Why the Hinrich Trade is worse than you think

Post #1 » by **Jamaaliver** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:18 pm

Kirk Hinrich is a solid player and a guy I think will help this team. I actually wanted to trade for hi before this season. The reason this trade is so terrible for us, is the cost.
We traded Bibby, Mo and (essentially) two first round draft picks (Jordan Crawford and next years #1 pick) for Kirk Hinrich.

Washington traded for Hinrich less than 9 months ago and paid a grand total of a 2nd round pick. Chicago needed cap space and essentially gave him and away. Last offseason, NJ, Chi, NY and Miami were giving solid players away just to get furhter under the cap. If our front office had been proactive instead of just sitting idly by while all these teams were dumping productive players, maybe we cme away with the same players for alot less.

azuresou1 · Post #2 » by **azuresou1** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:44 pm

That's still not as bad as I think.

We gave up all that **** for a guy who is barely better than Bibby, and swap Bibby out for Crawford and I think we have a good shot at a legitimate player.

Harry10 · Post #3 » by **Harry10** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:47 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:Kirk Hinrich is a solid player and a guy I think will help this team. I actually wanted to trade for hi before this season. The reason this trade is so terrible for us, is the cost.
We traded Bibby, Mo and (essentially) two first round draft picks (Jordan Crawford and next years #1 pick) for Kirk Hinrich.

Washington traded for Hinrich less than 9 months ago and paid a grand total of a 2nd round pick. Chicago needed cap space and essentially gave him and away. Last offseason, NJ, Chi, NY and Miami were giving solid players away just to get furhter under the cap. If our front office had been proactive instead of just sitting idly by while all these teams were dumping productive players, maybe we cme away with the same players for alot less.

immediate cap space is more valuable than you think, which the Hawks did not have at the time.

evildallas · Post #4 » by **evildallas** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:12 am

I thought Washington got a first rounder (Kevin Seraphin) to take him off Chicago's hands. It was the big summer of coveting cap space.

I want to see the product on the floor before I decry this as a bad move. If Hinrich allows us to play straight up D for a change then it might work out for the best. I would have loved to get Sessions for his ability to get to the foul line but I admit he's not a great defender. The larger regret will probably stem from not breathing life and excitement into the front line, but we'll see what happens.

HoopsGuru25 · Post #5 » by **HoopsGuru25** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:16 am

The Hawks probably had no issues with the draft pick being thrown in because they probably planned on selling it anyway.

clancy · Post #6 » by **clancy** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:30 am

In a way this is cool - your collective expectations for Kirk seem so low, you should be pretty pleased with what you get.

He's a big upgrade over Bibby - he's much better at PG, and he's had to play 2/3 of his time at the 2 in Washington with John Wall there.

I do get the concern over the long-term cost, but with Johnson locked up at major dollars you've got to go for it now. Kirk doesn't put the team totally over the top, but I think you'll be happy with both the offense and defense.

HoopsGuru25 · Post #7 » by **HoopsGuru25** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:37 am

I think Hinrich is probably better than Bibby...but to say he's a "big upgrade" is a stretch. We went from having the 28th best starting pg to having the....24th or 25th best starting pg?

clancy · Post #8 » by **clancy** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:20 am

Go ahead and continue to expect very little. All the more room to be impressed. Kirk has outboxscored Bibby this year in spite of spending most of his time at the 2. His numbers are better when playing PG. He has a 16.9 PER split there, which would put him 17th on Hollinger's PG list. And that doesn't even really touch the defensive side.

So no, he's not an All-star, but I think you're seriously underestimating what he can contribute once he gets acclimated to the team. I'm excited to see what he'll be able to do with a greater proportion of PT at his better position.

parson · Post #9 » by **parson** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:42 am

At the beginning of every game, the difference between Hinrich and Bibby's defense is measured in miles ... but the difference in the 4th is measured in light years.

The big question will be offense. Bibby's a better playmaker, no doubt, and shooter, but I'm waiting to see Hinrich get out and RUN. That could be huge for us. If we become a good defensive team that turns rebounds/turnovers into fastbreaks, we could run some teams off the court.

Might as well put a happy face on this'un, guys, cause Hinrich's here for the duration.

reazun · Post #10 » by **reazun** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:11 am

clancy, thanks for making me feel a little better about this trade. I think we overpaid tremendously for such a low calibur player. However, I understand that the position that we were in demanded that we bite the bullet and do something. all in all, im glad we did it. I still think we could have done something better tho. but im glad im not the GM, he is the one who has to make the tough decisions. THis was probably one that was tough for him.

D21 · Post #11 » by **D21** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:36 am

Jamaaliver wrote:...Washington traded for Hinrich less than 9 months ago and paid a grand total of a 2nd round pick...

No, like ED said, WAS got 2010 CHI 1st pick, which turned to be one of the players we were looking at : Seraphin

So with Hinrich for some months, they got Seraphin, Crawford and ATL next 1st pick

johnny878 · Post #12 » by **johnny878** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:32 pm

my only problem with the trade is that he wasnt even one of the top 5 point guards traded at the DEADLINE. this deal has desperation to make a move just for the sake of making of a move written all over it.

i dont know how anyone could be too disapointed in the trade because its not like we gave up anything of real value.

