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If the big is Zaza...then I'd probably do it.

Sonrise wrote:http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1081440&start=60

Very interesting, but only 17 pages? I figured it would be closer to 50 by now.

Mike Bibby and Zaza Pachulia for Jose Calderon and maybe Solomon Alabi or Joey Dorsey? (I'd rather have Alabi for his length and upside, but Dorsey is a good rebounder). Emotional ties to Zaza and Bibby is playing so well this year, but it makes sense for both teams. Toronto would get out from under Calderon's contract and Zaza would allow them to play Bargnani at PF where his defensive softness might be less of a problem. Calderon gives us a younger version of Bibby, almost as proficient from deep and more of a creator on offense. Dorsey would give some rebounding off the bench or Alabi would give length that we could develop (hopefully). I could see it happening IF ownership believes that Jose is a perfect fit for the desired offense. Short of that the added financial commitment would probably stop it at rumor level.

I couldn't see TOR parting with Alabi. They aren't saving enough $$ to consider trading away a 1/2-decent 21 yo C prospect. Bibby + Zaza for Calderon + Dorsey would seem to be the deal. Can't say it's horrible. Zaza hasn't gotten much PT under LD and Calderon is an upgrade on Bibby. We'd only add a little less than $4 mil the season after next so it's not really a budget buster either. We'd have Teague and JC2 to compete for JC1 6th man role if he isn't resigned... just seems like we'd have a pretty versatile back court going forward without losing much in our weak front court.

Not the trade that puts us over the top, but a decent move.

Bibby and Zaza for Calderon would work, just so folks would know.

I like this:

Jose Calderon
Reggie Evans (Expiring; Out 8 Weeks)
Joey Dorsey

for

Marvin Williams
Zaza Pachulia
Jeff Teague

It unloads two years of ZaZa, Marvin Williams who has 3 years left, and we keep Mike Bibby for depth at the 1. Mike Bibby would come off our bench for open looks to knock down 3-pointers.

Calderon is alright but he's not really Playoff tested and would not be a major improvement over Bibby's sharpshooting, extreme ball security, and playoff experience...I'm pretty sure if we are going to move Bibby that we can get better than Calderon.

Note: Dalembert is frustrated with his decreased role in SAC and he'd be a major upgrade over Collins!!! With Dalembert at C, we'd have an extremely athletic, DEFENSIVE frontcourt, with 3 shotblockers that rebound and run! Dalembert basically said that he wants to play for a contender for the next 5 years if he's not going to be used in SAC to help them get better.

I'd offer this deal to SAC:
Marvin+Zaza+cash for Dalembert+Casspi and as you see the trade is successful and both teams would benefit greatly...

AND the biggest thing is he's an expiring contract!!!! So we can release him if he doesn't work out or with Zaza and Marvin's contract being moved, we could offer Daly a cheaper deal like around $6-7MIL per and maybe RESIGN JAMAL for $7-8MIL per (which is the most he'll probably get in FA)...

That should free up money to resign guys like Moe, Collins and cheap FAs to fill the roster next year...

Ok, we have a problem with Bibby's defense, that I get. Guess what? Calderon is probably as bad. The advantage of having Bibby is that he knows this team really well, complements JJ and can find our guys at the right spot. I'm not even mentioning that he can shoot lights out from 3pt range. The Hawks would be making a huge mistake if they traded for a PG like Calderon. We either must go for a PG who can get in the paint or a C. This team will not be any better if we don't solve these two problems.

Bibby/Zaza for Calderon/Alabi is a lateral move.

Skyhawk1 wrote:Ok, we have a problem with Bibby's defense, that I get. Guess what? Calderon is probably as bad. The advantage of having Bibby is that he knows this team really well, complements JJ and can find our guys at the right spot. I'm not even mentioning that he can shoot lights out from 3pt range. The Hawks would be making a huge mistake if they traded for a PG like Calderon. We either must go for a PG who can get in the paint or a C. This team will not be any better if we don't solve these two problems.

I don't understand this post. Bibby and Calderon are virtually the same player(bad defenders,low turnover rates,efficient scoring). Calderon has a little more on court value because of his passing but Bibby costs less. If they are going to take Zaza off our hands then I'd be more than fine with this trade.

