RealGM

This should be our lineup going into this year.

PG Teague/Mike Bibby/Demetri McCamey
SG Joe/Jordan/Pape
SF Josh Smith/Marvin Williams/Chris Singleton
PF Al/Magnum Rolle/Free Agent
C Jason Collins/Zaza/Keith Benson

Instead we have

PG Teague/Kirk Hinrich/Demetri McCamey
SG Joe/David Lighty/Pape
SF Josh Smith/Marvin Williams/Damien
PF Al/Keith Benson/Magnum Rolle
C Jason Collins/Zaza/ Keith Benson

Chris Singleton, Jordan, and Teague could have been 3 nice, cheap young pieces when Bibby's contract runs out this year.

Instead we will have but one promising young piece in Teague when Hinrich's contract runs out this year.

Hinrich will not be resigned just like Jamal will not be resigned and we will not make it to the ECFinals with this weak bench with Hinrich.

We killed our future and did not make our present any better by picking up Hinrich on top of that Rick Sund says he is not sure the Hawks will add a Center expected to start full time but he wants to resign Jason Collins.

Hawks general manager Rick Sund said he hopes to re-sign Collins, who will be a free agent, but he's not sure if the Hawks would add a player expected to start full time.

“When all is said and done we have got to have enough people at the center position who can play a certain style,” he said.

I don't get it, you can give away 2 1st round picks and take on more salary for Kirk Hinrich which we did not need at all IMO, and definitely we did not need him as much as we need a starting Center, but you can't go out and get what we really need which is a starting level Center so you can play arguably your best young player at his correct position and prolong his career, while possibly making your team better.

Rick Sund absolutely needs to go. I hope that is the first move the new majority owner makes.

Hinrich was better than Bibby, flat out. You can't look back and say it was a bad deal and completely ignore the present. Tegaue had been underwhelming until the Chicago series. By bringing in Hinrich you were bringing in Hinrich, a very good defensive guard. Remember who really led us to victory in the Orlando series? It wasn't Tegaue that shut down Jameer.

Jordan Crawford is a chucker. Yes he averaged like 16 ppg for Washington, but take a look at his percentages. His trade value is just not there. He is basically Jamal Crawford, and look at what Jamal has been traded for in the past....Al Harrington....Acie Law and Speedy Claxton.

Starting caliber centers are not cheap. If you have one, you aren't trading them. I doubt offering Jordan Crawford, a first, and the 2 year contract of Mike Bibby would have netted us anyone decent.

uga_dawgs24 wrote:Hinrich was better than Bibby, flat out. You can't look back and say it was a bad deal and completely ignore the present. Tegaue had been underwhelming until the Chicago series. By bringing in Hinrich you were bringing in Hinrich, a very good defensive guard. Remember who really led us to victory in the Orlando series? It wasn't Tegaue that shut down Jameer.

Jordan Crawford is a chucker. Yes he averaged like 16 ppg for Washington, but take a look at his percentages. His trade value is just not there. He is basically Jamal Crawford, and look at what Jamal has been traded for in the past....Al Harrington....Acie Law and Speedy Claxton.

Starting caliber centers are not cheap. If you have one, you aren't trading them. I doubt offering Jordan Crawford, a first, and the 2 year contract of Mike Bibby would have netted us anyone decent.

It was more to the deal than Hinrich for Bibby that's the major point and where did Hinrich get us that Bibby had not helped us get to twice in a row?


Next, I am not ignoring the present that's why I state that we are left with Hinrich and in the same position before Hinrich when we should have Jordan and Chris Singleton or whoever we would have picked with #18, Kenneth Faried, the rebounder that we need.

Moving on, Teague had not gotten minutes on the regular, that game he had against Portland was better than anything Hinrich had all regular season so if Teague was underwhelming Hinrich was horrifying. Hinrich was given the job because of his pay rate. They made up there minds before he ever stepped foot in town that he was the starter. The team had a worse record with him than without. Also, Hinrich played big minutes on a laughing stock team that is in the record books for losing so many road games in a row. Hinrich was not making a bit of difference in the win column with the Wizards.

Jameer Nelson averaged 17 pts in last years series to 13 pts in this years series. That's not that big of a difference that series was won by Otis Smith trading away Gortat, Vince Carter, and Rashard Lewis whom all hurt us the year before during that series. Furthermore, Larry Drew choosing to play Dwight straight up and inserting Jason Collins had just as much to do with the win or even more than Kirk.

