Do you think we will get a real Center before season starts?

Superiorblogman · Post #1 » by **Superiorblogman** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:05 am

I am hoping that we get one. I don't believe for a second that the Dwight dream will come true anytime soon. He may want to play here at some point but it will probably be after he is washed up.

I think Chris Kaman can be had because they will re-sign De-Andre Jordan and if we could send like Zaza and Hinrich to the Clips for something like Kaman and Eric Bledsoe

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=86cnfks

I would love to get Dalembert also and think maybe a sign and trade swap of Dalembert for Crawford and a side deal where we took John Salmons and Garcia for Zaza and Marvin would get it done.

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6vsp8b3

Geaux_Hawks · Post #2 » by **Geaux_Hawks** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:52 am

Darko or Nikola Pekovich wouldn't be bad to have.

Years80HAWKS · Post #3 » by **Years80HAWKS** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:22 pm

Great to have something to talk about again after all these long months.
How is everybody around here? I am missing the NBA and, most than any other thing, the talk we usually had here. After all, getting into the forums always was better for me than even watching the games... ha, ha...

I really hope we get a 5 during these weeks.
With the amnesty clause I really think we should get rid of Marvin (sorry, Marvs, we waited as much as we could, but you never showed a clear sign of consistent improvement) because other options would be too beautiful and too expensive to be true (JJ).

I do not think we need a creative 3 when we have a guard as Teague, who can keep his dribble alive as long as he wants to. JJ can also dribble a lot and so does Hinrich.

Moving J Smoove to the 3 full time, Horford to the 4 (eternal subject) and getting a real 5, although limited, would be great. Dalembert would be ok. Pekovic too. Milicic would be great for us. He is strong, he is big, he is crazy and he does not need too many shots. And one day or another he will begin to play much better.

Then in a good world we even could resing Crawford, although may be it would be better to get a 2 of a lower profile and then get a real 3 that can enter the court for Smith or even Horford at times.
Battier, James Jones, Maurice Evans, Anthony Parker, Josh Powell and D. Wilkins, among own free agents and other free agents should be of interest for us, I believe.

So this would be great:

Teague
JJ
Smith
Horford
Milicic
----------
Hinrich
A. Parker
Battier
Powell
Pachulia
Collins?

Also Michael Redd could be an option and then JJ would be our back-up at the three.
An upgrade over Pachulia as a back-up 5 would also be nice.

Anyway, we have a lot of commited salary just for 8 players and need to adress some important needs. Difficult task for this staff.

Getting rid of LD? Nobody even thinks about that, but that should be our number 1 goal.

Bucked19 · Post #4 » by **Bucked19** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:27 am

I hope we can pull this trade off

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7phuyam

parson · Post #5 » by **parson** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:43 am

Bucked19 wrote:I hope we can pull this trade off

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7phuyam

Gasol will have to be signed before any trade. That means he'll cost a great deal more than $3.5 million. Of course, we could just offer Smith straight up for a re-signed Gasol but I really can't see MEM doing that. Wish they would. They COULD play Randolph at Center and Smith at PF ... but they won't.

Ruhiel · Post #6 » by **Ruhiel** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:35 pm

thats the problem with trading Smith/Horford. The team expending a center needs another one or they go small... just like the Hawks.

Milicic, Smith, Horford where would the shooting come from? Milicic really?

ATL is the butte of contract jokes in the NBA, sorry James Jones would not bear leaving the Heat for ATL's bench.

Battier would be doing charity. Wilkins is a bottom feeder benefiting from nepotism with no real skill. Love his attitude though.

Michael Redd believes he has something in the tank and he is not a Damien Wilkins or Josh Powell type talent. Josh Powell is in China. He is a China level talent. He was voted worst player in the league several times. Josh Powell is terrible but he is not even available.

Bledsloe is a young talent (who Clips want to hang onto anyway) and would be battling Teague. Hinrich is expiring, vet savvy able to start in a pinch and loyal to the Hawks. Zaza is a ironclad savvy vet who provides able to start on a lot of teams can start in an injury pinch and through all the BS benchings and failings of Marvin and Josh and Horford he has been loyal to the Hawks.

Why are the Hawks so eager to get a center? That would move Smith to the 3 and every team would say "look at the dumb@ss Hawks, now Smith has to be available because you just play off Smith and leave him wide open. He's not good at shooting off the dribble or spot ups and he's expiring in a season."

