Revisiting Joe Johnson to Dallas

[azuresou1]

Here are the facts:

- Dallas lost today because Jason Terry and JJ Barea were complete garbage.
- Dallas' window dies very soon, as Dirk probably won't be able to contribute at a high level in a few years.
- Mark Cuban is willing to spend.
- Dallas needs a secondary scorer.
- Dallas has two starting-caliber centers.

I think if we offered Joe Johnson for Jason Terry, Brendan Haywood, S&T Corey Brewer, that addresses both team's needs. Yes, Terry left on bad blood, but that was years ago.

ATL:
Jeff Teague/Kirk Hinrich
Jason Terry/Corey Brewer
Josh Smith/Marvin Williams/Pape Sy
Al Horford/Josh Smith/Magnum Rolle
Brendan Haywood/Al Horford/Zaza Pachulia

Dallas:
Jason Kidd/Roddy Beaubois/JJ Barea
Joe Johnson/Deshawn Stevenson
Shawn Marion/Peja Stojakovic
Dirk Nowitzki/whoever
Tyson Chandler/Ian Mahinmi

After this upcoming season, Hinrich and Terry expire, leaving us with $49MM committed, $52MM if we sign Brewer for 2 years. Assuming a similar cap to the one currently in place, we can then try to move either Marvin or Haywood for an expiring, and gun for Dwight.

Thoughts?

[Ruhiel]

I think we give up something defensively and offensively as Joe is a 6'8 Jason Terry.
There were about 5 guards more efficient than Joe this season and Jason Terry was not one of them.
I like Brewer at the 2 I think he can defend* and attack Wade.

There is a significant drop off at post scoring at the small forward. Marvin Williams really puts pressure on us.

Power forwards want Magnum Rolle off the bench his man to man defense is nonexistent.

For every 36 minutes Brendan Haywood averages 0.2 more points & 0.5 rebounds more than Thabeet's first year with Memphis.
Joe still has premier abilities at a position where Eastern conference playoff teams are shallow. Trading Horford's 15 and 9 down low and replacing it with 4 is more feasible than replacing what Joe brings to the table.
I don't feel comfortable with Al and Josh as the two team leaders. They both want to dribble in transition, attack the rim and post up weak defenders at their "normal" positions.
Smith is harder to stop then Horford and drafting Leslie and Motiejunas along with Hill and Thabeet (who will always have value, see Joel Anthony, Kendrick Perkins) will allow us to divest our interests at multiple positions.

Although I like Brewer and Haywood's length his athleticsm and average mobility and ability to be blocked in the paint are a negative. Also he saps the offense whereas we need defenders who initiate it.

Haywood/Terry/Brewer/Rolle/Sy package are not as attractive as a

Leslie*/Thabeet*/Hill/Motiejunas* package.

*having most trade value amongst playoff teams

[Ruhiel]

lol right on cue
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HxPhX_4C98[/youtube]
Hill is a good 4 but i'd love to go fast with Smith at the 3 Motiejunas at the 4 and Hill at the 5 as well.

Hopefully Marvin can be amnestied and we pursue Tayshaun Prince for $3 mil for 3 years at most.
A vet who can come in fresh and score 7 ppg in 12-14 minutes Smith is out.
Prince can see who we're matching up against and would welcome signing here post-trade and amnesty.

[azuresou1]

I don't give a **** about a drop-off next season. It's worth it if we had a semi-decent chance at Dwight.

Please don't hijack my topic with that same trade you've pushed in two separate topics.

[td00]

Me thinking about the short term issues of the Hawks, I think if you give up Joe, you have to get something valuable in return. We know Drew doesn't like young point guards; its obvious because he finds little time for Jeff Teague. Its apparent that the Hawks have reached a peak with their current captains leading the way. Saying that, the captain with the least return this year would be Al.
Now since they have a Marion and Brendan Haywood set long term, I would shoot for Tyson Chandler even though we know that he is the interior presence for that team. IMO, Haywood is a much higher risk to bring in. I can't fathom him even finishing out that contract through 2015.
So if you send Joe, you have to get value in return. Draft picks mean little, but a 2012 pick might be worthy of adding to a transaction.
Truthfully, the only pieces I like on the Dallas roster that would entice me to push Joe or Josh out the door are Beaubois, Kidd, Stevenson, Brewer & Chandler and possibly Caron Butler to become our missing scorer once Joe leaves.
Some combination there would make sense to me since we need bench help and have to have defense if Joe or Josh leave.
Bring Dwayne Casey with them if you have the slot available. The reason I mention Kidd is he always somehow makes teams better as a whole. He has a knack for moving the ball around and you can't argue with his 3 pt success.
I know it would probably be hardest to pull Beaubois, but I like his future. Dallas losing 1 of their 3 PGs are of little significance to them. They either go with Kidd/Barea, or Beaubois/Barea.
I think they have to move one of the 2 to get anything significant in return.
So saying all that, let's go with this proposal:

Joe
Butler / Kidd / 2012 #1 draft pick.

