NJ/ATL/CHA/DET

[Prokys Nets]

To Bobcats:
Anthony Morrow
Damion James
Stephen Graham

To Hawks:
Rip Hamilton
Jordan Farmar
`12 Houston 1st rd pick via NJN

To Pistons:
Stephen Jackson
Johan Petro

To Nets:
Joe Johnson

[myrak433]

stop it!!!! stop trying to find ways only to dump Joe, and find a way to put some quality players around him. and find a coach to insert a game plan and an identity.

[azuresou1]

I would do this trade damn near ASAP.

[Ruhiel]

that is diminishing returns for the Hawks if you dump one of the Joe Josh or Hinrich you have to get a PG or Center as well.

And Hamilton is older than Joe with less production on a losing team! Terrible trade, Hawks become Detroit Pistons and bank on a future superstar with the pick while Josh Marvin and Horford age.

EDIT: Marvin stepping into SG role with a superstar PG and adequate center would shift everyone into proper positions for beating teams like Orlando, Celtics, Chicago and LA consistently. The marquee teams..

[azuresou1]

that is diminishing returns for the Hawks if you dump one of the Joe Josh or Hinrich you have to get a PG or Center as well.

And Hamilton is older than Joe with less production on a losing team! Terrible trade, Hawks become Detroit Pistons and bank on a future superstar with the pick while Josh Marvin and Horford age.

EDIT: Marvin stepping into SG role with a superstar PG and adequate center would shift everyone into proper positions for beating teams like Orlando, Celtics, Chicago and LA consistently. The marquee teams..

Rip is paid until 2012/2013. Joe Johnson is paid until 2015/2016. In 2012/2013, Rip will be getting paid close to $7 million less than Joe Johnson. Given that there are almost always teams that are trading for expirings, that's even less time. Jordan Farmar is far from a stud, but he's a serviceable player, and at a flat $4 million/year paid reasonably. He also expires in 2012/2013.

On top of this, we get a pick that will likely be in the 12-18 range.

Our current team is fatally, irrevocably flawed, and we will be where the Wizards were before they realized they were straight ****ed, and are now a gutter team hoping that JaVale McGee and Andray Blatche grow a brain so they can play with John Wall, all while waiting for Shard to come off their books.

The sooner we can dump Joe Johnson, the better. This is a pretty good deal for us, and you guys who think we can build a championship caliber team around a SG who has never been anything better than above-average and is now starting to wear down astounds me.

[Ruhiel]

that is diminishing returns for the Hawks if you dump one of the Joe Josh or Hinrich you have to get a PG or Center as well.

And Hamilton is older than Joe with less production on a losing team! Terrible trade, Hawks become Detroit Pistons and bank on a future superstar with the pick while Josh Marvin and Horford age.

EDIT: Marvin stepping into SG role with a superstar PG and adequate center would shift everyone into proper positions for beating teams like Orlando, Celtics, Chicago and LA consistently. The marquee teams..

Rip is paid until 2012/2013. Joe Johnson is paid until 2015/2016. In 2012/2013, Rip will be getting paid close to $7 million less than Joe Johnson. Given that there are almost always teams that are trading for expirings, that's even less time. Jordan Farmar is far from a stud, but he's a serviceable player, and at a flat $4 million/year paid reasonably. He also expires in 2012/2013.

On top of this, we get a pick that will likely be in the 12-18 range.

Our current team is fatally, irrevocably flawed, and we will be where the Wizards were before they realized they were straight ****ed, and are now a gutter team hoping that JaVale McGee and Andray Blatche grow a brain so they can play with John Wall, all while waiting for Shard to come off their books.

The sooner we can dump Joe Johnson, the better. This is a pretty good deal for us, and you guys who think we can build a championship caliber team around a SG who has never been anything better than above-average and is now starting to wear down astounds me.

Well u've convinced me but I'm not a supporter of Joe. I would've preferred a sign and trade.

+1
I would get this done Asap. I did not take in2 account the length of Hamilton's contract.
The next step would be let JC walk to offer JC money to Dalembert or Chandler. Trading Joe Hawks would have to put Rip in a Ginobili type leadership role even though he isn't as good as Ginobili. Once you commit to that big lineup everyone has to know there roles. Josh gets leakouts ala Melo and posts up. Not to be standing out there isoing like Lebron. Horford gets touches then mcut through and clear out. Maybe run Marvin off of Weakside screens once we have Horf and Dalembert.

Try to use size on boards etc. Teague would have to become the little engine that could at PG. And he could very well do that. It's depressing watching Teague I mean on a simple 3 on 2 fast break he drove middle and when he drew an extra defender he didn't pass and I forget if he got fouled or what. But he needs to learn 2 use his speed 2 draw defenders not to get more FGA 4 himself.

