensive player. You also can't ignore all his blocks that lead to fast breaks and easy points for other guys.

And if Marvin would learn how to stay on his feet he'd easily be our 2nd best offensive player.

[richboy]

17.2 points, 3.4 assists on 46% shooting is pretty effective. His FG% would be at 48% if he didn't take any three's. If he replaced those three's with drives his FG% and PPG would both improve. His problem is he tries to do too much. If he ever realizes his limitations and gets the most out of his athleticism he will be an extremely effective offensive player. You also can't ignore all his blocks that lead to fast breaks and easy points for other guys.

And if Marvin would learn how to stay on his feet he'd easily be our 2nd best offensive player.

46% is not effective for a PF. Its pretty close to the lowest that you would want for your PF to shoot. Josh is pretty much one of the worst shooting PFs in the league. Most of his shots are no further than 15 feet. He should 6 or 7 points higher in fg% and going to the line at a higher rate. His offensive rating right now ranks below the average NBA player.

[parson]

CA only beats Smoove in scoring by about 8 pts/game; that's all. In all of the other major stats, Josh Smith is equal or superior. Add in the fact that CA is a poor, often apathetic defender and it's not hard to support Smoove. Anyone who thinks that 8 stinking points ALONE makes CA "superior" needs to buy some tickets and watch some games.

There are some ratings that put Smoove higher (Roland, anyone?) but the real difference is in their game play. Smoove changes games, CA simply piles on when he has the advantage.

As for the "draw" angle, who cares? That's an argument for those who have nothing better to say.

[Rip2137]

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46% is not effective for a PF. Its pretty close to the lowest that you would want for your PF to shoot. Josh is pretty much one of the worst shooting PFs in the league. Most of his shots are no further than 15 feet. He should 6 or 7 points higher in fg% and going to the line at a higher rate. His offensive rating right now ranks below the average NBA player.

Dude this is kinda ridiculous.

Basically you are saying that he should be shooting 53% and taking more freethrows?

he is number 10 in the league amoung forwards in freethrows right now. .1 percent behind Tim Duncan and Elton Brand for 7th. How many freaking freethrows does he need to take? he shot 47.2 percent after a bad first month (which proved to be a anomally on the season for him).

That would put him around number 22 for the season amoung forwards and this is counting guys like Hakim Warrick who only takes 8 shots a night.

So how exactly would that put him below average offensive player? Percentage? No. FTA? No. what else are you basing it on.

[conleyorbust]

Yeah richboy, you usually have some good analysis but Smith takes quite a few FTs considering how his shot volume.

[Sultanofatl]

oh well, good thing this has 0 chance of happening. Denver would never do this as a straight up trade. And if the Hawks management thinks like you guys do, then Atlanta wouldn't either.

[richboy]

Smith offensive rating is barely 100. That means he produces less offense with the plays that he gets than the average NBA player. He is way more athlete and dynamic than Tim Duncan. If he going to play the style he plays he should be getting to the line more atleast 2 more a game and shooting a higher percentage. I don't think I'm asking 2 much. I also would like to see him on the offensive glass a lot more.l

Pason. Melo is a lot better offensively than Josh Smith. 8 points doesn't tell the story and in reality Melo has averaged as much as 11 more than Josh for a season and was averaging over 30 a game before the Iverson trade. He was doing that one of the top offensive teams in the league. While Josh's effiency numbers really suggest that right now he probably a 13 points per game player on better teams. Not to mention he can average 4 assist and commands a constant double team. This is about more than 8 points. A combination of Joe Johnson and Melo would flat out scare the Eastern Conference.

[conleyorbust]

Smith offensive rating is barely 100. That means he produces less offense with the plays that he gets than the average NBA player. He is way more athlete and dynamic than Tim Duncan. If he going to play the style he plays he should be getting to the line more atleast 2 more a game and shooting a higher percentage. I don't think I'm asking 2 much. I also would like to see him on the offensive glass a lot more.l

offensive rating?

he is also in the top 20 in defensive rating but Melo is nowhere to be found in either.

on the other hand, Josh Childress is the 4th best offensive player in the game. Haha, we didn't need Chris Paul because the only metric that matters says that Childress is better than him!

Granted, there are a lot of holes in Smith's game but our team played much worse with him off the court than it did with him on it. Something that can't be said for Melo. Check them stats.

[gsuteke]

Have you guys seen what those fools on the Denver board want for Carmelo?


LOL

[Rip2137]

Smith offensive rating is barely 100. That means he produces less offense with the plays that he gets than the average NBA player. He is way more athlete and dynamic than Tim Duncan. If he going to play the style he plays he should be getting to the line more atleast 2 more a game and shooting a higher percentage. I don't think I'm asking 2 much. I also would like to see him on the offensive glass a lot more.l

Pason. Melo is a lot better offensively than Josh Smith. 8 points doesn't tell the story and in reality Melo has averaged as much as 11 more than Josh for a season and was averaging over 30 a game before the Iverson trade. He was doing that one of the top offensive teams in the league. While Josh's effiency numbers really suggest that right now he probably a 13 points per game player on better teams. Not to mention he can average 4 assist and commands a constant double team. This is about more than 8 points. A combination of Joe Johnson and Melo would flat out scare the Eastern Conference.

the Hawks had the lowest pace factor int he NBA. Melo plays in a uptempo offense. In a slower paced offense, Melo wouldn't average near 30 and Smith would average more than 17.

