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O.O : Josh Smith vs. Al Horford Complements Discussion

The NBA's Underrated: Josh Smith
By: Jonathan Tjarks
Aug 29, 2011 2:29 PM EDT

After increasing their regular season win totals for six straight years, the Atlanta Hawks plateaued last season. They slipped from 53 wins to 46, losing in the second round of the playoffs for the third consecutive year.

With Joe Johnson due over $100 million in the next five years, they have almost no room to maneuver under the salary cap, even if they don’t re-sign Jamal Crawford. Most of their roster is either similarly overpaid -- Kirk Hinrich, Marvin Williams -- or too young to have much trade value -- Jeff Teague. As a result, the team only has two attractive trade pieces: Al Horford [6’9.3/4] and Josh Smith [6'8.1/4], two athletic forwards in the prime of their careers.

But while Horford has two All-Star appearances to Smith’s none, Smith is the player the Hawks should try to keep. Neither is capable of playing center for an elite team, and Smith is a better individual defender and a more dangerous offensive player.

Horford has been a small-ball center for most of his career, but after Dwight Howard and the Magic annihilated the Hawks in a four-game sweep in the 2010 playoffs, the Hawks began starting Jason Collins, a 7’0 defensive stalwart, when they faced Orlando. Even if they can avoid Howard in the future, a front-court of the 6’10 Horford and 6’9 Smith would be severely undersized against teams like the Bulls, Lakers and Mavericks, who can play multiple seven-footers.

Horford’s two strengths (rebounding the ball and spreading the court) aren’t nearly as valuable at the power forward position as they are as a center. While Smith isn’t the shooter Horford is, his usage rating is five points higher, indicating that Horford depends a lot more on other’s creating open looks for him.

Smith, meanwhile, has quietly become one of the better passing forwards in the NBA: averaging 3.9 assists per 2.45 turnovers over the last two seasons. Among front-court players with the ball in their hands as much as Smith, only a handful (Hedo Turkoglu, Lamar Odom, Pau Gasol, Boris Diaw, Tim Duncan) have a higher assist to turnover ratio over the last two years.

Defensively, Smith is still one of the elite athletes in the league. Both players have wingspans of 7’0 but Smith is the more explosive leaper, which explains why he’s been a consistently better shot-blocker than Horford over his entire career.

Long-term, if the Hawks keep Horford at the power forward position, they will need to find a center who can create his own shot and allow Horford to spot up off of him, much as he did with Joakim Noah in college. Needless to say, the only way to find a center capable of doing that is in the top-5 of the draft.

In contrast, Smith’s ideal front-court partner would be a seven-footer* who could defend the post and stretch the floor. That’s a much easier player to find -- Mehmet Okur, Roy Hibbert -- than a center who can score from the low block or create off the dribble.

Against most of the NBA, Horford is an effective center. But for the Hawks to advance past their second-round plateau, they’ll need to get bigger in the middle, and finding a seven-footer who can complement Smith will be a lot easier than finding one who can complement Horford.

http://basketball.realgm.com/article/21 ... Josh_Smith

*or two since Smith can defend SF AND PF.

I disagree with all Smith needs is a stretch center. I think he needs a stretch forward and an efficient center who has the ability to match up with the Dwights and Noahs of the world.

Smith+ {sf/pf shooter + defensive center}
Marvin + Horford + creating center

furthermore Hawks reportedly shopped for the rights to a creating center in Enes Kanter* for Josh Smith and could not get him.

Yawn, give me the 15 10 center over the 15 and 8 PF.

Horford is easier to build around since he actually has a set position. Smith is too volatile and is undersized for pf

Horford’s two strengths (rebounding the ball and spreading the court) aren’t nearly as valuable at the power forward position as they are as a center.

This says to me much of what needs to be said about that article. If I understand the link correctly, this guy is somewhere around this board writing "articles". He should come out and defend this one, because it needs defending..