Jordan Crawford is no worse than Jamal nor Flip whom both had helped us get to the same place Kirk Hinrich helped us get to, the 2nd round, plus Jordan comes cheaper than any of them.

Yes starting caliber centers are not cheap but you should not be giving away multiple cheap 1st round picks unless you already have great depth or you are getting a big time player in return and Kirk has never been the answer for anyone. Chicago gave him away, then Washington turned right back around and traded him. He is not far from becoming what you wanna claim Jamal is.

Jordan Crawford is a chucker.Yes he averaged like 16 ppg for Washington, but take a look at his percentages.

Yes he is. His efficiency is horrible and he looking at box scores he used as high a USG% than Joe while on the floor.
He had a negative Wins Share/48.

His style of play and unwillingness to trust/share/create with teammates even on WAS was sad. Reminded me of Steve Francis.
He has promise to get his true shooting % up to over 50% but he is way behind contributing and got traded for it.

Which is why I'm worried about 'Kito' being in the rotation.

His trade value is just not there. He is basically Jamal Crawford, and look at what Jamal has been traded for in the past....Al Harrington....Acie Law and Speedy Claxton.

I see the comparison and Jamal put up similar #s as a rookie but what's key is USG% Jamal was actually slower and shyer with the ball than Jordan was and they played similar minutes.

Jordan is faster and able to get any shot he wants but he couldn't hit and was 11% more likely than Jamal to turn it over or shoot it. He eats possessions.
Jamal as a rookie was bad but deferred to teammates.

Yet and all I believe he had trade value because he got 33 minutes per game in 26 games upon trade.
Wizards are bad but no one else inquired??
.............

@superiorblogman
Superiorblogman, Going by WS/48 Jamal Crawford took 3 years to reach this efficiency level. It helps that he used his teammates.

As a matter of fact Jamal was groomed as a point guard I believe because of the SG-defense issue.

Jamal Crawford rookie year: 13 shots per 48 minutes.

Jordan Crawford rookie year: 24 shots per 48 minutes. 1 shot every 2 minutes at 38% shooting


Jamal college SG played PG. Teague college SG groomed into PG.

Jordan Crawford college SG defending 2s and shooting 1 shot every other minute.
Dreaded P word though. Potential.

With Teague on this team THE PICK DIDNT MAKE SENSE RICK SUND. How long till we see Jordan reign in his shots if he's playing for the Wizards and their most efficient players last year were
Javale McGee (0.115) and Trevor Booker (0.119) and 300 minutes of Othyus Jeffers (0.104)?

Two 23 yo big men + Andray Blatche + 32yo Rashard Lewis... Jordan is far-far away from efficiency land. He's in Washington.

He is an inefficient combo guard who struggles with defense and we had to develop Teague and Jamal had a history of inefficiency. And lo and behold Jamal's efficiency fell off a roof this season and his defense non-existent.

THE PICK DIDNT MAKE SENSE RICK SUND.

Superiorblogman wrote:

uga_dawgs24 wrote:Hinrich was better than Bibby, flat out. You can't look back and say it was a bad deal and completely ignore the present. Tegaue had been underwhelming until the Chicago series. By bringing in Hinrich you were bringing in Hinrich, a very good defensive guard. Remember who really led us to victory in the Orlando series? It wasn't Tegaue that shut down Jameer.

Jordan Crawford is a chucker. Yes he averaged like 16 ppg for Washington, but take a look at his percentages. His trade value is just not there. He is basically Jamal Crawford, and look at what Jamal has been traded for in the past....Al Harrington....Acie Law and Speedy Claxton.

Starting caliber centers are not cheap. If you have one, you aren't trading them. I doubt offering Jordan Crawford, a first, and the 2 year contract of Mike Bibby would have netted us anyone decent.

It was more to the deal than Hinrich for Bibby that's the major point and where did Hinrich get us that Bibby had not helped us get to twice in a row?


Next, I am not ignoring the present that's why I state that we are left with Hinrich and in the same position before Hinrich when we should have Jordan and Chris Singleton or whoever we would have picked with #18, Kenneth Faried, the rebounder that we need.

Moving on, Teague had not gotten minutes on the regular, that game he had against Portland was better than anything Hinrich had all regular season so if Teague was underwhelming Hinrich was horrifying. Hinrich was given the job because of his pay rate. They made up there minds before he ever stepped foot in town that he was the starter. The team had a worse record with him than without. Also, Hinrich played big minutes on a laughing stock team that is in the record books for losing so many road games in a row. Hinrich was not making a bit of difference in the win column with the Wizards.

