Anyone still disagree with me about Bogut?

parson · Post #1 » by **parson** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 2:53 am

I said we should trade for him, even if it costs us Joe and Smoove, even if we had to take on one (or more) of the lousy contracts of Salmons/Maggette/Gooden.

Anyone STILL think we should try to just manage what we have better?

HoopsGuru25 · Post #2 » by **HoopsGuru25** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 2:56 am

Manage what we have? 85 percent of Hawks fans didn't want to bring Joe back on a max contract for a non-contending team in the 1st place. There's no one out there that's going to take his contract unless the Mavs choke again in the playoffs.

geeman · Post #3 » by **geeman** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 3:10 am

Guys, I don't know how much more I can take! I just can't believe we're pay JJ 126 mil. We are screwed!

Post #4 » by **dms269** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 3:19 am

How many games would Bogut play? He has only played all 82 once.

Geaux_Hawks · Post #5 » by **Geaux_Hawks** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 3:23 am

uga_dawgs24 wrote:How many games would Bogut play? He has only played all 82 once.

As long as we make it to the playoffs and he plays,I could care less of how many games he plays.A double-double Center who averages 2.9 BLOCKS is all we need.

azuresou1 · Post #6 » by **azuresou1** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 5:48 am

parson wrote:I said we should trade for him, even if it costs us Joe and Smoove, even if we had to take on one (or more) of the lousy contracts of Salmons/Maggette/Gooden.

Anyone STILL think we should try to just manage what we have better?

You don't get yourself out of a crisis by making panic moves. Your proposed trade is a panic move.

parson · Post #7 » by **parson** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 4:04 pm

azuresou1 wrote:You don't get yourself out of a crisis by making panic moves. Your proposed trade is a panic move.

I agree that I'm overpaying but you have to in order to get a top Center. And Bogut is a top Center. He's hurt but he's good.

Did you see Horford when Zaza took over against Bynum? Horford LOVED working Gasol.

Bogut is a top 5 Center. He and Horford would give us the advantage inside against almost every team ... and no team would dominate us inside.

I'm not one of those who wants to trade Joe at any cost. I know how good he is. I assume that his present problems are health-related and I trust he'll improve. Smoove is a budding star who gets better each year and fills the stat sheet with points, steals, rebounds and a large # of blocks. I know we'd be overpaying. However, if overpaying for a Center is the going rate, then it aint overpaying.

And as for one (or more) of Salmons/Gooden/Maggette: each one has a contract shorter than Joe's and would supply good depth and any 2 of 'em TOGETHER don't add up to Joe's contract.

azuresou1 · Post #8 » by **azuresou1** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 4:43 pm

Bogut has an injury history that is almost Oden-esqe. He also is not really a premier scorer... and I'd be willing to overlook all those things if we weren't taking on the **** sandwich of Salmons/Gooden/Maggette.

Salmons = old, very average SG who is way overpaid.
Maggette = old, ball dominant chucker who makes his team worse, doesn't even PLAY.
Drew Gooden = soft headcase with no BBIQ, doesn't even PLAY anymore.

Seriously, we also have no PG of the future (even though I'm still on the Teague bandwagon), and our roster would be bombed out and depleted outside of a very good starting frontcourt with no legitimate depth, and a starting C who has played a full season all of once in his career.

How would this have been a better move than trading Joe for Terry/Butler, buying out Terry this offseason, and then signing Marc Gasol or some other C?

parson · Post #9 » by **parson** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 5:39 pm

azuresou1 wrote:Bogut has an injury history that is almost Oden-esqe.

Any KNEE problems? Nope, we're talking left arm and ribcage.

He also is not really a premier scorer... and I'd be willing to overlook all those things if we weren't taking on the **** sandwich of Salmons/Gooden/Maggette.

Salmons = old, very average SG who is way overpaid.
Maggette = old, ball dominant chucker who makes his team worse, doesn't even PLAY.
Drew Gooden = soft headcase with no BBIQ, doesn't even PLAY anymore.

Salmons is averaging one point less than Jamal while shooting 39% to Jamal's 41%. Big whoop. Interesting that he's outshooting Jamal from 3 this year, 39% to 35%.
Maggette is outscoring Zaza, Powell, Collins, Wilkins and Thomas COMBINED. And he's shooting 45%.
Gooden is averaging 11 points and 6.5 rebounds/game.