P.S. Now looking back on the Nick Van Axel signing I wonder what the Hawks are coaching him to become. It boggles the mind!

[myrak433]

When L.A. only had Kobe, and was losing did they get rid of Kobe? Miami when they only had Wade? I am not trying to say Joe is as good as anyone of those two, but he is an elite two gaurd that commands a double team every night. what we need to do is get a complete team and/or put another player or two on this team that commands a double team. not get rid of the only player on this team that must be doubled. you people are crazy. is Joe worth is contract? maybe not but none of you guys are paying it so why are you all so upset? the owners offered it and he took it. I would have too.

[Ruhiel]

When L.A. only had Kobe, and was losing did they get rid of Kobe? Miami when they only had Wade? I am not trying to say Joe is as good as anyone of those two, but he is an elite two gaurd that commands a double team every night. what we need to do is get a complete team and/or put another player or two on this team that commands a double team. not get rid of the only player on this team that must be doubled. you people are crazy. is Joe worth is contract? maybe not but none of you guys are paying it so why are you all so upset? the owners offered it and he took it. I would have too.

He does not command a double team every night. That's the problem. And if Horford and Smith were playing PF and SF they would draw double teams posting up. Joe Johnson doesn't draw double teams in the post. If he does draw a double its because of dribble penetration.

Joe Johnson has elite height and size but his overall PER for regular season has never been above 20. His best season was in 08-09.
More importantly his playoff PER drops off to 16 in '08, 13 in '09, and 15 in '10.

And people are upset because his contract stymies the ability to sign quality players at key positions. Kobe is elite, Wade is elite, Rose is elite, Howard is elite etc.
---
Bottom line how the Hawks perform in the playoffs will be an indicator of which way the team performs. I wouldn't be surprised if a Hawks player sits out the playoffs due to a convenient "injury" so management can keep this Hawks core gets another season together and get more postseason $ with no goal to ever win. it's frustrating 4 fans to watch a once promising team be mismanaged like this.

[myrak433]

When L.A. only had Kobe, and was losing did they get rid of Kobe? Miami when they only had Wade? I am not trying to say Joe is as good as anyone of those two, but he is an elite two gaurd that commands a double team every night. what we need to do is get a complete team and/or put another player or two on this team that commands a double team. not get rid of the only player on this team that must be doubled. you people are crazy. is Joe worth is contract? maybe not but none of you guys are paying it so why are you all so upset? the owners offered it and he took it. I would have too.

He does not command a double team every night. That's the problem. And if Horford and Smith were playing PF and SF they would draw double teams posting up. Joe Johnson doesn't draw double teams in the post. If he does draw a double its because of dribble penetration.

Joe Johnson has elite height and size but his overall PER for regular season has never been above 20. His best season was in 08-09.
More importantly his playoff PER drops off to 16 in '08, 13 in '09, and 15 in '10.

And people are upset because his contract stymies the ability to sign quality players at key positions. Kobe is elite, Wade is elite, Rose is elite, Howard is elite etc.---
Bottom line how the Hawks perform in the playoffs will be an indicator of which way the team performs. I wouldn't be surprised if a Hawks player sits out the playoffs due to a convenient "injury" so management can keep this Hawks core gets another season together and get more postseason $ with no goal to ever win. it's frustrating 4 fans to watch a once promising team be mismanaged like this.

Joe is Doubled every night. watch the games and don't just look at the box scores. he is doubled as soon as he gets the ball. I watch every single game the hawks play, everyone.

True if Smith and Horford were ever to go down in the post the would command a double team, but they hardly ever go down there.

Joe's contract isn't stopping the teams ability to sign quality players at key position. JC 9 mil a year, Smith 11 mil a year, Capt kirk 9 mil a year, Horford 5 mil a year, and Marvin almost 7 mil a year. they can get some quality players with that can of money. the problem is the hawks are not good at evaluating talent and really don't know how to put a team together.

It is frustrating to me as well (I am a Hawks fan) at how we continue to lose games that we should win or even if we do play a team that is better than us we still should be pass the point were we get blown out by 30 points. but this isn't Joes fault. it is Sund's and Larry Drew and the owners as well.

[Ruhiel]

True if Smith and Horford were ever to go down in the post the would command a double team, but they hardly ever go down there.

Smith had 33 on Elton Brand last night. Elton is just shy of 6'10, he is short for a PF but is a rugged post defender and Smith still did well against him.

Now imagine if you can Josh Smith having that size advantage everynight. He doesn't have that luxury. If you look at the elite teams they have length that can smother a 6'8 Josh in the post. That is why he stands outside and shoots jump shots. Same goes for Horford having the advantage, he looked good against Brand but undersized players shoot jumpers.
everyone in the league knows the Hawks are lacking a center.

Hawks could have had Dejuan Blair at 6'7 he can score from both F & C position becayse he is a solid 280 and can move players around. He gives up some shots but muscles into better position than Josh and Horf at center.