D21 · Post #13 » by **D21** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:51 am

johnny878 wrote:i dont know how anyone could be too disapointed in the trade because its not like we gave up anything of real value.

It's not lossing something of value, it's loosing something that could have value for other trade, like the 1st round pick.
The pick, by itself, doesn't have lots of value, especially if ATL makes the choice, but it could have a value for another team, and it could be the difference between trading Josh for a C, or not, for example.

If we work later on trades, and see a deal was possible if we had that pick... but it won't.

perthwildcat · Post #14 » by **perthwildcat** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:34 am

I think Hinrich is a good addition too... Although we did probably did over pay for him...

I mean the guy started the season playing SF with Arenas and Wall...

Now he'll be playing his true position and shouldn't have to defend 2's and 3's.

Not to mention now he's gonna be going to the playoffs and not having to be the 2nd or 3rd option on offence on a lottery team...

Does anyone expect Hilton to to contribute anything?

Post #15 » by **HMFFL** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:04 am

perthwildcat wrote:I think Hinrich is a good addition too... Although we did probably did over pay for him...

I mean the guy started the season playing SF with Arenas and Wall...

Now he'll be playing his true position and shouldn't have to defend 2's and 3's.

Not to mention now he's gonna be going to the playoffs and not having to be the 2nd or 3rd option on offence on a lottery team...

Does anyone expect Hilton to to contribute anything?

Trading the first round pick just tells me that we had no intentions are using it anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if we had just moved it for future considerations or two second round picks on draft night.

As far as Hilton goes, well, I highly doubt he performs. He can be useful by fouling someone like Dwight Howard and putting a big body on him. He just seems to lack heart and true passion for the game.

HoopsGuru25 · Post #16 » by **HoopsGuru25** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:26 am

clancy wrote:Go ahead and continue to expect very little. All the more room to be impressed. Kirk has outboxscored Bibby this year in spite of spending most of his time at the 2. His numbers are better when playing PG. He has a 16.9 PER split there, which would put him 17th on Hollinger's PG list. And that doesn't even really touch the defensive side.

So no, he's not an All-star, but I think you're seriously underestimating what he can contribute once he gets acclimated to the team. I'm excited to see what he'll be able to do with a greater proportion of PT at his better position.

1. If Hinrich puts up a 16.9 PER then I'll gladly admit that I was wrong about him being a minor upgrade. I hope you're right but I doubt it.

2. Please stop pretending like Hinrich is the same type of player as John Stockton. I live in Chicago and while I'll admit that Hinrich is(was?)a great defender....he was never a true point guard. Aaron Miles was Kansas starting pg during his last 2 years and he's also started a number of games at 2 guard next to Chris Duhon & Derrick Rose. He's a combo guard(which I have no problem with).

clancy · Post #17 » by **clancy** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:59 am

^^^
Where did I say he's anything like John Stockton? In the part where I said he's not an All-star? In the part where I said his numbers are better at the 1 than at the 2? Does believing he's much better than Bibby at this point in time equate to calling him Stockton-esque?

parson · Post #18 » by **parson** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:06 am

Please don't get excited about improved PG play for us, that might be rude or something (jk).

clancy, I hear ya. In my opinion, it's not so much that Hinrich is good as Bibby was just that bad at the end. This is an excellent upgrade.

HoopsGuru25 · Post #19 » by **HoopsGuru25** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:42 am

clancy wrote:^^^
Where did I say he's anything like John Stockton? In the part where I said he's not an All-star? In the part where I said his numbers are better at the 1 than at the 2? Does believing he's much better than Bibby at this point in time equate to calling him Stockton-esque?

I'm talking about Stockton's style of play..or what some call the "true point guard". You're acting as if Washington is the 1st time that Hinrich has been forced to move from his "natural" position when he infact did the same thing in Chicago and in college at Kansas.

clancy · Post #20 » by **clancy** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:06 pm

Sorry if that's how you took it, HoopsGuru. I've followed Kirk's entire career. I just used the most recent stats because they matter most. Had I traced his entire career, I'm sure you would have argued that stats from his Chicago days are too old to matter.

But if it makes you feel better, his PER split at PG has been better in '11, '10 (although just slightly), '08, '07, '06, . In '09 (slightly), '05, and '04, it was better at SG. In most years, particularly lately, he's played better offensively at PG. I'm a fan of his, which I'm sure is apparent, and I am excited to see him play primarily at his better position. I think he's a big upgrade over Bibby's current level of play, both individually and in the effect it will have on the rest of the team.

I have no idea how far the trade will take the team or not take it, but I'd say it certainly improves the odds of going farther in the playoffs. Sure, it's nowhere near the best trade in NBA universe - but I do think it's better for the Hawks than doing nothing. I get where other people disagree because of the pick and Crawford, but I am of the opinion that with JJ under this huge contract you have to go for it now.