Each player is paid less than Joe. Total for Salmons and Maggette is the same as Joe ... and Gooden is paid $1.5 million more than Zaza. And he doesn't play because he's hurt. I agree that they're lousy starters but they'd look good on our bench. But we probably wouldn't have to deal for all 3 -- I just wanted to show that it's possible to defend taking them, if necessary. Bogut would help us that much.

Seriously, we also have no PG of the future (even though I'm still on the Teague bandwagon), and our roster would be bombed out and depleted outside of a very good starting frontcourt with no legitimate depth,

Remember when mentioned Salmons/Maggette/Gooden? A 2nd team made up of Zaza/Gooden/Maggette/Salmons/Teague is much, much better than what we have now.

and a starting C who has played a full season all of once in his career.

That's the only reason we have a chance to acquire him.

How would this have been a better move than trading Joe for Terry/Butler, buying out Terry this offseason, and then signing Marc Gasol or some other C?

Because you'd be clearing up cap space for the purpose of having ONE CHANCE TO GAMBLE that we can sign Gasol. That's a pipe dream. What if Gasol takes the better deal that only his team can give? What if the new CBA gives MEM the power to hold on to Gasol? Then, you would have gotten rid of talent with nothing to show for it but cap space with no FA prospects. CP? Deron Williams? They're not going to join JUST Horford and Smoove. We'd have to dream that Dwight Howard would feel pity for us.

And name the "some other C" if you can.

parson · Post #10 » by **parson** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 5:47 pm

Y'all know what? I'd be willing to trade for Bogut RIGHT NOW and tank the postseason (which we'd still probably make). We're toast, anyway. Why not inspire some hope in the fans?

We'd be one-and-done this year, yes, but folks would start immediately buying tickets for next year. We could try to re-sign Jamal and field a deeeeep team that played great defense ... with size, speed, interior scoring, superior midrange scoring and good 3-pt. shooting.

azuresou1 · Post #11 » by **azuresou1** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 6:52 pm

Parson, please post the complete supposedly deep roster of our team post-trade, because I'm just seeing a roster that is basically Bucks - Jennings + Horford, which basically is still ****. You know, the Bucks that are worse than us, and who have a league-worst offense.

FA C's
Marc Gasol
Nene (possibly)
Tyson Chandler
Yao (MLE?)
Przybilla
Oden (possibly)
Dalembert

Would I rather have

PG: Kirk Hinrich/Jeff Teague
SG: John Salmons/Jamal Crawford
SF: Corey Maggette/Marvin Williams/Damien Wilkins
PF: Al Horford/Drew Gooden
C: Andrew Bogut/Zaza

or

PG: Kirk Hinrich/Jeff Teague
SG: Jason Terry
SF: Marvin Williams/Josh Smith
PF: Al Horford/Josh Smith
C: Marc Gasol/Zaza
and the cap space to pick up another player, as well as a much more financially reasonable team with an ACTUAL shot at winning a few years down the line? I'd rather have the latter.

parson · Post #12 » by **parson** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 10:13 pm

You listed the rosters pretty well. So your preferred lineup differs from mine in that it has Terry/Smoove/Gasol while mine has Salmons/Jamal (can't afford him in your scenario)/Maggette/Gooden/Bogut. Plus, my roster guarantees Horford will man the 4 spot. In yours, it is a gamble.

You replace Joe with Terry (a major downgrade -- we had him; he hated us) and magically get Gasol. I really don't think Gasol's going to happen.

Bogut is much better defensively -- and, if you can believe the MIl fans, is available for my deal: that we trade Joe/Smoove for Bogut and one of Salmons/Gooden/Maggette.

As for your list, it demonstrates my point as to how hard it will be to acquire a Center through free agency:
Marc Gasol -- can be paid more with MEM ... and who thinks he likes us?
Nene (possibly) -- is not going to be available. And if he is, DEN will trade him first.
Tyson Chandler -- we're going to outbid Cuban?
Yao (MLE?) -- is finished.
Przybilla -- is probably finished. And don't forget, we had him and, given the choice, said he didn't want to play for us.
Oden (possibly) -- POR is as rich as Cuban. If they let him go, it's because he's finished.
Dalembert -- has a terrible BBIQ. The man is not the answer. PHI gave him every chance. At best, he's bench help.