Jameer Nelson averaged 17 pts in last years series to 13 pts in this years series. That's not that big of a difference that series was won by Otis Smith trading away Gortat, Vince Carter, and Rashard Lewis whom all hurt us the year before during that series. Furthermore, Larry Drew choosing to play Dwight straight up and inserting Jason Collins had just as much to do with the win or even more than Kirk.

Jordan Crawford is no worse than Jamal nor Flip whom both had helped us get to the same place Kirk Hinrich helped us get to, the 2nd round, plus Jordan comes cheaper than any of them.

Yes starting caliber centers are not cheap but you should not be giving away multiple cheap 1st round picks unless you already have great depth or you are getting a big time player in return and Kirk has never been the answer for anyone. Chicago gave him away, then Washington turned right back around and traded him. He is not far from becoming what you wanna claim Jamal is.

Hinrich got us past Orlando, something Bibby couldn't even dream of.

Playing Dwight straight up wasn't the cure all. Drew basically said,, "Let Dwight get his and we will play lockdown defense on everyone else". That is exactly why Hinrich helped out. If you have Bibby on Jameer, Jameer goes for 20+ ppg easily and we lose the series.

Where you Faired have played? I like him and all, but he only would have added to the glut of PFs we have.

I don't believe we are in the same position as before Hinrich. If we didn't have Hinrich, we are a 1st round exit. We might have 18 and Crawford, but we do not know that Teague is our future at PG (since Bibby likely plays the Orlando series).

The only thing I want back from that trade, is the pick. Maybe we could have traded down since vucevic or Montiejunas would have been the only legitimate picks at 18. I think Chicago would have been the best team to swap with, since they coveted Marshon Brooks. Probably could've gotten both first round picks and the 2nd. Then could've swap the 28 + Zaza for Ellington + the 20th(Montiejunas) .. Next draft Tyler Honeycutt with 30, swap the 43 + a future 2nd with Houston to draft Chandler Parson, draft Benson still, sign McCamey and Lighty, & hope somebody has a ROY season.

2011-2012 depth chart

Hinrich/Teague/McCamey
Joe/Lighty/Ellington
Honeycutt/Parsons
Josh/Montiejunas/Rolle
Horford/Gray/Benson/Collins

A lot of rookies, but they are talented role players. Still could be a solid lineup though. Be nice to get Cleveland to take on Marvin for future 2nd's & part of Lebrons TPE. Then sign Aaron Gray. Realistically, i dont see the Hawks getting a big name center unless they develop one..

As far as Hinrich vs Jameer.

Height w/shoes Wingspan Weight Defensive Wins
6'3.75 6'6 190 1.2 -2157 minutes Player A
6'4.25 6'6 200 1.9 -1869 minutes Player B

ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48 minutes
Player A 101 109 0.2 0.5 0.7 0.050

Player B 101 107 0.6 1.9 2.4 0.062
Player C 111 110 1.9 1.2 3.1 0.089

One player is 24 yo next season, the other 31 yo.
One player is bigger and stronger and unhappy his lack of defense lead to him being in the team doghouse the other is quicker and weaker and aging but happy because he was handed the starting job because of expectations.

The 24yo allowed 107 points while on the floor and the year before last 112.
The 31 yo player allowed 107 last year but this year he slipped and allowed 112 (Team 1) and 109 points (Team 2) while on the floor for 2 different teams.

The 31 yo is inherently quicker than the bigger guy and he was able to guard this small 29yo guy in the playoffs.
height wingspan weight
6' 0.25" 6' 2.5" 199'bs - Player C

The 31 yo's winning percentage on team 2 nearly tripled from 0.05 to .132 against the smaller guard. His True Shooting% went from 53% to 58%. Effective Field Goal% went from 52% to 58%.


Player C has never had the defensive reputation of Player A and was not burdened with defending or scoring against shooting guards in small lineups.
Player B really can't guard either position well.
Player C shot 57% from the get go, his team scoring 10 more points per 100 possessions and allowed only 1 mere point more than Player C for the same team.

:::::::
Player A has had 1 season of contributing 10 wins to his team. This year he had 3.5 wins in the playoffs and regular season combined and his defense Rating in the playoffs ranked.

Can u guess who these players are?

