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simple would you do that?

No. Then again, I don't sign Joe Johnson to 6/$123 either.

Of course we will do it but I doubt Toronto would do it. They will have to take Zaza's contract as well.

Calderon is a top 15 PG when healthy.

gurpilo wrote:Of course we will do it but I doubt Toronto would do it. They will have to take Zaza's contract as well.

Calderon is a top 15 PG when healthy.

Calderon is on a bad contract and can't play defense. I think that if Toronto could dump him for expirings and Bibby's much smaller deal they would.

No, the ASG wouldn't do it and neither would I. A couple years ago I would have rolled the dice on Jose Calderon because his stats looked similar to Nash before he exploded to be an MVP. The thing is he got paid handsomely and the stats went the other way. He's on a bad contract now and no longer seems likely to reach his promise. Even if you hoped that he could bounce back knowing the ASG's financial situation they aren't going to tie up the additional cap space in Calderon and force paying luxury tax to keep Al Horford next year.

While those were the main reasons why we wouldn't want Calderon, the other issue is what do we need at PG. Defensively under the current rules all you can do is stay in front of the offensive guy as well as possible. So you need a guy with excellent speed and quickness especially side-to-side. Calderon has never showed that much defensively. Offensively you need the speed and quickness to take advantage of the same rules. Court vision and passing instincts are important but under current rules speed rules. That's really what we need. That's as hard to match up with as Dwight Howard considering how the rules are called. I don't think we're going to find that in trade (would cost a core player that the ASG isn't ready to deal). We might be able to get that in the draft depending on how high we pick, but even then the player will take a few years (depending on the player) to lead a championship level team by then Joe Johnson will be a 20M dollar shell of his former self and we're likely to have shed other pieces due to financial limitations. The only way things really work out for the Hawks is if that PG is Jeff Teague (or possibly a free agent who hits the ground running like maybe Patty Mills if he is unattached at the start of the season, but that is a long shot).

evildallas wrote:No, the ASG wouldn't do it and neither would I. A couple years ago I would have rolled the dice on Jose Calderon because his stats looked similar to Nash before he exploded to be an MVP. The thing is he got paid handsomely and the stats went the other way. He's on a bad contract now and no longer seems likely to reach his promise. Even if you hoped that he could bounce back knowing the ASG's financial situation they aren't going to tie up the additional cap space in Calderon and force paying luxury tax to keep Al Horford next year.

While those were the main reasons why we wouldn't want Calderon, the other issue is what do we need at PG. Defensively under the current rules all you can do is stay in front of the offensive guy as well as possible. So you need a guy with excellent speed and quickness especially side-to-side. Calderon has never showed that much defensively. Offensively you need the speed and quickness to take advantage of the same rules. Court vision and passing instincts are important but under current rules speed rules. That's really what we need. That's as hard to match up with as Dwight Howard considering how the rules are called. I don't think we're going to find that in trade (would cost a core player that the ASG isn't ready to deal). We might be able to get that in the draft depending on how high we pick, but even then the player will take a few years (depending on the player) to lead a championship level team by then Joe Johnson will be a 20M dollar shell of his former self and we're likely to have shed other pieces due to financial limitations. The only way things really work out for the Hawks is if that PG is Jeff Teague (or possibly a free agent who hits the ground running like maybe Patty Mills if he is unattached at the start of the season, but that is a long shot).

As a Raptors fan I must point out ALL that is wrong with this statement...or paragraph, whatever. Jose Calderon, at no point, had similar stats to Steve Nash. Steve Nash was the MVP when Jose was a backup at the end of the bench. Jose Calderon has had a total of ONE bad season (last year) and everybody has given up on him. Right after he got his contract, which by the way is very fair considering you guys just gave Joe Johnson more money than LeBron James, he had a career high 8.9 assists and 12 points. His defensive issues are nothing compared to Mike Bibby's, not to mention with Josh Smith and Al Horford protecting the net his defensive woes will not be as apparent as it was in Toronto with Bosh and Bargnani, two horrible defensive players.

Also, I must address the part where you said offensively Calderon is not fast. Defensively, he is slow, offensively, when healthy, he is very good at penetrating and finding the open man. Hell, he got 8.9 assists with a bad hip! If your team runs he'll average a crazy amount, if your team slows down he'll be able to make the RIGHT decision most of the time. Bash Calderon all you want, but make sure your facts are correct.

^^^ Dear Toronto fan please get your facts straight before calling me out. You realize you can compare different years in player's careers right? There is a 7 year age difference, I wouldn't expect them to be at different points on their career curves. Look at Steve Nash's stats before he exploded 2003-2004 and compare those to Jose Calderon 2007-2008. If you go back even further you'll see that Steve Nash didn't put up impressive stats until he was 26 years old which happened to be how old Jose Calderon was in 2007-2008.