I don't see Butler getting a raise on this past year's salary. I see him the same I see for Jamal Crawford...in questionable territory.

Then we will see if Dallas thinks Beaubois is ready to take over. We pick up 2 starters knowing Drew will overlook Teague once again:

Al/Josh/Butler/Kidd/Hindrich

[bsanders]

Me thinking about the short term issues of the Hawks, I think if you give up Joe, you have to get something valuable in return. We know Drew doesn't like young point guards; its obvious because he finds little time for Jeff Teague. Its apparent that the Hawks have reached a peak with their current captains leading the way. Saying that, the captain with the least return this year would be Al.
Now since they have a Marion and Brendan Haywood set long term, I would shoot for Tyson Chandler even though we know that he is the interior presence for that team. IMO, Haywood is a much higher risk to bring in. I can't fathom him even finishing out that contract through 2015.
So if you send Joe, you have to get value in return. Draft picks mean little, but a 2012 pick might be worthy of adding to a transaction.
Truthfully, the only pieces I like on the Dallas roster that would entice me to push Joe or Josh out the door are Beaubois, Kidd, Stevenson, Brewer & Chandler and possibly Caron Butler to become our missing scorer once Joe leaves.
Some combination there would make sense to me since we need bench help and have to have defense if Joe or Josh leave.
Bring Dwayne Casey with them if you have the slot available. The reason I mention Kidd is he always somehow makes teams better as a whole. He has a knack for moving the ball around and you can't argue with his 3 pt success.
I know it would probably be hardest to pull Beaubois, but I like his future. Dallas losing 1 of their 3 PGs are of little significance to them. They either go with Kidd/Barea, or Beaubois/Barea.
I think they have to move one of the 2 to get anything significant in return.
So saying all that, let's go with this proposal:

Joe
Butler / Kidd / 2012 #1 draft pick.

I don't see Butler getting a raise on this past year's salary. I see him the same I see for Jamal Crawford...in questionable territory.

Then we will see if Dallas thinks Beaubois is ready to take over. We pick up 2 starters knowing Drew will overlook Teague once again:

Al/Josh/Butler/Kidd/Hindrich

i could careless about the short term. Hawks can pull a Chicago and go for 30 wins next season and then end up drafting a guy like Derrick Rose and still have Josh and Horford in their prime.

[myrak433]

I don't give a **** about a drop-off next season. It's worth it if we had a semi-decent chance at Dwight.

Please don't hijack my topic with that same trade you've pushed in two separate topics.

we won't have a chance in Hell at Dwight. he is about to sign an extension. here is link.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/28076853/detail.html


once Howard signs this he will be a Orlando Magic until 2014/2015 season. that means we wouldn't be able to get him until 2015. is it worth getting rid of our best player for this garbage you are talking about to go after someone four years from now?

we would suck so bad with this trade that no one would want to sign here as a free agent once agian.

I am so glad that azuresou1 is not our GM.

you are so obsessed with how much money JJ makes that you would be will to move him for anything. that is absolutely stupid.

I wish you would stop posting this JJ trades.

try posting trades on how to get JJ some help.

[myrak433]

Me thinking about the short term issues of the Hawks, I think if you give up Joe, you have to get something valuable in return. We know Drew doesn't like young point guards; its obvious because he finds little time for Jeff Teague. Its apparent that the Hawks have reached a peak with their current captains leading the way. Saying that, the captain with the least return this year would be Al.
Now since they have a Marion and Brendan Haywood set long term, I would shoot for Tyson Chandler even though we know that he is the interior presence for that team. IMO, Haywood is a much higher risk to bring in. I can't fathom him even finishing out that contract through 2015.
So if you send Joe, you have to get value in return. Draft picks mean little, but a 2012 pick might be worthy of adding to a transaction.
Truthfully, the only pieces I like on the Dallas roster that would entice me to push Joe or Josh out the door are Beaubois, Kidd, Stevenson, Brewer & Chandler and possibly Caron Butler to become our missing scorer once Joe leaves.
Some combination there would make sense to me since we need bench help and have to have defense if Joe or Josh leave.
Bring Dwayne Casey with them if you have the slot available. The reason I mention Kidd is he always somehow makes teams better as a whole. He has a knack for moving the ball around and you can't argue with his 3 pt success.
I know it would probably be hardest to pull Beaubois, but I like his future. Dallas losing 1 of their 3 PGs are of little significance to them. They either go with Kidd/Barea, or Beaubois/Barea.
I think they have to move one of the 2 to get anything significant in return.
So saying all that, let's go with this proposal:

Joe
Butler / Kidd / 2012 #1 draft pick.

