RealGM

Kirk Hinrich and 2nd round pick
to Minnesota for
Luke Ridnour and Anthony Tolliver

With the signing of Barea and the arrival of Rubio, Ridnour because excess. This deal turns his 3yr/12M salary and Tolliver 1yr/2M into Hinrich 1yr/8M deal, so it means savings and flexibility down the road to Minnesota. Atlanta gets another stretch big for the mix in Tolliver and they get a PG able to play from day 1 and back up Teague. My theory is that Ridnour would be here this year and then be used in a trade either next season or the summer after when he becomes an expiring deal. I believe the deal saves us 3.4 this year which could be used to go after 1 more contributor to the roster (I want a big, but Sund said he was happy with our bigs).

Not sexy, but maybe a solid move. What do you think?

The thing with Hinrich trades is that you have to basically formulate a swap of expirings. We aren't adding any salary this year or next so it's required that we pretty much watch him expire and move on from there.
So anyway, either he is included for a bigger deal or he traded for another expiring, that's the only way I see him being moved.

We would actually save some salary in that trade which is good for this years cap, but adding Ridnour to next years cap is not ideal. I would much rather draft a PG and pay him $1 million or so to be a backup than pay Ridnour 4-5 mill.

Like I have suggested I think Kirk and Zaza for Kaman and Willie Warren would be a beautiful trade. Kaman expires just like Kirk and Warren is not even under contract next year. So, we would stay the same cap wise this year and actually drop Zaza's $5 million + from next year. Which would get us under the salary cap next offseason and allow to become a player in the FA market. $55 or so is where we would be if we did that. The salary cap is $58 mill or so. Even if the Clips sent Kaman to NO in the Paul trades to help salary match up I suggest we get in a 3 way sending Kirk's expiring and Zaza for Kaman. Zaza would be a cheaper backup to Okafor than Kaman.

Superiorblogman wrote:We would actually save some salary in that trade which is good for this years cap, but adding Ridnour to next years cap is not ideal. I would much rather draft a PG and pay him $1 million or so to be a backup than pay Ridnour 4-5 mill.

Like I have suggested I think Kirk and Zaza for Kaman and Willie Warren would be a beautiful trade. Kaman expires just like Kirk and Warren is not even under contract next year. So, we would stay the same cap wise this year and actually drop Zaza's $5 million + from next year. Which would get us under the salary cap next offseason and allow to become a player in the FA market. $55 or so is where we would be if we did that. The salary cap is $58 mill or so. Even if the Clips sent Kaman to NO in the Paul trades to help salary match up I suggest we get in a 3 way sending Kirk's expiring and Zaza for Kaman. Zaza would be a cheaper backup to Okafor than Kaman.

The problem with your plan is that Kaman is either to be used for salary match this year or they need the space of him coming of the cap to offer free agents next year. The 5M in cap space that Zaza eats next year could cost the Clippers from bidding for an elite free agent to pair with Blake Griffin.

I don't like Ridnour's 3 year deal, but my thought is that he is tradeable down the line. If not next year, then when he's expiring. Teague has this season and the next under rookie deal. If he excels he'll need paid. If he doesn't he'll need replaced. He and Ridnour, would be a total of 5.2M on the cap this year and 6.4M on the cap next season. Not bad for the platoon. Barring a trade of Josh Smith the core likely is the same for the next 2 seasons, so adding Ridnour won't likely hurt our flexibility.

An alternative idea is to talk to Cleveland about Ramon Sessions once they buy out Baron Davis (affects cap and matching salary). Kirk Hinrich is probably seen as better mentor than Ramon and his deal is a year shorter. Ramon makes 4.25N this year and 4.56N next, but that's it. It depends if Kirk's injury during the 1st month is too much for them. Boobie Gibson could work as well, but I really prefer Ramon for his penetration skills over Gibson outside shooting.

evildallas wrote:

Superiorblogman wrote:We would actually save some salary in that trade which is good for this years cap, but adding Ridnour to next years cap is not ideal. I would much rather draft a PG and pay him $1 million or so to be a backup than pay Ridnour 4-5 mill.