Calderon is 3 years younger than Bibby and is more of a creator on the offensive end. It is true that he isn't a good defender. As good as Bibby is playing right now I think there may be a concern that he won't be able to maintain that through the length of his contract.

I like the Sacramento trade more, but why not go 3 way?

Atlanta gets:
Jose Calderon
Samuel Dalembert
Omri Casspi

Sacramento gets:
Marvin Williams
Zaza Pachulia

Toronto gets:
Mike Bibby
Mo Evans

Damien Wilkins could get resigned to fill out roster or we could add Joey Dorsey to deal to strengthen our bench rebounding (adds a minimum salary either way). I think that without getting Zaza that Toronto might not want to include Dorsey.

It puts us into the luxury tax for the year, but actually frees up an extra 8 million next year to possibly resign Jamal Crawford without going into the tax threshold then. It wouldn't be out of the question to resign both Crawford and Dalembert at reductions of their current large deals and keep this basic unit together for a couple years if works well done the stretch.

Calderon/Teague (Crawford would also see PG time)
Johnson/Crawford/Crawford/Sy
Smith/Casspi (Johnson would also see some SF time)
Horford/Powell (Smith would also see some PF time)
Dalembert/Collins/Thomas (Horford would also see some C time)

evildallas wrote:Atlanta gets:
Jose Calderon
Samuel Dalembert
Omri Casspi

Sacramento gets:
Marvin Williams
Zaza Pachulia

Toronto gets:
Mike Bibby
Mo Evans

I see no real incentive for Sacramento. For them to accept they'd need to very high on Marvin Williams and I highly doubt they're that high on him to give up a big expiring/Omri Casspi.

I can't see Calderon as a lateral move from Bibby. Sure, Bibby's has an incredible 3 PT % right now but that has dropped from a historic earlier this season to merely incredible which lends credence to the sustainability ? which were present earlier in the year and are still valid now; Calderon isn't too shabby as a spot up shooter from deep and has a track record that says he's at least as good as Bibby in this area.

But there are a handful of advantages Calderon gives over Bibby. 1st, Calderon is taller than Bibby and wouldn't be as tough to hide on D. Right now, when we face the quick PG, we end up with Bibby giving up both significant size and quickness to a SG while we're covering the PG with someone else (generally JJ, but we rotate a few guys on them with Teague being the primary when he's in the game). At least with Calderon the size advantage against the opposing SG is diminished somewhat leaving the opponent having to drive through our athletic bigs to the basket.

2nd, and the reason the biggest reason for this not being a lateral move, is that Calderon can come up with a 10+ assist night seemingly at will when he's feeling it; Bibby hasn't had a 10+ assist night in just a little less than a full calendar year. We've pleaded for a "pass-1st" PG for some time now to help tap into the athletic talents of Smoove, Horford, and (perhaps especially) Marvin. Well, here he is and we're balking over giving up Bibby?!? The guy he'd replace anyway? Odd that...

I'm not saying that Calderon is the key piece or anything, but I do think he'd add something that we're missing without losing much in areas that are strengths. The deal isn't cost prohibitive and would actually give us a little flexibility next year (we do add $4 mil the season after next but actually lose $1-2 mil in salaries next season). It just seems like a decent deal... not one that I'd pull the trigger on immediately or anything, but come the deadline if we haven't found anything better, then yeah, I'd pull the trigger.

My logic on Sacramento is that Dalembert is making waves and they are currently a team with a lot of young talent that isn't meshing well together. Marvin gives them a solid SF (albeit not spectacular) who'll play D and has history of being able to work well with others. Zaza gives them a tough 5 who can replace what they're giving up in Dalembert while young projects develop like Whiteside.

The trade could easily be modified to this:
Atlanta gets:
Jose Calderon
Samuel Dalembert
Omri Casspi
Joey Dorsey

Sacramento gets:
Marvin Williams
Reggie Evans (expiring)

Toronto gets
Mike Bibby
Mo Evans
Zaza Pachulia

And then Sacramento is getting a young, amiable SF and an expiring deal instead of Zaza's deal and Toronto gets a tough C so they can move Bargnani to PF. If they aren't totally enamored with Williams we could look at adding a pick (2nd round) to seal the deal, but I'm hoping that he still has enough value to close the deal without it.

theatlfan wrote:I can't see Calderon as a lateral move from Bibby. Sure, Bibby's has an incredible 3 PT % right now but that has dropped from a historic earlier this season to merely incredible which lends credence to the sustainability ? which were present earlier in the year and are still valid now; Calderon isn't too shabby as a spot up shooter from deep and has a track record that says he's at least as good as Bibby in this area.