Jose Calderon 2007-2008 51.9% FG 42.9% 3pt 11.2 ppg 8.9 apg
Steve Nash 2003-2004 47.0% FG 40.5% 3pt 14.5 ppg 8.8 apg

The big key is the shooting from PG. His numbers showed the promise that Nash's did when Phoenix signed him. The difference is scoring average could be attributed to getting the line at a higher rate and taking more shots in the Dallas offense. After those respective similar seasons Steve Nash took less than he hoped for in free agency and signed with Phoenix because Mark Cuban thought he would be too old at the end of his contract and had something to prove. He did with 2 MVPs and embracing a system that highlighted his skills in spite of his poor defense. His shooting blossomed with him always over 50% from the field and over 42% from 3pt range in Phoenix. Jose Calderon signed a new deal after that season as well. He attempted to assert himself the following year and his shooting percentages went down but he did get to line 2.3 times a game (a career high). His assists went up slightly, but there was no breakout that was hoped for. Last year his minutes went down and he lost his hold on the job. Now he's being shopped. In those 2 years his shooting percentages from 3pt range and the field as a whole have dropped each season. He's now shooting only 48.2% from the field and just below 40% from 3. Still good numbers for a PG but trending poorly.

My comments on speed and penetration is mainly in response to low free throw attempts by Jose Calderon and watching him against the Hawks. His career average is 1.7 FTA per game and his high was that contract season when he got 2.3 FTA. The majority of Nash's season have more than 2.8 FTA per game with a high season of 4.1 FTA. It may not show an inability to get to the hoop but it does show a greater willingness to settle for a jumper. His assists are due to strong passing and vision, but he hasn't proven to be the PG that can cause a defense to crumble like Rondo did against Cleveland. Again it might not be lack of speed, it might have something to do with attitude, but Jose hasn't proven to be that guy.

I didn't say he was as bad on defense as Bibby, but he isn't a significant upgrade either. Given the contract and our financial tightness Jose isn't going to be our guy.

I would prefer to do a Bibby + Marvin + future 1st for Iguodala + future 2nd.
I would the take a chance on Iverson with Teague and JC at the PG.
Iverson would bring tickets, at least for a short time !

AI- Teague- JC
JJ- JC- JC2
AI2- Mo
Smoothe- Al- Powell
Al- Zaza- Boone- Collins

Then move Smoothe-JC- picks and AI (to be bought out) to NO for Paul and Okafor

Paul- teague
JJ- JC2- Sy
AI2- Mo
Al- zaza- Powell
Okafor-Boone- Collins

i don't like Calderon, but Josh and Al could hide Jose's defensive weakness, just like they did for Bibby in 2008

I'm a fan of Calderon. We need a real PG like him. No matter what Drew's offense is, when the defense tightens or the clock is running out, we'll have to have one man to put the ball in his hands and make things happen. That man has been Joe -- I'd love for it to be a pure PG.

Plus, Calderon's contract coincides with what I think will be Teague's learning curve. Hopefully, Teague will be ready to take over about the time the contract runs out.

I agree with parson here in that I wouldn't mind taking a flier on Calderon. At the very least, he adds a nice jump shooting option to our O and I think he could do much more with the athleticism of our front court than we're seeing now. However, any trade with the ASG will require the following:
1) we don't take on any $$ immediately (we're too tight against the tax)
2) the # of players incoming is either = or > the number of players outgoing (once again, too tight against the cap and we've still got to finish off our roster)
3) we need enough room next year to keep Horford with a nice raise (tax implications last > 1 year).

This trade accomplishes none of these objectives.

Without knowing how the CBA will work out the details are hard to project, but assuming similar to current rules we can figure some stuff out. We currently have almost 53M committed to salary for 7 players next year before signing Al. If he gets a max offer elsewhere it could be 13.5M starting. That would be 66.5M + salary of a 1st round (let's est. $1M) 67.5 with 4 players to sign. With those 4 at the minimum, that would be right around a luxury tax threshold given the last couple years and that is with letting Evans walk and Jamal Crawford walk. Calderon makes 3.3M more than Bibby in 2011-2012 which means that we almost guarantee luxury tax to take him on or losing Al Horford. I just don't see Jose Calderon as the PG worth taking that risk for.

ev, you're right, but I've convinced that - as constructed - our team will soon have to remain in the luxury tax or disband, anyway. What happens in 3 years if Teague proves to be upper-echelon?