Then you just gave up your depth and Smith will be shooting you out of so many games he'll be available at even more of a discount. What if Kaman does not resign?

Then you gave up all your depth and team balance for Bledsloe and an injury prone 30 game Chris Kaman who then left.

Hawks arent getting a "real" center. The only player that other GMs would give up contending pieces for is Horford. Smith is not "sought after" and would likely have to come with a flippable player like Jeff Teague attached just to get some older devalued center like Okafor.

Years80HAWKS · Post #7 » by **Years80HAWKS** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:18 pm

Ruhiel, you are probably right in every point you made. But the truth, or at least what my eyes and brain made me understand in the POs, is that we were a much better team when Collins was playing the 5, Horford at the 4 and JSmoove at the 3.

May be our game was tough. May be we had more muscle than good plays. Who cares? POs games and series are won in such a way. We did not play brilliantly against the Magic, but we beat them 4-1.
I believe we had a ton of talent when you sum up Teague, Hinrich, JJ, Crawford, Horford and Smith. Also the experience and dirty work of Zaza, Collins, Wilkins and a little bit of Marvin ad the rest.

The problem is we have a coach who is unable to insert a sistem that fits the players or, even if he has one, he has been unable to convice them or to force them to play into that sistem.

So I really believe it is better to play with that big line up of three bigs, which few teams in this league can contest, than play with Horford inside, Smith at the 3 and JJ and Jamaal shooting like crazy. Smith at the three offers two advantages:
- there are two big players to fight for the off rebounds.
- there is only room left for two more guys to shoot from outside or penetrate and take bad shots.

If we take into account all pros and cons, I believe it is better to use a big line up and get a true 5, even if he is not a good one.

Then I do not know who else we could try to attract to the ATL in order to have a decent bench. Together with Hinrich and Zaza, we need some shooting and scoring weapons and a guy that thinks in basketball as a collective game.

Superiorblogman · Post #8 » by **Superiorblogman** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:43 pm

Personally, I am not interested in watching the Hawks without a real Center. I have seen this fraud of a team too many years in a row. The ASG still owning this team saddens me.

Ruhiel · Post #9 » by **Ruhiel** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:36 pm

Superiorblogman wrote:Personally, I am not interested in watching the Hawks without a real Center. I have seen this fraud of a team too many years in a row. The ASG still owning this team saddens me.

+1

But Larry Drew (not management) has come to terms and said that they need a center. Some Fans want one more season of this core but realistically the answer wont be Keith Benson starting and dropping 20 on Boozer come playoffs. Or Smith finally learning to shoot off the dribble or clutch 3s.

The next logical step would be A) a 2 legit bigs for Horford deal. Or sit on the core. Smith for 1 legit big is not going down. He's too small.

Personally, I also see the Hawks as a "team" (loosely used, the pieces dont fit) that gets by on talent. not interested in watching the Hawks with or without a real Center until the playoffs. I have seen this fraud of mismatched pieces too many years in a row.

PHI and IND could have very well have beaten the Hawks last season and IND can now get David West.

ATL should have missed the playoffs in 2008 or 2009 and gotten a lottery pick. The consensus was Smith and Al were undersized on defense. Now it comes to focus that Smith and AL have BIG weaknesses on OFFENSE but Atlanta Hawks KNEW this. They knew they needed more pieces to compete for a title and still said f*** it 2 years in a row, more playoff games = more $$$ .

Post #10 » by **HMFFL** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:47 pm

Bucked19 wrote:I hope we can pull this trade off

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7phuyam

Gasol and Battier are both free agents. Gasol is restricted, but a S&T involving both is unlikely, and Memphis wouldn't trade Gasol straight up for Josh Smith.

Ruhiel · Post #11 » by **Ruhiel** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:10 pm

HMFFL wrote:
Bucked19 wrote:I hope we can pull this trade off

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7phuyam

Gasol and Battier are both free agents. Gasol is restricted, but a S&T involving both is unlikely, and Memphis wouldn't trade Gasol straight up for Josh Smith.

Did not Parson already explained the Gasol part...