Hawks need a center point blank. As long as they get a wing defender at the 2 position they can win with Josh and Horf posting up at the 3 & 4.

Joe's contract isn't stopping the teams ability to sign quality players at key position. JC 9 mil a year, Smith 11 mil a year, Capt kirk 9 mil a year, Horford 5 mil a year, and Marvin almost 7 mil a year. they can get some quality players with that can of money. the problem is the hawks are not good at evaluating talent and really don't know how to put a team together.

Hawks have 64 mil committed next year thru 7 players not including JC. If Johnson had $3-4 mil less it would have been better for the team. resigning JC at Marvin money would put Hawks in the luxury.
I agree Hawks are bad at evaluating talent but that could be mitigated by getting a center. They will have to spend JC's money to get that center and lose a 6th man of the year. Hinrich is tradeable and Hawks could easily get a center. But this team is rundown as is and is not going to get far playing that undersized style. And they don't know how to construct a team.

[myrak433]

Smith had 33 on Elton Brand last night. Elton is just shy of 6'10, he is short for a PF but is a rugged post defender and Smith still did well against him.

that is because Smith was playing in the post last night, he doesn't do that on a nightly basis. and I agree with you he is undersize at the four. but I feel they can still get a center and keep Joe, Smith, and Horford. I wish they could trade marvin, but I don't think any one would bite. I would love a marvin for Bargnani type deal. but I do feel they could get a Dalembert or maybe even Kaman. what I think we could do is have a lineup like this
Kirk/Teague
JJ/T-Mac
Smith/Marvin
Horford/Armstrong
Kaman or Dalembert/Zaza

then the Hawks wouldn't be undersize anymore
or even do that trade someone suggested but add more to it with Marvin, Smith, and ZAZA going to Golden State and Beidrins and Monta coming to Atlanta then line up of
Kirk/Teague
Monta/T-Mac
JJ/Marvin
Horford/Armstrong
Beidrins/Amrstrong

with the first line up we would have someone to throw it in low to when JJ is doubled
and with the second one Monta would go crazy once JJ is doubled or if they double Monta JJ would have a field day. plus Beidrins also has a low post game. both are complete teams.

[Ruhiel]

ixnay on the 2nd trade. Biedrins is bad

[azuresou1]

When L.A. only had Kobe, and was losing did they get rid of Kobe? Miami when they only had Wade? I am not trying to say Joe is as good as anyone of those two, but he is an elite two gaurd that commands a double team every night. what we need to do is get a complete team and/or put another player or two on this team that commands a double team. not get rid of the only player on this team that must be doubled. you people are crazy. is Joe worth is contract? maybe not but none of you guys are paying it so why are you all so upset? the owners offered it and he took it. I would have too.

Are you seriously comparing Joe Johnson to Kobe ****ing Bryant and Dwyane Wade? The 2nd and probably 4th best SG in league history? Joe Johnson's much closer to a guy like Michael Redd or Allan Houston or Jalen Rose than he is to Dwyane Wade. And even then, both of those guys needed premier Cs to win the ring, as well as a solid team around them.

Why am I upset because Joe is getting paid his contract? BECAUSE IT IS CRIPPLING THIS TEAM. Is it that hard of a concept to grasp that when you are paying a player who deserves something like 3/$40 a 6/$124, that you kill your room for improvement?

[myrak433]

When L.A. only had Kobe, and was losing did they get rid of Kobe? Miami when they only had Wade? I am not trying to say Joe is as good as anyone of those two, but he is an elite two gaurd that commands a double team every night. what we need to do is get a complete team and/or put another player or two on this team that commands a double team. not get rid of the only player on this team that must be doubled. you people are crazy. is Joe worth is contract? maybe not but none of you guys are paying it so why are you all so upset? the owners offered it and he took it. I would have too.

Are you seriously comparing Joe Johnson to Kobe ****ing Bryant and Dwyane Wade? The 2nd and probably 4th best SG in league history? Joe Johnson's much closer to a guy like Michael Redd or Allan Houston or Jalen Rose than he is to Dwyane Wade. And even then, both of those guys needed premier Cs to win the ring, as well as a solid team around them.

Why am I upset because Joe is getting paid his contract? BECAUSE IT IS CRIPPLING THIS TEAM. Is it that hard of a concept to grasp that when you are paying a player who deserves something like 3/$40 a 6/$124, that you kill your room for improvement?

I said that Joe isn't as good as Wade or Kobe, but you are further proving my point. when Wade and Kobe didn't have any help they team sucked as well.... get Joe some freaking help is all I am saying. and Kobe makes more than JJ. Wade about the same as Joe his last contract. the only reason Joe is the highest paid player now is because his contract is longer than Kobe's and wade just took a discont to get bosh and lebron. do you think he would have taken a discont to play with Josh and Horford or Jamal Crawford???????? why should joe??????? All I am saying is get Joe some help and then judge him.