Horford is the classic roleplaying PF. A high end one even. People have been complementing that player at center for the entire history of the NBA (although complementing is perhaps not the right word because you don't build your team, or your frontcourt, around players of Horford's level). Were Charles Oakley or Horace Grant hard to complement? Hardly. They are one of the classic forms of PF. Horford is actually one of the single easiest players to complement in the entire league. A nearly universal PF that any team could slip on into their system as most offensive systems, contrary to the article's contention, are constructed around precisely the idea that your PF is going to be able to rebound and at least be able to hit a little 15 foot faceup jumper.

Here is a short list of the Cs that complement Horford's game:
star center -- Horford becomes perfect wingman/enforcer
defensive center -- team becomes one of best rebounding and defending teams in league (need post play)
soft weenie jumpshooting center -- Horford does the dirty work, while weenie stretches the defense, etc.

On the other hand Josh Smith is a freakish player. Call him a 4 and he's undersized and his post game and rebounding are not up to snuff. Call him a SF and his ballhandling and shooting are issues. He's a talent to be sure, but short of taking Rashard's old place alongside Dwight Howard there are no truly smooth fits. Maybe he could slide in next to Bogut.

Chosen01 wrote:Yawn, give me the 15 10 center over the 15 and 8 PF.

Since we're rounding up
Give me the 17 and 9 SF, a PF, and a defensive C
rather than a spread the floor Center
that is If I want to win past the 2nd round.

Smith is easier to complement. Horford actually doesn't have a set position he can defend or score from. Smith is easily set at the SF with a stretch PF.

set Horford at the PF and go hunting for a creator at center. Maybe I should have bolded the articles key points.

I had to laugh at this.

the Hawks began starting Jason Collins, a 7’0 defensive stalwart

when has Collins ever been described as a defensive stalwart, besides this article of course.

I wonder how many Ruhiel anti-Horford agenda threads there are between this, the Hawks, and the T&T board.

Josh Smith net PER by position:
SF: 1.9
PF: 2.8

Al Horford net PER by position:
PF: 6.6
C: 5.7

Right, but it's Al Horford who doesn't have a set position

Ruhiel wrote:

Chosen01 wrote: set Horford at the PF and go hunting for a creator at center. Maybe I should have bolded the articles key points.

In what unvierse are most teams relying on EITHER their centers or PFs to create? There's a handful of those guys in the whole league. Neither team in the NBA Finals had one. I like Noah and Bogut and think Cousins has the potential to be a major star, but there is no way I'm setting up a team with the idea I need to have one of those guys or else. This is typically what PGs are for (and on a team like the Hawks, a versatile shooting guard like Johnson as well). And its not as if Horford is a complete non-passing stiff. He averaged 3.5 assists a game last year. Not a creater, but he'll move the ball.

I agree with Winsome Gerbil. Horford actually has the more conventional skillset for a PF and should therefore be easier to complement.

Plus Horford can also play centre effectively, as the article itself states in the last paragraph. The only reason he suggests moving Horford to PF is because Al can't defend Dwight well. Hardly any shame in that.

tiderulz wrote:I had to laugh at this.

the Hawks began starting Jason Collins, a 7’0 defensive stalwart

when has Collins ever been described as a defensive stalwart, besides this article of course.

Well to be fair its the only possible reason for his contrinued existence in the NBA given that he does absolutely nothing else.

my first reaction before reading the article is that there's is no way its easier to build off of a player that is too short to adequately play the type of post-offense, post-defense, rebounding expected from a pf who simultaneously is too limited in his perimeter offense to play sf. his combination of talents make him a good player, but his unique set of strengths and weaknesses require some pretty specific talent he needs to be surrounded with.


now that i've read the article, still feel the same and feel the article isn't very good.

Long-term, if the Hawks keep Horford at the power forward position, they will need to find a center who can create his own shot and allow Horford to spot up off of him, much as he did with Joakim Noah in college. Needless to say, the only way to find a center capable of doing that is in the top-5 of the draft.