Like I have suggested I think Kirk and Zaza for Kaman and Willie Warren would be a beautiful trade. Kaman expires just like Kirk and Warren is not even under contract next year. So, we would stay the same cap wise this year and actually drop Zaza's $5 million + from next year. Which would get us under the salary cap next offseason and allow to become a player in the FA market. $55 or so is where we would be if we did that. The salary cap is $58 mill or so. Even if the Clips sent Kaman to NO in the Paul trades to help salary match up I suggest we get in a 3 way sending Kirk's expiring and Zaza for Kaman. Zaza would be a cheaper backup to Okafor than Kaman.

The problem with your plan is that Kaman is either to be used for salary match this year or they need the space of him coming of the cap to offer free agents next year. The 5M in cap space that Zaza eats next year could cost the Clippers from bidding for an elite free agent to pair with Blake Griffin.

I don't like Ridnour's 3 year deal, but my thought is that he is tradeable down the line. If not next year, then when he's expiring. Teague has this season and the next under rookie deal. If he excels he'll need paid. If he doesn't he'll need replaced. He and Ridnour, would be a total of 5.2M on the cap this year and 6.4M on the cap next season. Not bad for the platoon. Barring a trade of Josh Smith the core likely is the same for the next 2 seasons, so adding Ridnour won't likely hurt our flexibility.

An alternative idea is to talk to Cleveland about Ramon Sessions once they buy out Baron Davis (affects cap and matching salary). Kirk Hinrich is probably seen as better mentor than Ramon and his deal is a year shorter. Ramon makes 4.25N this year and 4.56N next, but that's it. It depends if Kirk's injury during the 1st month is too much for them. Boobie Gibson could work as well, but I really prefer Ramon for his penetration skills over Gibson outside shooting.

So, exactly why are we suppose to be willing to add to our salary cap next year with Ridnour but the Clips are so smart that they would not do the same with Zaza? Go look at what we have on the books for next year currently. Close to $61 mill, take Zaza's 5+mill off the books and we are under the salary cap of $58 mill. We can simply amnesty Zaza next offseason and get under the salary cap. Why when we can do that would we take Ridnour? My trade offers us getting something for Zaza rather than just using the amnesty on him next summer. We will still be under and have the decision on re-signing Kaman or not. There is no problem with my trade. How do you know that the Clippers would not look at it as they are not going to find a better backup C for Jordan than Zaza for that price? How do you know that they would not just choose to amnesty or cut Mo Williams this year or next year since they now have Billups and keep Hinrich for cheaper? There is no problem with my trade until the Clip say so.

If the Clips amesty Williams, we could evn through DEN in the mix by doing:

Zaza + Hinrich + DEN 2nd to Clips

Nene to ATL

Kaman + Rolle + Warren + ATL 1st to DEN ( Rolle and warren could be consider as immediate of future cap space releif if not used)

Teague - T-Mac - Sloan- Sy
JJ - T-Mac- Stack
Smoothe- Marvin- T Mac
Horford - Radma- Smoothe - Garcia
Nene - Collins- Horford- Benson

that is 14 players. Again, if we could trade Marvin (MIN, DEN or other team with cap), we could bring Jamal back... even by adjusting the trade above to:

Zaza + Hinrich + ATL 2nd to Clips

Nene to ATL

Kaman + Williams + Rolle + Warren + ATL 2nd to DEN

ATL should go after Jefferson (Spurs) who was set free or maybe even Mo Evans

Teague - JC1- T-Mac- Sy
JJ - T-Mac- JC1-
Smoothe- Jefferson (or Mo)- T Mac- Stack
Horford - Radma- Smoothe - Garcia
Nene - Collins- Horford- Benson

I like our starting 5 and then off the bench we would have:
JC1- T-Mac- Jefferson- Radma- Collins or Benson

rumors of Ridnour/Wesley Johnson for Kevin Martin, maybe theyd do it in a sign/trade for Crawford...

Devilzsidewalk wrote:rumors of Ridnour/Wesley Johnson for Kevin Martin, maybe theyd do it in a sign/trade for Crawford...

Thats too much salary for us to take for Jamal would put us way over luxury

Devilzsidewalk wrote:rumors of Ridnour/Wesley Johnson for Kevin Martin, maybe theyd do it in a sign/trade for Crawford...

If you could get Kevin Martin for that package...why settle for Jamal then?