But thats not the point, everyone knows Melo is a better scorer than Smith. thats not the question.

Point is, Carmelo gets here, he becomes the worse defender on the team. So you can trade for him, but what you can't do is trade your best defender and a guy that only averages 8 points less. the team gives up alot more points with Smith out. The put the more points that they will give up with Melo on the team and the difference that his scoring brings will be gone.

Oh, and since when does carmelo demand a double team? Who doubles him?

[richboy]

[quote="conleyorbust"][/quote]

Well you could only compare players with compariable usage. Josh Childress is just a role player.

On court off court has a lot to do with a backups performance. For example Atlanta plays horrible without Josh but its not like they play great with him. In reality its more of an indictment on the guys that come in for Josh Smith or when they play Marvin Williams at PF.

Denver has so many offensive weapons Melo value to them isn't nearly as much as it would be with an offensively challenged team like Atlanta. Denver has guys coming off the bench that have scored 40 points in a game.

[gsuteke]

waste of time

[richboy]

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the Hawks had the lowest pace factor int he NBA. Melo plays in a uptempo offense. In a slower paced offense, Melo wouldn't average near 30 and Smith would average more than 17.

But thats not the point, everyone knows Melo is a better scorer than Smith. thats not the question.

Point is, Carmelo gets here, he becomes the worse defender on the team. So you can trade for him, but what you can't do is trade your best defender and a guy that only averages 8 points less. the team gives up alot more points with Smith out. The put the more points that they will give up with Melo on the team and the difference that his scoring brings will be gone.

Oh, and since when does carmelo demand a double team? Who doubles him?

When do you watch games? Melo is often double teamed especially when he goes to the post.

Melo the worst defender on the team? Are you joking? This is the same team with Mike Bibby. I hear some say Childress is a good defender but he looks like one of the worst defenders on the Hawks to me. Melo is not that bad defensively. You move Horford to PF and get a center like Diop. Hire yourself a defensive coach and you be fine on defense and offense.

[conleyorbust]

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Well you could only compare players with compariable usage. Josh Childress is just a role player.

On court off court has a lot to do with a backups performance. For example Atlanta plays horrible without Josh but its not like they play great with him. In reality its more of an indictment on the guys that come in for Josh Smith or when they play Marvin Williams at PF.

Denver has so many offensive weapons Melo value to them isn't nearly as much as it would be with an offensively challenged team like Atlanta. Denver has guys coming off the bench that have scored 40 points in a game.

translation:

"The only statistical measures that are worth a damn are the ones I use"

Look, you say that the numbers show Smith is an average offensive player and I say that Melo's team does better when he sits on the bench.

You say Melo's team does better with him on the bench because his backups are better than him. I say that Smith doesn't produce enough points because he is put in an offensive system where he rarely gets the ball in places he is effective (high post, low post, in transition, in motion, in open space) but usually gets it on the perimeter where he is very ineffective.

Your numbers aren't more "true" than mine and your explainations don't hold any more weight than mine. At the end of the day you have to go with what you know.

This is what I know, Melo is a great offensive player whose offensive impact is diminished because of the system he plays in. He is also a very bad defender, he has solid but not amazing physical tools for the job and he gives as little effort as any player in the game.

Smith is a great defensive player with a developing offensive game. He can be very effective if used in certain ways, he can get to the line against great defenders (3 games of 10 or more FTA against KG in the playoffs), he can pass the ball, and he has a decent low post game. He turns it over too much and has a shot selection problem but has shown the ability to improve.

I'd put more stock in Smith improving his offense than Melo improving his defense.

Now at the end of the day, Atlanta management still makes this trade if its offered. There is the potential to make a lot of money.

I just hope it doesn't happen because Smith is the soul of this team, he is a hard worker who gives his all and he has a chance to be as special a player as Carmelo - not that he will be necessarilly, but he does have a good shot.

Finally, the least or most important factor depending on who you are talking to, this city is reeling from the Vick mess (regardless of how you want to view people's reactions to it), if Melo can't keep himself out of trouble in Denver he'd have a ball in Atlanta.

[conleyorbust]

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When do you watch games? Melo is often double teamed especially when he goes to the post.

Melo the worst defender on the team? Are you joking? This is the same team with Mike Bibby. I hear some say Childress is a good defender but he looks like one of the worst defenders on the Hawks to me. Melo is not that bad defensively. You move Horford to PF and get a center like Diop. Hire yourself a defensive coach and you be fine on defense and offense.

... and yes Melo does get doubled and he is a better defender than Bibby but probably not Childress who is one of the worst defenders on the Hawks.

[parson]

Pason. Melo is a lot better offensively than Josh Smith.

Reputation, reputation, reputation. That's what this is all about.

Somebody'd better look at Josh Smith's #s and then just watch him a little. Right now, he can fly to the hoop anytime he wants to, against anybody. When he learns to control his drives better, he'll score like 'Nique.

[tontoz]

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the Hawks had the lowest pace factor int he NBA. Melo plays in a uptempo offense.

The Hawks were 18th in the league in pace. I love the way people just make stuff up and pretend it is a fact.

Denver did play at the fastest pace in the league.