Hinrich is 31 yo and has had major surgeries. We all want him to succeed but if he starts we all fail. If he comes off the bench and reduce his minutes there is a better chance his production and efficiency doubles back and he can help us win more games over a sustained season. Instead of playing him 20-30 minutes a game and eating into Marvin's minutes at shooting guard.

Sign Malcolm Thomas SUND!

Hinrich did not get us past Orlando there are no facts to prove that. Trading Vince Carter, Rashard Lewis, and Gortat and playing Dwight straight up as to not let the shooters kill us as usual won that series. Hinrich's great defense and IQ are both myths. Jason Kidd goes to the Nets and they go to two finals in a row. He goes to Dallas and is one of the final pieces to get them to a championship. There is proof in his great IQ and effect on a team. Hinrich goes to Washington and they lose 20 + road games in a row and are just as bad as the year before. Hinrich comes to the Hawks and they have a worse record than before he came. Bibby got us to the next level. We were not a playoff team before Bibby, he came in a midseason trade, we went to the playoffs and pushed the eventual champions to 7. Then we got to the 2nd round 2 years in a row after that. Hinrich has not helped us take the next step and he will not and never was going to. We gave up too much that was a bad trade. Hinrich does not have the explosiveness to be a 6th man and neither does Marvin. Teague is going to end up the 6th man out of necessity and that is just not the way to go. You should groom a starting PG to be a starting PG not a 6th man or backup, ask George Karl, he never sent Lawson back to the bench once they got Felton who is arguably better at this point. The reason was because Karl made a commitment to the future. Lawson is his starting PG and he plays him as such rather than some change of pace guy off the bench. Bad management and coaching cost us 2 1st rd picks for Hinrich.

Jameer Nelson being 6'0 vs. a 6'4 Kirk + an injured Arenas and Otis Smith got Atlanta past Orlando.

Orlando has nobody but Dwight to build around. Teague's offensive rating high was better than anyone in the Chicago series including Derrick Rose.

You dont play Hinrich 30 minutes and split him and Teague. You take the lumps with Teague and raise Hinrich's contributions by keeping him fresh off the bench.

His defensive #s were worse than OJ Mayo. Starting Hinrich with large minutesis not the way to go. Using Teague to hide Hinrich and moving Joe's bad defense to the 3 and Josh defense to the 4 is not the way either.

Nobody on this team paced us with championship caliber (Top 8, past 2 years 102 or below) defense outside of Josh.

We're top heavy in contracts any other move outside of divesting Horford's 10 wins a game will be lateral.
Teague developing into Tony Parker would help win games but not on the bench.

I'f we cant move Horford for Hill (2 wins) Thabeet (4-5 wins) and Motiejunas (8 wins) and THEN bank on Teague developing and Joe regaining form as a utility scorer

then we'll never compete because Al is behind Lamar Odom and Chris Bosh for wins on the season and we're cash strapped as is.

I don't see Horford's minutes and production becoming Wade level unfortunately. Hopefuly we can still do that trade^^^

Otherwise we're ckuffed

Hawks would have ended up drafting Donatas Motiejunas, who i think will most likley be a bust like Tskitishvili

buckeye12 wrote:Hawks would have ended up drafting Donatas Motiejunas, who i think will most likley be a bust like Tskitishvili

didnt Tskitisvli have 7'0 arms like Marvin or Horford that messed up his balance or something like that? edit: I'm watching video right now and sure enough he kicks his legs out underneath him.

Donatas Motiejunas has 6'11 arms-mechanics. Blake Griffin has 6'11 arms-mechanics. Zach Randolph has 6'11 arms-mechanics. Kevin Love has 6'11 arms-mechanics. Troy Murphy has 6'11 arms-mechanics. Chris Kaman has 6'11 arms-mechanics.

Power FORWARDS with assists.

266 ast, 1817 pts - Dirk - Hall of Famer
266 ast, 1178 pts - Al - tweener
202 ast, 1971 pts - Amare - big forward 597fta

I really don't see how Al isn't maximizing his talent. He scores more passes less whats the difference? If he was so dominant wouldn't he get the ball more.