It looks like were one of the suitors for Jamal and have the most money to give him of the teams. I'd do a Ridnour for Jamal sign and trade but that's about it as we can just sign him. Not as much use for Ridnour after the Barea signing

Superior, you do understand the idea of committed salaries, right? We're over 60M with or without Ridnour. If you subtract Zaza we still don't have money to spend in free agency because Joe, Josh, Al, Marvin and Jeff equal about 56M next year (and Jeff ain't much of that). The only ways we would have cap room would be amnesty Joe or give Josh away. If we did that then you're right it would be nice to have Zaza off the cap to get us to a full max offer, but I'm not willing to give Josh away for cap room.

Even with paying Deandre Jordan and signing Butler, the Clips will be able to to get beneath the cap by letting Kaman, Foye, and Cook walk. They can get further under by amnestying Mo Williams if needed. Eric Gordon will be a problem because of his cap hold, but even with that they'll be about 10M under the salary cap. The Minnesota draft pick will eat into that, but if they want to players in free agency they just have to trade Gomes, Aminu, and/or Bledsoe at that time and they could make a run at Chris Paul in the summer. If absolutely necessary to make the deal they could renounce Eric Gordon and keep whomever they pick and they'd have cap room to offer a max deal. Adding salary next season cuts into that 10M under the cap and hurts their leverage. As long as they can easily make moves to get to space to make a full max offer they have leverage. Leverage like New York had with Denver for Carmelo. That year they had cap space and Denver could lose him for nothing or trade him. Denver's only pressure was that they could offer more money in an extension than he could get in free agency, but as team as finding out 10-15M isn't enough of an incentive for a player of that caliber not to decide where they want to play.

evildallas wrote:Superior, you do understand the idea of committed salaries, right? We're over 60M with or without Ridnour. If you subtract Zaza we still don't have money to spend in free agency because Joe, Josh, Al, Marvin and Jeff equal about 56M next year (and Jeff ain't much of that). The only ways we would have cap room would be amnesty Joe or give Josh away. If we did that then you're right it would be nice to have Zaza off the cap to get us to a full max offer, but I'm not willing to give Josh away for cap room.

Even with paying Deandre Jordan and signing Butler, the Clips will be able to to get beneath the cap by letting Kaman, Foye, and Cook walk. They can get further under by amnestying Mo Williams if needed. Eric Gordon will be a problem because of his cap hold, but even with that they'll be about 10M under the salary cap. The Minnesota draft pick will eat into that, but if they want to players in free agency they just have to trade Gomes, Aminu, and/or Bledsoe at that time and they could make a run at Chris Paul in the summer. If absolutely necessary to make the deal they could renounce Eric Gordon and keep whomever they pick and they'd have cap room to offer a max deal. Adding salary next season cuts into that 10M under the cap and hurts their leverage. As long as they can easily make moves to get to space to make a full max offer they have leverage. Leverage like New York had with Denver for Carmelo. That year they had cap space and Denver could lose him for nothing or trade him. Denver's only pressure was that they could offer more money in an extension than he could get in free agency, but as team as finding out 10-15M isn't enough of an incentive for a player of that caliber not to decide where they want to play.

No,you don't understand the concept of committed salaries. Next year we have $61 million committed if we cuts Zaza's salary through a trade in which we take none back that would knock us down below the $58 million salary cap to about $56. Simple we are under the cap. Under the cap allows for us to put in bids on amnestied players and make offers to unrestricted or restricted free agents that we don't own the Bird rights to. Like I said earlier once you get under the cap you can decide if you then want to amnesty Marvin to get further under. Take Marvin's 8 next year away you then have $48 million owed and could offer someone a contract starting at $10 per year, when you think Al only makes $12 per year you could get a damn good player. Basically, that would be De-Andre Jordan's contract. You will still be able to pay Kaman whatever because he is your free agent. I understand the cap perfectly. We get under it by getting rid of Zaza and then we go from there on what moves we want to make to get further under it.

wildvikeswolves wrote:It looks like were one of the suitors for Jamal and have the most money to give him of the teams. I'd do a Ridnour for Jamal sign and trade but that's about it as we can just sign him. Not as much use for Ridnour after the Barea signing

The team is far more interested in a TPE that they'll never use and some conditional throw in 2nd rounder anyway. Doubtful Khan wouldn't negotiate that just cuz he can get Jamal anyway.