[HoopsGuru25]

Horford and Smith are far better teammates that what Wade played with in 2008-2010 and what Kobe played with 2005-2007. Infact both of them are better than Joe himself when it comes to PER despite having lower usage rates.

As for the Kobe and Wade comparisons....there are 2 huge differences. The 1st one is that both are far better than Joe for obvious reasons. The 2nd is that there was DEFINITELY collusion involved in Miami improving to the point where they are now. Maybe the Lakers just happened to luck out in one of the most lopsided trades of al time-but it wouldn't surprise me if someone in a position of power(other than Chris Wallace or Mitch Kupchack)was pushing for Memphis to accept the Lakers offer 3 weeks before the trade deadline.

[myrak433]

Horford and Smith are far better teammates that what Wade played with in 2008-2010 and what Kobe played with 2005-2007. Infact both of them are better than Joe himself when it comes to PER despite having lower usage rates.

As for the Kobe and Wade comparisons....there are 2 huge differences. The 1st one is that both are far better than Joe for obvious reasons. The 2nd is that there was DEFINITELY collusion involved in Miami improving to the point where they are now. Maybe the Lakers just happened to luck out in one of the most lopsided trades of al time-but it wouldn't surprise me if someone in a position of power(other than Chris Wallace or Mitch Kupchack)was pushing for Memphis to accept the Lakers offer 3 weeks before the trade deadline.

Kobe had Lamar Odom and Andrew Bynum in 2005-07. and I would take both over Horford and Smith.
and Wade Had Shaq and Haslem I would have taken that over Horford and Smith as well back in 2005. And as far as the collusion is concerned.... I am not saying we could ever get Lebron and Bosh to join JJ, but we could get a more balanced team with players with a defined roll with a legit Center to help JJ out. I.E. Kaman maybe Monta Ellis. to tell you the truth if we only added Kaman and kept JC we would be better now. Or tade Horford or Smith plus picks for Bogut. you can't tell me that Kirk, JJ, Marvin, Horford, Bogut wouldn't be better than what we have now or Kirk,JJ,Smith,Chris Wilcox, Bogut with Chuck Hayes, T-mac, and Jason Kapono and Shane Battier coming off the bench. all these players are unrestricted free agents and I feel could be had cheap with the chance to have a big roll on a play off team.

[Geaux_Hawks]

Will people please stop using PER as a way to compare players. Marvin has a 13.29 PER and scores 10/5 while Beasley has a 15.39 PER and scores 19/5.5. You mean to tell me if Marvin scores 9 more points it will make him the same as Beasley??

And for some one to say Wade is a top 5 SG historically, is idiotic..He would be lucky to be in the top 20-30. Wade might be just a tad bit better than JJ,but only off his ability to make crazy shots.Wade had a still dominate Shaq, and good supporting cast of guys that all did something good. Take those guys away from his championship team and Wade is in the same boat as Joe.

Myrak you think like me mate, but Dally won't come to ATL becuz we don't have the money and he says he likes SACTO, and only will leave for something better financially and winning. I like Bargs and feel it wouldn't take much with Marvin centering the deal. Same for Kaman. So far the only thing I see Smith for is if we get Monta Ellis and play him at PG especially if we can get Dorell Wright. Hell it would be even better if we can get Beans in the deal.

[HoopsGuru25]

Kobe had Lamar Odom and Andrew Bynum in 2005-07. and I would take both over Horford and Smith.

Please go back and look at the numbers from 2005-2007(especially Bynum) and go back and say this.

Wade Had Shaq and Haslem I would have taken that over Horford and Smith as well back in 2005.

This is a pretty terrible point considering that you argued that the Heat didn't trade Wade when the team was down...Miami had one of the best records in the entire league in 2005. The only comparison to make would be the 2008-2010 Heat. BTW-Horford was better than Haslem was when he was 21...let alone in 2011.

Will people please stop using PER as a way to compare players. Marvin has a 13.29 PER and scores 10/5 while Beasley has a 15.39 PER and scores 19/5.5. You mean to tell me if Marvin scores 9 more points it will make him the same as Beasley??

Saying stop using PER as a way to compare players is like saying that you shouldn't use stats period. It has it's flaws(mainly that it overrates high usage players in slow systems ala Joe)..but it's EASILY the best way to compare players from a production stand point.

[HoopsGuru25]

Also your premise is terrible solely because the amount of wins don't really matter to the owners when you have a player like Kobe who packs arenas in every city he plays in. No one is going to buy a ticket to watch Joe Johnson in person.

[azuresou1]

XFD at Wade being lucky to be in the Top 20-30 SGs. Are you serious?