In contrast, Smith’s ideal front-court partner would be a seven-footer who could defend the post and stretch the floor. That’s a much easier player to find -- Mehmet Okur, Roy Hibbert -- than a center who can score from the low block or create off the dribble.

this part specifically kinda sucked. the writer concludes that horford has to be paired up with a center that can create his own shot, but smith only needs a center that can defend the post and spot up. if smith is playing pf with a center that can only spot up on offense, then that frontcourt isn't getting very far, ever. their big man post offense is no where to be seen. i mean smith/okur...that's terrible. 1st round caliber frontcourt with a 2nd round peak.

Winsome Gerbil wrote:

Ruhiel wrote:

Chosen01 wrote: set Horford at the PF and go hunting for a creator at center. Maybe I should have bolded the articles key points.

In what unvierse are most teams relying on EITHER their centers or PFs to create? There's a handful of those guys in the whole league. Neither team in the NBA Finals had one. I like Noah and Bogut and think Cousins has the potential to be a major star, but there is no way I'm setting up a team with the idea I need to have one of those guys or else. This is typically what PGs are for (and on a team like the Hawks, a versatile shooting guard like Johnson as well). And its not as if Horford is a complete non-passing stiff. He averaged 3.5 assists a game last year. Not a creator, but he'll move the ball.

I can see how if you only watched the Finals/MIA this year you said Chris Bosh doesnt create.
But Dirk Nowitzki doesn't "create"?

loserX wrote:I agree with Winsome Gerbil. Horford actually has the more conventional skillset for a PF and should therefore be easier to complement.

Horford actually doesn't have a conventional skillset for a PF. He averages 3.5 assists per game. 2 FTA per game. and 20% usage

in what world is that conventional.

Plus Horford can also play centre effectively, as the article itself states in the last paragraph. The only reason he suggests moving Horford to PF is because Al can't defend Dwight well. Hardly

"Even if they can avoid Howard in the future, a front-court of the 6’10 Horford and 6’9 Smith would be severely undersized against teams like the Bulls, Lakers and Mavericks, who can play multiple seven-footers."
"...Horford depends a lot more on other’s creating open looks for him."
"Long-term, if the Hawks keep Horford at the power forward position, they will need to find a center who can create his own shot and allow Horford to spot up off of him, much as he did with Joakim Noah in college. Needless to say, the only way to find a center capable of doing that is in the top-5 of the draft."

"Against most of the NBA, Horford is an effective center. But for the Hawks to advance past their second-round plateau, they’ll need to get bigger in the middle, and finding a seven-footer who can complement Smith will be a lot easier than finding one who can complement Horford."

Defensively, Smith is still one of the elite athletes in the league. Both players have wingspans of 7’0 but Smith is the more explosive leaper, which explains why he’s been a consistently better shot-blocker than Horford over his entire career.

Long-term, if the Hawks keep Horford at the power forward position, they will need to find a center who can create his own shot and allow Horford to spot up off of him, much as he did with Joakim Noah in college. Needless to say, the only way to find a center capable of doing that is in the top-5 of the draft.

Even if they can avoid Howard in the future, a front-court of the 6’10 Horford and 6’9 Smith would be severely undersized against teams like the Bulls, Lakers and Mavericks, who can play multiple seven-footers.

i know this specific quote doesn't just focus on horford, but the overall tone of the article seems to focus on horford being an undersized center, and really doesn't make a big deal about smith being undersized at pf. In that quote, who is Smith suppose to guard? Pau Gasol? Dirk Nowitzki? may be Carlos Boozer? I know Smith is accepted as a good defensive player because of his weak side blocks, but he can't defend the post against those guys, and with the amount of offensive talent at the pf position, i'd feel more comfortable with a player like horford at the 4 defending them.

funny thread. josh smith is a dumbass, with a poor work ethic who lacks adequate skill for either forward position. he's the type of player who teams should look to flip to idiot GMs who have no idea what a wining basketball player looks like. smith shouldve been off the hawks a long time ago.

basically the answer is horford without a doubt. just thinking about josh smith's game is enough to eliminate him as an option.

tiderulz wrote:I had to laugh at this.

the Hawks began starting Jason Collins, a 7’0 defensive stalwart

when has Collins ever been described as a defensive stalwart, besides this article of course.