Superiorblogman wrote:

evildallas wrote:Superior, you do understand the idea of committed salaries, right? We're over 60M with or without Ridnour...

No,you don't understand the concept of committed salaries. Next year we have $61 million committed...

You both will end on the same conclusion, but you are taking different ways, just because Evildallas thinks it's not important to get 10M of cap room because we will not be able to sign a big player with that, while Superiorblogman thinks it really can help sign a big player
And Evildallas may think it's not important because he knows we would not have 10M to use like I explain later in the post.

Superiorblogman wrote:... if we cuts Zaza's salary through a trade in which we take none back that would knock us down below the $58 million salary cap to about $56....if you then want to amnesty Marvin to get further under. Take Marvin's 8 next year away you then have $48 million owed and could offer someone a contract starting at $10 per year, when you think Al only makes $12 per year you could get a damn good player. Basically, that would be De-Andre Jordan's contract. You will still be able to pay Kaman whatever because he is your free agent. I understand the cap perfectly

Sorry but :
1 - it doesn't get De-Andre Jordan's contract, because as we seen, LAC matched it, like we would be matched by all other teams having player like that and ATL was offering what GSW offered.
It's something to keep someone for 10M, but get another team free agent, not so easy.

2 - you won't be able to still pay Kaman what you would want, because to really be at 48M, we will need to cancel your free agents cap hold, so renounce to bird rights on Kaman.
So you get to 48M with only Joe, Josh, Al and Jeff, and once your cap room used on one player, you will only get the new mini-MLE of 2.5M to add Kaman or other palyers.

3 - actually, you don't have 10M in cap room because you have to add minimum cap holds for all the roster spots to fill first to know exactly your cap room.

So you're missing/forgetting lots of important points that leads to wrong possibilities.

D21 wrote:

Superiorblogman wrote:

evildallas wrote:Superior, you do understand the idea of committed salaries, right? We're over 60M with or without Ridnour...

No,you don't understand the concept of committed salaries. Next year we have $61 million committed...

You both will end on the same conclusion, but you are taking different ways, just because Evildallas thinks it's not important to get 10M of cap room because we will not be able to sign a big player with that, while Superiorblogman thinks it really can help sign a big player
And Evildallas may think it's not important because he knows we would not have 10M to use like I explain later in the post.

Superiorblogman wrote:... if we cuts Zaza's salary through a trade in which we take none back that would knock us down below the $58 million salary cap to about $56....if you then want to amnesty Marvin to get further under. Take Marvin's 8 next year away you then have $48 million owed and could offer someone a contract starting at $10 per year, when you think Al only makes $12 per year you could get a damn good player. Basically, that would be De-Andre Jordan's contract. You will still be able to pay Kaman whatever because he is your free agent. I understand the cap perfectly

Sorry but :
1 - it doesn't get De-Andre Jordan's contract, because as we seen, LAC matched it, like we would be matched by all other teams having player like that and ATL was offering what GSW offered.
It's something to keep someone for 10M, but get another team free agent, not so easy.

2 - you won't be able to still pay Kaman what you would want, because to really be at 48M, we will need to cancel your free agents cap hold, so renounce to bird rights on Kaman.
So you get to 48M with only Joe, Josh, Al and Jeff, and once your cap room used on one player, you will only get the new mini-MLE of 2.5M to add Kaman or other palyers.

3 - actually, you don't have 10M in cap room because you have to add minimum cap holds for all the roster spots to fill first to know exactly your cap room.

So you're missing/forgetting lots of important points that leads to wrong possibilities.

No, you are missing the points. Kaman would not be a restricted free agent but a free agent. We had a hold with Joe because he was restricted. You don't have a hold with non restricted FA's. Also, we have 2 2nd round picks and a 1st round pick. So, the holds you speak of for minimum cap players don't exist. When you get down to $48 you pick up your 2 2nd round picks which you can sign for whatever and your 1st round pick that is about $3 million for 3 players. You then have 8 players. Pick up 4 undrafted or D league players for about $2 million you still are $5 million or so under the cap. Honestly, I know about cap holds and they do not work the way you are trying to explain them. Houston is currently at $47 million that is $11 million under the cap they just offered Marc Gasol a max contract. They have 11 guys under contract. If holds worked the way you say that would mean that they could not have offered him the deal that they offered because money would have been held up for those last 2 roster spots that must be filled. So,add about 2 mill for those last 2 spots for holds they would be at $49. They just made the offer so it is obvious holds dont work like you are thinking and explaining.