Ruhiel · Post #12 » by **Ruhiel** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:16 pm

Years80HAWKS wrote:Ruhiel, you are probably right in every point you made. But the truth, or at least what my eyes and brain made me understand in the POs, is that we were a much better team when Collins was playing the 5, Horford at the 4 and JSmoove at the 3.

May be our game was tough. May be we had more muscle than good plays. Who cares? POs games and series are won in such a way. We did not play brilliantly against the Magic, but we beat them 4-1.
I believe we had a ton of talent when you sum up Teague, Hinrich, JJ, Crawford, Horford and Smith. Also the experience and dirty work of Zaza, Collins, Wilkins and a little bit of Marvin ad the rest.

The problem is we have a coach who is unable to insert a sistem that fits the players or, even if he has one, he has been unable to convice them or to force them to play into that sistem.

So I really believe it is better to play with that big line up of three bigs, which few teams in this league can contest, than play with Horford inside, Smith at the 3 and JJ and Jamaal shooting like crazy. Smith at the three offers two advantages:
- there are two big players to fight for the off rebounds.
- there is only room left for two more guys to shoot from outside or penetrate and take bad shots.

If we take into account all pros and cons, I believe it is better to use a big line up and get a true 5, even if he is not a good one.

Then I do not know who else we could try to attract to the ATL in order to have a decent bench. Together with Hinrich and Zaza, we need some shooting and scoring weapons and a guy that thinks in basketball as a collective game.

If we take into account all pros and cons, and what the media quotes the Hawks management as saying, EVERYONE (Larry Drew, management) believes it is better to use a big line up and get a true 5, even if he is not a good one.
Thats why we drafted Keith Benson, when he was only 217 lbs on draft workouts. Hes around 230lb right now but Hawks are done with Marvin and playing small.

Marvin Williams got benched for Jason Collins and Somebody tried to sell Marvin > Jon Leuer on rebounding and scoring.

The conundrum for Hawks management is now what to do with Marvin Williams? An $8 million bench player?

No ones giving the Hawks a center for Marvin, only amnesty worthy players. The Hawks amnesty might come handy for Joe Johnson down the line as their window winds down. If you trade Joe Johnson then you begin rebuilding in the Era of superstarteams like MIA and NYK and super(depth) teams like Phila and IND teams.

Likely wont get lottery picks until you trade Horford and are absolutely no threat.

Everyone advocates the Hawks getting bigger but the options for getting a center is Keith Benson types and Omar Samhan free agents. And then you have Smith no handle, no jumper, and Horford no handle, no speed, to get a shot off. Neither can shoot the 3 or get the traditional (hoop and harm) 3 point play. Well, Smith can on pick and rolls but he cant set picks and rolls in big lineups Collins and Horford are inside the arc clogging the space.

Defense is elite, Toughness, what every fan deserves to see finally comes but offense becomes counter productive. and from a coaching perspective is gut wrenching.

This is why I proposed Bogut and Leuer for Horford.

This is the postseason lineup: Jeff Teague, Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Al Horford, Jason Collins

Marvin sucks. He’s out to pasture on the bench. Take your pick of starters.

A) Josh Smith beyond the arc vs B) Jon Leuer beyond the arc
A) Al Horford Pick and Pop vs B) Josh Smith Pick and Roll
A) Jason Collins and Zaza Inside vs B) Andrew Bogut and Zaza Inside

There is no system with Josh, Collins/Pachulia and Horford that does not overtax Joe and Teague's perimeter abilities. Blame it on management or either Josh or Horford's lack of scoring versatility or all of them, but Josh and Horford can't get it done unless u get a superstar.

Superiorblogman · Post #13 » by **Superiorblogman** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:52 pm

Zaza is not worth having on your team 75% of the time. He only showed up after the all-star game last year and was still inconsistent. I would rather have 40 games of Kaman in a 66 game season to see where he could push the team to than 66 of Zaza with him only being effective 15 to 20 of 66 games and that is all you will get from him if lucky. Like I stated if I was the GM I would be on the phone right now with the Clips about Kaman because they are not going to re-sign DeAndre and Kaman this summer. DeAndre is good friends with Blake and we all know he is the only person they are truly in love with.