Actually, I remember I was a Nets game and Ben Wallace has just won DPOY. They interviewed Lawrence Frank and he was talking about defense and he said that the Nets felt Collins deserved DPOY consideration.

I LOL'd so hard that night!! I'll see if it's on Youtube somewhere...

Horford is easier to complement, if you tell Josh Smith his jumper is looking good or he gets up fast, he'll be like "Go f*ck yourself"

Horford...and it isn't even close.

/thread

dockingsched wrote:

Even if they can avoid Howard in the future, a front-court of the 6’10 Horford and 6’9 Smith would be severely undersized against teams like the Bulls, Lakers and Mavericks, who can play multiple seven-footers.

i know this specific quote doesn't just focus on horford, but the overall tone of the article seems to focus on horford being an undersized center, and really doesn't make a big deal about smith being undersized at pf. In that quote, who is Smith suppose to guard? Pau Gasol? Dirk Nowitzki? may be Carlos Boozer?

Well as far as Smith guarding those guys. He can't. He attacked them on offense. He had to stretch and take them off the dribble. Find shooters for assists, low turnover %.
That has fallen to the wayside with his bulked up body. Less stamina.

NyCeEvO wrote:

tiderulz wrote:I had to laugh at this. when has Collins ever been described as a defensive stalwart, besides this article of course.

Actually, I remember I was a Nets game and Ben Wallace has just won DPOY. They interviewed Lawrence Frank and he was talking about defense and he said that the Nets felt Collins deserved DPOY consideration.
I LOL'd so hard that night!! I'll see if it's on Youtube somewhere...

Dwight Howard and his teammates who didn't get open looks off of double teams isn't laughing. Neither is Stan Van Gundy. Collins is a shell of his former self. He only played 12mpg against Howard and cant keep up with Noah in the 10 or so he played against him.
And Zaza Pachulia says hello. There are people who get paid millions to single cover the Tim Duncans and Dwight Howards. They're called role players.

If you can single cover Dwight Howard. Joe Johnson and the rest of the Hawks can take care of the scoring/ Thread

I know Smith is accepted as a good defensive player because of his weak side blocks, but he can't defend the post against those guys, and with the amount of offensive talent at the pf position, i'd feel more comfortable with a player like horford at the 4 defending them.

This is a good statement. Just because he plays good in a zone doesn't make him a good defensive four. What if he gets beat? Horford isn't blocking it. Someone who anchors DEF so much That makes him what? your center? Hawks did this for 3 str8 playoffs and wonder why they got blown out regularly.

On the other hand your whole premise is that Smith who is 6'8 doesn't have the "shooting" skill to be a "small forward". Most fans that say he does have watched him since he came into the league.

This year his weight went up and his ability to body defenders went up but his first step went away along with his blocks and his ability to shoot. Off the dribble, move without the ball you name it.

The whole premise of Smith as a small forward would be that he's too big and athletic for anyone to guard and still has the 17 foot face up range. If he lost weight he wouldn't need the 3-ball, which btw is for role players.
Smith's offensive strength once lied in offensive boards and shooting 17 feet in. If he played SF again he wouldn't need the weight to defend bigger bodies and his quickness and shot selection would return to transition and drive and dish. He just doesn't have stamina or quickness for it anymore.

Look at what fundamentals, skillset he has against premier guys his size.
Face up. 17 foot in pull ups. Off boards. Left handed
Offensively Who does that make Josh Smith a SF version of?
....
As for others saying you'd take Horford on your team. The article is arguing for who fits on the Hawks not any other team.

Rarely do I see him force a shot, or even look to score when not directed to by the logic of a possession.

This shouldn't even be a thread.

@Ruhiel, Horford is a PF playing Center so he'd be a perfect 18 and 10 PF on any other team that doesn't have like 4 ISO players.