It's like Dwight Howard, close but he's no Wilt Chamberlain down low and his defense is better than his offense so he relies on others to score.


career high Offensive Ratings
AST% TOV% USG% ORtg FTA
25.2 8.7 32.9 125 - 0.321 WS/48 Michael Jordan
38.0 11.0 33.8 122 - 0.318 WS/48 Lebron James
7.5 10.3 28.2 124 - 0.262 WS/48 Stoudemire 556/691
11.8 11.1 22.9 123 - 0.210 WS/48 Love 424/499
8.4 9.5 28.9 123 - 0.210 WS/48 Nowitzki

17.5 11.2 17.6 121 - 0.183 WS/48 Horford 150/188*
16.1 10.0 17.4 125 - 0.198 WS/48 Miller* 233 /287 OMG
*2 Time All Star Brad Miller!!
Championships: 0 , Trade Value? : No waited 2 long

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-pyFRG69gg[/youtube]

Again, I really don't see how Al isn't maximizing what talent he has and unless he suddenly becomes a Hall of Famer caliber player he has peaked.

and this is throwing out the draft camp measurements

To anyone trying to have a rational discussion with Superiorblogman about Hinrich - just know that on MC's blog, he commented that Kirk Hinrich is "for the white people."

Might save you all some time.

It's easy to look at the Hinrich trade in hindsight, but it was a good win-now move that improved our team defense and helped us get past Orlando in the first round. If Hinrich didn't get injured we may have gone even deeper into the playoffs. Either way, our backcourt rotation is looking really strong next year with Teague/Joe/Hinrich, and Kirk's ~8 mil expiring could become a valuable trade chip.

if there is a lockout next year, the hawks will have gotten completely raped on this deal.

I've said this at the time and I still believe it-I think Washington would have done the trade without Crawford in it but the Hawks included him since they didn't ever plan on playing him or picking up his 3rd year option.

Regardless of how it worked out for the Hawks..the Wizards basically got 3 1st round picks for Kirk Hinrich in a 9 month span while the Hawks traded 2 1st rounders for Hinrich and gave away the 31st pick in that same time period.

Miami Heat fan, hello, sorry for the intrusion, but was curious, would you guys do a S&T with Mario Chalmers and Joel Anthony for Kirk Hinrich

mikey1365 wrote:Miami Heat fan, hello, sorry for the intrusion, but was curious, would you guys do a S&T with Mario Chalmers and Joel Anthony for Kirk Hinrich

no, we have no room for developing Chalmers and are comfy with Teague's potential. Anthony has no upside.
And while anthony would defend centers and relieve AL on defense, he doesn't help anyone's offense and doesn't draw double teams for AL

leaving Al's set shot once again smothered on defense in the playoffs.

Anthony's post play is worse than Anyone on this team, Al included. No improvement
#TRADE AL

I was thinking Joel Anthony could really help you guys defensively, and Mario is a nice youg PG again solid defensively, really strting to grow up. While Hinrich will be a pretty much once and done deal. I would doubt he resigns with the hawks at the end of the year and for that matter that the hawks would want him, with the seemingly emergence of Teague

Thats a huge problem finding a center that is going to draw a double team other than Howard is there another one ?

Hawks keep thinking Dalembert/Nene

A) will come here and be the scorer that Boozer/Taj can't single cover
B) they'll come here cheap
or
C) teams want to trade their best centers for Josh Smith. Just because he blocks shots doesn't make him a center.

There are no available centers that complement Horford that fit under our budget and/or are availabe for a 6'8 Josh Smith.

The problem is everyone wants Al to become a dominant scorer like Amare but he's never going to be that guy.

So we're going to turn a 6'10 robotic big man who just had 266 assists and only 80 blocks
into a dominant 25ppg, HOF type scorer.

He's 25 years old and has no advantage off the dribble or in the post.

Coaches (not fans) voted him in the All Star Game Reserve so I guess he's the future of the Hawks.

The GM has the audacity to say he's pursuing the "Detroit Model" when we have played a weak version of PHX ball ever since Al got here.
Now we're trying to make him a "PF".

Josh Smith for Enes Kanter (who's likely an eventual PF btw guys). It's a joke really at this point.

No one in the league can win a championship by giving up an elite core big man for anyone on this team, Al included, as a centerpiece.

The GM said as much on draft day and then tried to blow up the roster by trading Smith for Kanter.

Joe is 30 yo already and we arent getting youth for him.
Unless Horford is traded for the win now Rockets 3 bigs
We're going into rebuild mode pretty soon, as we are not talented/deep enough to win with no shot blocking, rebounding, or inside points.

Horford is at this point our biggest hard cap on winning, he has to be relinquished to take a step forward.