LMAO, you are clueless. D21 is the resident capologist here and you think he's mistaken?

MaceCase wrote:LMAO, you are clueless. D21 is the resident capologist here and you think he's mistaken?

Who cares that he is the proclaimed resident cap specialists by someone like yourself.

The fact you just spent a paragraph making an ass out of yourself is all anyone cares about.

Joe was never an RFA with the Hawks. Capholds exist with ANY free agent on a team and thus are what enable you to have Bird rights on them. In fact, Jamal currently has a caphold of 15mil until we renounce him or he signs elsewhere. Roster minimum capholds are not a million dollars they are actually the NBA minimum (duh!) of 441K or so but continue, oh wise one, I love watching you make an ass out of yourself while thinking you are right.

FCNATL85 wrote:Zaza + Hinrich + DEN 2nd to Clips

Nene to ATL

Kaman + Rolle + Warren + ATL 1st to DEN ( Rolle and warren could be consider as immediate of future cap space releif if not used)

Superiorblogman wrote:Like I have suggested I think Kirk and Zaza for Kaman and Willie Warren would be a beautiful trade.

These trades aren't even in the realm of possibilities according to the Clips fans here, and I doubt they're in the realm of possibilities in real life either. I mean sure, it's would be a GREAT trade if LAC was willing to give us a starting C for a backup PG (and parts either way), but it's laughable to think they'd consider it. As for the fans here, many wouldn't do Kaman straight up for Smoove - so forth changing out and putting up a aging, mediocre PG (something they already have mind you) in place of the young, athletic big. No matter how much we love Zaza, he simply isn't a part that would significantly sway a deal either. He's a 'tweener big who shows up only every few games - there's not much draw there.

As for the actual NBA GM, once again - backup (or maybe even #3) PG for the expiring former AS big that you're using to go after CP3 - yeah... that deal is DOA.

evildallas wrote:Kirk Hinrich and 2nd round pick
to Minnesota for
Luke Ridnour and Anthony Tolliver

I'd think that both MIN and we would consider this deal. Ridnour was drafted by Sund in SEA and rumor is that he always liked him. Not a huge fan of Tolliver, but he does play a role that we seem to want and is physically able to do things in the low post that we need. From MIN's end, they can dump some salary and get a grizzled vet to help lead a young locker room.

There are ?'s to the deal though. From our end, can we loose our trove of cheap talent in the form of upcoming draft picks considering the salaries we have committed to JJ, Smoove, and Horford. Without the any production from these picks, can we expect to retain Teague and Smoove once they hit FA?

My bigger ? is from their end though. They built the current incarnation of the team around the 3PT shot. My guess is that Rubio is supposed to be the penetrator to open the perimeter for a deep group of 3 PT shooters. A quick glance at their roster shows they have 5 guys at 40% or above from 3 last year and Wesley Johnson was a rookie whose shooting % should rise. This wasn't a team with a LeBron or a Nash who's such a lethal penetrator that opposing D were constantly leaving their man to help nor was it a team with a D12 or a Shaq in his prime who are such large interior presences that opposing teams had to sag off their perimeter responsibilities in an attempt to stop the pass to the post - yet they were still nailing 3's at a very impressive clip. I don't doubt that MIN would trade Ridnour for Hinrich, the downgrade at the arc isn't that great and the rest of their games should give an advantage to Hinrich, but kicking in the only other big besides Love who can hit the 3 would be another matter entirely. I think they'd consider it, but in the end, I simply don't think they would.

MaceCase wrote:The fact you just spent a paragraph making an ass out of yourself is all anyone cares about.

Joe was never an RFA with the Hawks. Capholds exist with ANY free agent on a team and thus are what enable you to have Bird rights on them. In fact, Jamal currently has a caphold of 15mil until we renounce him or he signs elsewhere. Roster minimum capholds are not a million dollars they are actually the NBA minimum (duh!) of 441K or so but continue, oh wise one, I love watching you make an ass out of yourself while thinking you are right.

You sound like a short bus rider. The minimum is $840,000 +. Joe was a unrestricted FA you got that part correct. The sunshine on any monkey some times.