But there are a handful of advantages Calderon gives over Bibby. 1st, Calderon is taller than Bibby and wouldn't be as tough to hide on D. Right now, when we face the quick PG, we end up with Bibby giving up both significant size and quickness to a SG while we're covering the PG with someone else (generally JJ, but we rotate a few guys on them with Teague being the primary when he's in the game). At least with Calderon the size advantage against the opposing SG is diminished somewhat leaving the opponent having to drive through our athletic bigs to the basket.

2nd, and the reason the biggest reason for this not being a lateral move, is that Calderon can come up with a 10+ assist night seemingly at will when he's feeling it; Bibby hasn't had a 10+ assist night in just a little less than a full calendar year. We've pleaded for a "pass-1st" PG for some time now to help tap into the athletic talents of Smoove, Horford, and (perhaps especially) Marvin. Well, here he is and we're balking over giving up Bibby?!? The guy he'd replace anyway? Odd that...

I'm not saying that Calderon is the key piece or anything, but I do think he'd add something that we're missing without losing much in areas that are strengths. The deal isn't cost prohibitive and would actually give us a little flexibility next year (we do add $4 mil the season after next but actually lose $1-2 mil in salaries next season). It just seems like a decent deal... not one that I'd pull the trigger on immediately or anything, but come the deadline if we haven't found anything better, then yeah, I'd pull the trigger.

Calderon is better than Bibby. Zaza is worlds better than Joey Dorsey or Alabi at this point in his career. The two cancel out.

azuresou1 wrote:Calderon is better than Bibby. Zaza is worlds better than Joey Dorsey or Alabi at this point in his career. The two cancel out.

Not really though... Zaza is barely over replacement level this season. He's so maddeningly inconsistent that he's barely playing more than garbage minutes now. At least Dorsey consistently gets after it on the boards. Anyway, even a "good" Zaza is worth only mildly more than what we could get from our collection of vet mini C's for the 10-15 minutes he gets. Meanwhile, Calderon would be a decent upgrade on Bibby and whoever else mans the PG position for us that night for at least 30+ mins/night that we'd prolly run Calderon out there for. Hence, we get the upgrade for at least 2x the minutes, while the downgrade is closer to replacement level anyway and we've got the replacement level players already on the payroll for the year. If the upgrade adds something to your roster while the downgrade doesn't really lose anything you can't replace easily from the players already on the roster, then I can't see it being a lateral move...

We don't know what the pieces are for this rumour except Calderon and Bibby. Pachulia is just speculation, because we need the salaries to match up and he seems to be a great match.

About Calderon .vs. Bibby. Yeah, defensively, it's a wash. But what Calderon provides on the offence can greatly help the Hawks. Calderon is averaging 7.8 assists on the Raptors right now. The Raptors! Who do we have that's even comparable to the Hawks in terms of skill level? Bargs? ...uh... *crickets*

Calderon, as a conventional pass-first point guard, would fit in with your team so well because he'll have so many outlets to pass to that he didn't have in Toronto, while he himself is an offensive threat too (47% FG and almost 45% from the 3). 10+ assist games will be common for him with the Hawks, IMHO.

Zaza isn't needed to make a trade work IF the Hawks are willing to go into luxury tax area. Bibby and Evans (expiring) for Calderon works in the trade checker and saves Toronto a lot of cap space over the life of the deal. It's a big IF, but it does make for simpler deal. Evans has already proven replaceable in free agency.

For what it's worth the ESPN trade machine sees that deal as a +5 wins for the Hawks (not too shabby).

We're in a good position, at the moment, because Bibby's shooting so well from 3. It's TOR that wants salary relief, so there's no reason we should give on the trade and go into the LT. As I pointed out earlier, Bibby and Zaza for Calderon works. If we take Dorsey (a PF we don't need or have minutes for), that's sacrifice enough.