For all I know, maybe the ASG has plans to re-sign JC and trade Joe next year. Maybe they feel (as I do) that they couldn't let Joe go for nothing but maybe they also feel (as many here have said) that they cannot keep the team together with Joe's contract. Maybe they didn't CARE how much Joe was making if someone else was going to pay off the remainder of it....

Maybe they have telekinetic powers and are planning to cave in the roof when the Heat play the Magic, but I don't think that's any more or less realistic than the scenario where the ASG knows what the hell they're doing.

parson wrote:ev, you're right, but I've convinced that - as constructed - our team will soon have to remain in the luxury tax or disband, anyway. What happens in 3 years if Teague proves to be upper-echelon?

For all I know, maybe the ASG has plans to re-sign JC and trade Joe next year. Maybe they feel (as I do) that they couldn't let Joe go for nothing but maybe they also feel (as many here have said) that they cannot keep the team together with Joe's contract. Maybe they didn't CARE how much Joe was making if someone else was going to pay off the remainder of it....

I think they are doing everything they can to make sure they are able to lock up Al after that I don't know what will happen, but I did envision them breaking up the team in 3 years which is one of the reasons I am saddened they didn't go all out this year. If Teague proves to be upper echelon he might get signed as Josh leaves town, without paying they will never round out a full product. The only way I see JC back is if this year goes horrible and Joe is dealt at the deadline to a team with deep pockets looking to make a run. I think the long term prospects are better if that happens (which is why it probably won't happen).

Few items here:
1) I don't think that Horford will command a max contract. Even without considering anything new in the CBA, Horford is more solid than spectacular. He's a 15/10 guy, has solid intangibles, and plays solid D... that's just not max $$$ worthy. My guess is that Horford will command somewhere around $10 mil which would be a $4.5 mil raise for him and put his contract around what Smoove got... not bad.

2) I don't see Crawford being on the team come the 2011/12 season. Outside the financial implications that freeing up his $10 mil yields (basically, covering Horford's raise in his new contract and all the raises in every other player's contract), I don't think he'll be the fit that many believe he will be in LD's system. Last year, he was in a system specifically geared toward his game (iso heavy) and was put into a position where it was obvious he was not "the guy" (hard to be "the guy" when you're not starting on a team you're new to), and he had a career year. This year, the new system seems to demand more in terms of finding players who are being freed by off the ball movement... both of these traits are not Jamal's strength. Also, with the continued decline of Bibby, Jamal's big year last year, and the ? that is Jeff Teague, Jamal will think that he should have a bigger role than LD would otherwise give him (aka, thinking he's "the guy" again). Hopefully, Jo Crawford will develop enough that we won't have to go on the open market to find a replacement. If Jo Crawford develops quickly enough, the best case scenario would be that we could trade Ja Crawford for a useful prospect or young player at some point this season without taking back any long term salary.

3) JJ will be untradeable for at least 2 years... prolly 3. There's just too much risk in the back end of his deal for another team to take on until he's played out his 1st couple of years. Once he gets into year 3 or 4 of his deal and he proves that he's still showing no signs of slowing down, then he could be traded. Until then, I can't see any team deciding to take on the risk he presents... so forth actually give up value for him.

To me Calderon would be a HUGE upgrade over Bibby so I'd do that deal in a second. I think it would improve our team by several wins. Even though he's a bad defender, he's still better than Bibby and would be a great distributor which is exactly what our team needs.

As for the financial stuff, personally I don't care if we go into luxury tax territory. Whether we're willing to or not has already been decided by the JJ contract. Either he's getting traded in a year or two or we're losing Horford. Personally I'd like to think ASG will pay the tax.

BTW, we'll be lucky if Teague develops into a 12-9 guy...I'm assuming that's the 'ceiling' people see for him...I'd have a hard time buying he could be much better than that.

Horford will definitely get more than $10 mil if Brendan Haywood JUST got $9 mill. I'd estimate he gets $14-15 mill.

azuresou1 wrote:Horford will definitely get more than $10 mil if Brendan Haywood JUST got $9 mill. I'd estimate he gets $14-15 mill.

Only if NY or NJ, teams with cap space, see him as a true building block and want him that bad. Otherwise I think it's more like $12M....but we shall see, teams probably know we wouldn't match $15M (my guess). Who all has cap space next year anyway?

Calderon sounds like a young Bibby? So this trade swap an old Bibby for a young Bibby. Sounds good to me.

I don't know about his contract but it doesn't sound bad when he signs it. But Horford's up for extension so I don't know if it pushes the Hawks to luxury land and that's a no no (to the owners).