So your list is Gasol, Pryzbilla and Dalembert. One pipe dream and 2 bench players. I'm not making fun of you, after all, you may very well be right and I may be wrong -- I'm trying to prove how borderline IMPOSSIBLE it is to get a Center. That also goes to show how valuable they are. If MIL is willing, I say we need to overpay.

azuresou1 · Post #13 » by **azuresou1** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 11:00 pm

Jason Terry who hates us is still better than John Salmons who is extremely average. And of course Bogut would be available for that package, since their team is pretty much exactly like our team but worse, seeing as how instead of overpaying a single pretty good player they overpaid three pretty average players.

- Marc Gasol - Always a possibility
- Nene - Probably not available, and if he is solely through trade, we could trade Smoove for Nene + a smaller asset
- Tyson Chanlder - If we trade with the Mavs for Terry/Butler, I don't think even Mark Cuban would splurge for Tyson Chandler. Then again, I could be horribly wrong.
- Yao - Probably, but at a MLE when we're under the cap? I'll roll the dice.
- Oden - Portland may let him go because it's not worth it to them. Conversely, if we offer him $18 over 2, that might be enough for him.

That trade with Milwaukee just guarantees that we are screwed for the next 4 years, since IMO it's easier for us to trade away Joe under the pretense that he's a great if overpaid player this offseason or next season than it would be to move 3 overpaid and average parts.

evildallas · Post #14 » by **evildallas** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 11:26 pm

Players may be available for the right package, but that doesn't mean we can put together that package. It's just a sad truth.

CALPURNIA · Post #15 » by **CALPURNIA** » Wed Mar 9, 2011 11:55 pm

Bogut is a great player. He plays defense, he helps in defense, he blocks shots. Offensively, he can pass the ball, shoot only when well positioned, gives good screens for companions. Also he has a tough attitude towards opponents. He is a winner.
But, why Milwaukee would tranfer him?
If the trade is Bogut+Salmons for Smith and who? I would sure do it.
I like Salmons and he would do for the looo of Crawford, as he can score from nearer spots and will leve the creation task to guards.

parson · Post #16 » by **parson** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:32 am

CALPURNIA wrote:But, why Milwaukee would tranfer him?

Exactly. That's how I feel. To me, that's the real response to the question. I was amazed that so many - the majority, really - at the MIL board would accept a deal for Bogut. One of them actually went to the Trade Board to ask others if I was being TOO agreeable. He thought my deal was too good, so good that Hawks management would never take it.

azuresou1 · Post #17 » by **azuresou1** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:55 am

Why would Milwaukee transfer him? Because they overpaid a bunch of average players in a streak season and now they are sub .500, won't make the playoffs, and have the worst offense in the league?

Milwaukee would trade Bogut in seconds if they got a deal as good as you offered.

parson · Post #18 » by **parson** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:42 am

Ask your question in reverse: how good would MIL be if we gave them Horford?

azuresou1 · Post #19 » by **azuresou1** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:29 am

Better, and probably in the playoffs, but still a pretty average team.

Geaux_Hawks · Post #20 » by **Geaux_Hawks** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:49 am

The right package can be assembled but it involves "Mr. Untouchable" and I will take Salmons in a Bogut deal if Ilyasova is in it as well. Maybe I won't give Salmons 8 mill but after his days with Philly the guy almost averages 15 PPG and he can defend(Doesn't Jamal average about the same with average D). Who ever owns the team will just have to be willing to go into the tax for about 2 years especially next year.

My view of potential Centers:

-Marc Gasol is a pipe dream unless winning is on his mind(doubt they can keep ZBO,Battier and Gasol and compete unless less money is taken)
-Nene is only available as a FA due to DEN liking Galo and Wilson Chandler
-Mark Cuban realize the pressure Tyson relieves off Dirk and will open his pockets a bit more if it costs him.(Probably will be more 7 mill a year but 90 mill is nothing to Cuban even if he adds Joe)
-Yao,I throw the MLE and take a gamble.
-I could throw Oden a 2 year 18 mill deal
-Bargnani is a sleeper and cheaper(Asset wise)
-Kaman & Okur could be available for Marvin
-Dalmebert is another MLE since he isn't worth over paying
-Darko could simply just do, what I feel, is all we need for him to do(Block,Rebound,Cash in on Trash)
-Lopez Brothers are options especially Robin