I don't see Butler getting a raise on this past year's salary. I see him the same I see for Jamal Crawford...in questionable territory.

Then we will see if Dallas thinks Beaubois is ready to take over. We pick up 2 starters knowing Drew will overlook Teague once again:

Al/Josh/Butler/Kidd/Hindrich

i could careless about the short term. Hawks can pull a Chicago and go for 30 wins next season and then end up drafting a guy like Derrick Rose and still have Josh and Horford in their prime.

fat chance of that happening. the hawks don't know how to draft. I wouldn't want to put my eggs in the draft basket with these hawks FO.
I would rather them to get free agents to make a run. not move our good players and hope we get a gem in the draft......... what if we draft more Marvin Williams, Ace Law, Shelden Williams? do you really want to trust these guys to make a good pick?

no I don't want to hope this team draft a super star type player. I feel we have a better shot at getting proven players with the guys running the show in Atlanta

[azuresou1]

That site is the only place that mentions this extension - you would have thought that ESPN would have reported it by now if it had any legs.

Yeah, it's a good thing I'm not GM, our starting lineup would have been for the past two years Jason Kidd, Ray Allen, Josh Smith, Al Horford, Kendrick Perkins.

You seem preoccupied with having a .500 team instead of actually winning, so I really don't know what to say to you anymore. Yes, money matters. There is an opportunity cost for having Joe Johnson on our roster - that opportunity cost is the chance of being an actual contender for the next 7 years (Johnson's contract and then some). Look at Milwaukee, Indiana, and Washington for what happens when you commit to a mediocre team with lots of money.

[bsanders]

Me thinking about the short term issues of the Hawks, I think if you give up Joe, you have to get something valuable in return. We know Drew doesn't like young point guards; its obvious because he finds little time for Jeff Teague. Its apparent that the Hawks have reached a peak with their current captains leading the way. Saying that, the captain with the least return this year would be Al.
Now since they have a Marion and Brendan Haywood set long term, I would shoot for Tyson Chandler even though we know that he is the interior presence for that team. IMO, Haywood is a much higher risk to bring in. I can't fathom him even finishing out that contract through 2015.
So if you send Joe, you have to get value in return. Draft picks mean little, but a 2012 pick might be worthy of adding to a transaction.
Truthfully, the only pieces I like on the Dallas roster that would entice me to push Joe or Josh out the door are Beaubois, Kidd, Stevenson, Brewer & Chandler and possibly Caron Butler to become our missing scorer once Joe leaves.
Some combination there would make sense to me since we need bench help and have to have defense if Joe or Josh leave.
Bring Dwayne Casey with them if you have the slot available. The reason I mention Kidd is he always somehow makes teams better as a whole. He has a knack for moving the ball around and you can't argue with his 3 pt success.
I know it would probably be hardest to pull Beaubois, but I like his future. Dallas losing 1 of their 3 PGs are of little significance to them. They either go with Kidd/Barea, or Beaubois/Barea.
I think they have to move one of the 2 to get anything significant in return.
So saying all that, let's go with this proposal:

Joe
Butler / Kidd / 2012 #1 draft pick.

I don't see Butler getting a raise on this past year's salary. I see him the same I see for Jamal Crawford...in questionable territory.

Then we will see if Dallas thinks Beaubois is ready to take over. We pick up 2 starters knowing Drew will overlook Teague once again:

Al/Josh/Butler/Kidd/Hindrich

i could careless about the short term. Hawks can pull a Chicago and go for 30 wins next season and then end up drafting a guy like Derrick Rose and still have Josh and Horford in their prime.

fat chance of that happening. the hawks don't know how to draft. I wouldn't want to put my eggs in the draft basket with these hawks FO.
I would rather them to get free agents to make a run. not move our good players and hope we get a gem in the draft......... what if we draft more Marvin Williams, Ace Law, Shelden Williams? do you really want to trust these guys to make a good pick?

no I don't want to hope this team draft a super star type player. I feel we have a better shot at getting proven players with the guys running the show in Atlanta

Hawks can't sign any free agents with Joe's contract

Bulls can't draft either, they drafted, Curry, Chandler, Fizer, Jay Williams, Ben Gordon, Tyrus Thomas, etc..... but they still got Rose

[parson]

azuresou1,

You realize that the deal would work without Brewer? We'd also go into the LT by whatever amount we get Brewer for.