Kaman and Bledsoe for Kirk, Zaza, and 2 2nd rd picks is more than fair considering they are getting picks and they are not going to re-sign Kaman in the offseason most likely anyway.

brigadierjerry · Post #14 » by **brigadierjerry** » Fri Dec 2, 2011 2:48 am

Marvin Josh Horford for Bogut Josh Smith Jon Leuer ,

Ruhiel why do you think the Bucks would make this trade?I think they think Bogut is better than Horford

Superiorblogman · Post #15 » by **Superiorblogman** » Fri Dec 2, 2011 3:22 am

Hate to beat a dead horse but I really think Kaman is feasible.

Ruhiel · Post #16 » by **Ruhiel** » Fri Dec 2, 2011 3:23 am

brigadierjerry wrote:Marvin Josh Horford or Bogut Josh Smith Jon Leuer ,

Ruhiel why do you think the Bucks would make this trade?I think they think Bogut is better than Horford

The Bucks need Bogut to carry their team. They go .500 with him when they would be better rebuilding. Horford is younger and tops out at around similar minutes but is healthier. He can take playing 35mpg.

7 footers like Bogut Collins Chandler Zaza Haywood... Those guys are not built to play 35 minutes per game and get worn down over the season.

Bucks can go .500 with Bogut and overtax his stamina or go .500 with Horford.

Postseason Bogut is better because he has a clear role to just do the dirty work. Bucks problem is getting him in the postseason and they don't have a Joe Johnson or a Teague, Hinrich or Josh Smith.

Superiorblogman · Post #17 » by **Superiorblogman** » Fri Dec 2, 2011 5:10 am

Bogut is not worth Horford nor Josh Smith nor Joe Johnson nor Jeff Teague's potential. Not long ago Bogut was thought of as a borderline bust considering he was taken #1. Bogut is Tyson Chandler at his best. I would send Kirk, Zaza, and 2013-14 1st for Bogut that is about it and fair IMO. Gives them cap relief and a pick.

Post #18 » by **dms269** » Fri Dec 2, 2011 12:56 pm

Superiorblogman wrote:Hate to beat a dead horse but I really think Kaman is feasible.

Kaman is extremely overrated. He isn't a great rebounder or really a good scorer. He is just an average center. That plus his injury concerns makes him a very risky pick of a starting center.

Would I take him if he was available for the right price? Sure. However your offer of Kaman and Bledsoe for Hinrich and Zaza wouldn't work. Clippers are very high on Bledsoe and wouldn't deal him as a throw-in for this deal.

Ruhiel · Post #19 » by **Ruhiel** » Fri Dec 2, 2011 4:41 pm

Superiorblogman wrote:Bogut is not worth Horford nor Josh Smith nor Joe Johnson nor Jeff Teague's potential. Not long ago Bogut was thought of as a borderline bust considering he was taken #1. Bogut is Tyson Chandler at his best. I would send Kirk, Zaza, and 2013-14 1st for Bogut that is about it and fair IMO. Gives them cap relief and a pick.

Tyson Chandler has a ring. Because he has a set role. So does Bogut.

Horford plays multiple roles but would you lose the defense and offensive boards Tyson got for more offense?
On a team with Dirk? Jason? etc?

Tyson Chandler's offensive rating was the highest in NBA history iirc last year. He has a set role. You shoot, I rebound, I dunk it, I get tired, I rest, I'm fresh, I go back in. Rinse & repeat for 30 minutes.

I rather have a zone busting shooter at PF and a dominant rebounder at C. Rather than what we have right now.

Bogut (with Josh and Leuer) is worth Horford because they can get it done in the playoffs. Moreso than Jason Collins/Kito?, Horford, Josh.

Its not going to work and saying otherwise for the 5th year in a row... Thats insane by definition.

Superiorblogman · Post #20 » by **Superiorblogman** » Fri Dec 2, 2011 5:19 pm

uga_dawgs24 wrote:
Superiorblogman wrote:Hate to beat a dead horse but I really think Kaman is feasible.

Kaman is extremely overrated. He isn't a great rebounder or really a good scorer. He is just an average center. That plus his injury concerns makes him a very risky pick of a starting center.

Would I take him if he was available for the right price? Sure. However your offer of Kaman and Bledsoe for Hinrich and Zaza wouldn't work. Clippers are very high on Bledsoe and wouldn't deal him as a throw-in for this deal.

Yes, that is the main reason I think it is feasible. Bledsoe is not a deal killer. I would take Kaman and Travis Leslie or Trey Thompkins for Zaza and Kirk also.