I like (looooove, actually) the idea of getting Howard, but our salary total (in 2012-13) would be $50,168,327 with Haywood instead of Joe - and I'm just counting the commitments we've made to 6 players. If we add the cap holds, the total rises to I-don't-know-where. Even if the salary cap remains where it is ($58 million+), it's going to be hard to be able to afford DH.

[parson]

Oh, and on your depth chart, Pop Sy is definitely not a forward. He's a guard -- possibly a backup PG.

[bsanders]

Joe and Zaza for Terry and Haywood would work in that it allows the Hawks to sign Dwight and still have enough to resign Crawford.

at worst case, if Dwight doesn't sign, that still leaves the line up of:

Haywood/Horford/Smoove/Crawford/Teague which is still equal to Al/Smith/Marvin/Joe/JT in terms of production and playoff performance and result (second round exit)

[Bucked19]

Joe and Zaza for Terry and Haywood would work in that it allows the Hawks to sign Dwight and still have enough to resign Crawford.

at worst case, if Dwight doesn't sign, that still leaves the line up of:

Haywood/Horford/Smoove/Crawford/Teague which is still equal to Al/Smith/Marvin/Joe/JT in terms of production and playoff performance and result (second round exit)

Crawford and Terry play terrible defense,plus Marvin still sucks

[Geaux_Hawks]

I think nobody reads that Dwight says time after time, that he wants to stay in Orlando, making that pipedream closed..

[azuresou1]

azuresou1,

You realize that the deal would work without Brewer? We'd also go into the LT by whatever amount we get Brewer for.

I like (looooove, actually) the idea of getting Howard, but our salary total (in 2012-13) would be $50,168,327 with Haywood instead of Joe - and I'm just counting the commitments we've made to 6 players. If we add the cap holds, the total rises to I-don't-know-where. Even if the salary cap remains where it is ($58 million+), it's going to be hard to be able to afford DH.

I initially added in Zaza, but forgot to strip out Brewer.

I think we could get an expiring or TPE for Marvin - a rebuilding team could likely afford to take him on and roll the dice. This lowers our cap to just about being able to afford Dwight.

[myrak433]

That site is the only place that mentions this extension - you would have thought that ESPN would have reported it by now if it had any legs.

Yeah, it's a good thing I'm not GM, our starting lineup would have been for the past two years Jason Kidd, Ray Allen, Josh Smith, Al Horford, Kendrick Perkins.

You seem preoccupied with having a .500 team instead of actually winning, so I really don't know what to say to you anymore. Yes, money matters. There is an opportunity cost for having Joe Johnson on our roster - that opportunity cost is the chance of being an actual contender for the next 7 years (Johnson's contract and then some). Look at Milwaukee, Indiana, and Washington for what happens when you commit to a mediocre team with lots of money.

is this better

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CZ67kBOIyA[/youtube]

this was said May 30 2011


straight from the horses mouth.

[azuresou1]

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumo ... -cleveland

What Dwight says will mean something when that extension is signed.

[myrak433]

azuresou1
wrote

Yeah, it's a good thing I'm not GM, our starting lineup would have been for the past two years Jason Kidd, Ray Allen, Josh Smith, Al Horford, Kendrick Perkins.

why in the world would Jason Kidd or Ray Allen would have came to Atlanta over the current teams they are on? and if we did not have JJ who would we have traded for Perkins? and still had Horford and Smith? besides that team isn't a playoff team any way. which one of those players would draw a double team and still produce? not Kidd. ray allen is a catch and shoot guy. Kendrick Perkins? LOL!!
Josh Smith, Maybe but he isn't good enough to carry a team. Horford? he cant creat for him self so I doubt he would be able to creat for others.

that team, while it has some nice complementary pieces, doesn't have a one player as good as JJ. now Jason Kidd and Ray Allen certainly were as good as or better than JJ in their prime. the thing is they are well pass their prime.

[azuresou1]

- I would have offered Jason Kidd a contract instead of Mike Bibby. He would have had a decent shot to come, since at that point we were an improving team that just threatened the Celtics.
- I would have offered Joe Johnson for Ray Allen and Kendrick Perkins. Celtics probably would have accepted because they were doing terrible that season and most didn't think they'd make it through the East, much less take the Lakers to 7.

LOL at that team not being a playoff team.

Who drew doubles on Detroit? No one - but everyone knew their role and was unselfish and played like a team.