RealGM

We aren't getting anything big this season in way of trades. The idea going into the year was that familiarity would pay dividends in the shortened season and subsequent playoffs. The more important reason is that contracts are up on Sund and Drew and they are unlikely to deal a key member of the lineup with their jobs on the line. Smaller deals will be sought and likely not found.

In the event that the Hawks exit the playoffs early there might be changes in the front office, on the bench, and on the floor. My question is how bad do you want to rebuild the team? The key player that would have to be moved is Joe Johnson (Josh is expiring anyway and doesn't open much future flexibility). After the season there is one team that might be a candidate for Joe Johnson's contract. That team is Orlando as they try to do everything possible to keep Dwight in Orlando. Do you risk helping Orlando keep Dwight Howard to get out of Joe's deal.

The trade:
Joe Johnson
for
Hedo Turkoglu
JJ Redick
a future pick

It's not a trade to help on court, it is a trade to turn 4yr/89M commitment into 2yr/30M com. It's the cornerstone move to rebuilding. You could either resign Josh Smith and/or Jeff Teague or you could let everyone walk and have a lot of space to work with after Marvin and Hedo come off the cap after 2 years. Another thing you could do is trade the expiring deal of Josh Smith and try to rebuild even quicker.

The only team that is desperate enough to take Joe's contract might be Orlando while trying to keep Dwight Howard and that gives a limited window to decide. Do you want to rebuild sooner rather than later or do you want to continue just making the playoffs with little hope of advancement for another 4 years after this one? Tough choice.

I would do the trade but I am still one of those people that would rather add a real C and trade Josh Smith or move him to SF before rebuilding or blowing things up. I don't consider moving Joe alone as rebuilding. Moving Joe for extra quality depth would be called upgrading. If we can move Joe for 2 or 3 rotation players that is a upgrade and the same goes for Josh because neither is star quality and bring too many problems and bad vibes. I really don't think Turk is quality depth at this point though.

I put a Josh trade suggestion at the end of the Trade Josh Now thread. It is made with the idea of riding out Joe's contract. The suggestion here is just a first move, trading or keeping Josh is a separate item although I personally would trade Josh in the summer as well. While he may not land a max deal in the new NBA economy, it will take a lot of money to keep him. I just think his lack of consistency in his play and his questionable decision making would make that a poor investment. If the Hawks keep him until his contract expires they will either overpay to keep him (like they did Joe) or watch him walk for cap space (like they did with Jamal). Neither outcome advances the cause of going for a title.

I just want to say that you have to consider one thing. The forwards Josh Smith could play with. If he had another SF OR a PF he could defer to, then he becomes a totally different player and we just sold low on an All Star.
It's more likely he plays PF in his next destination because he plays soft for a PF and the small PF thing is not working.

Everyone on the market considers the "Josh-at-SF" thing (hybrid forwards are high on the market, see Jeff Green with Boston, Marion/Josh with Dallas) when trying to buy him.

I highly doubt anyone considers Josh a true "Power" forward or to be fair many say he is not a true "small" forward.

But there are some teams you would look foolish pairing him with. Even with bad shooting at either position teams with ability to deploy Josh Smith+ a good volume scoring SF or a good defensive PF.

Those teams could make ATL an even more maligned franchise.

No team thinks of Josh Smith as a SF. He has LITERALLY none of the attributes you need out of a SF in todays NBA.

Seriously, you can't put a guy that can't dribble and can't shoot at the 3 in the NBA today. And if it can be done, name ONE team that has a guy that can't shoot from midrange or deep and can't handle the ball at the 3 and I will be on Team SF Josh from now on.

Rip2137 wrote:No team thinks of Josh Smith as a SF. He has LITERALLY none of the attributes you need out of a SF in todays NBA.

Seriously, you can't put a guy that can't dribble and can't shoot at the 3 in the NBA today. And if it can be done, name ONE team that has a guy that can't shoot from midrange or deep and can't handle the ball at the 3 and I will be on Team SF Josh from now on.

Metta World Peace

* No team thinks of Josh Smith as a SF.
* And if it can be done, name ONE team that has a guy that can't shoot from midrange or deep and can't handle the ball at the 3 and I will be on Team SF Josh from now on.

In my opinion it would be more "prudential (caring/less insulting)" to show us winning with Josh Smith at SF which you say can't be done. the lock down defense, the added size and athleticism clogging lanes that screw up opposing defenses.

But here: Forget the grind: Carlisle prepared to pick up the pace with Mavericks

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/s ... tro-080515

"This is not about me coming in here with my style," Carlisle said. "This is about fitting the style to the personnel."

The one conclusion you could draw Wednesday is that Carlisle, at the very least, is pretty realistic. He knows that the supporting cast around
Nowitzki

and Kidd has some sizable holes in a Western Conference that punishes those weaknesses more than ever. He also knows that he just signed up to work for a demanding sort who only expects him to go "82-0 and win a championship."

It sounds
as though June, July and August will be busy, too, with rumblings already in circulation

about the Mavs hoping they can work their way into the sign-and-trade mix for either Miami's Shawn Marion or Atlanta's Josh Smith. They are likewise bound to be linked in trade speculation to Indiana's Jermaine O'Neal, given O'Neal's successes playing for Carlisle and amid a growing anticipation in Dallas that swingman Josh Howard (after last month's marijuana monologues) and former Carlisle go-to guy Jerry Stackhouse (who only has one year and $2 million guarantee for 2009-10 left on his contract) will be offered in various trade scenarios.

By your old definition Marvin Williams is and has always been > Shawn Marion.
By your old definition Mark Jackson did not play Dominic McGuire (no handle no jumper) on Joe Johnson and beat us.

Flawed thinking Rip but anyways welcome aboard!

The funny thing is we just frikkin saw Dominic McGuire play the 2 the other day and he busted our collective "keisters".

Ellis
McGuire
Wright
Lee
Biedrins

McGuire was matched up on Joe and had 11 rebounds the 1st quarter I believe. and you're telling us about "today's NBA".

I seen Renaldo Balkman do damage (on the Nets) with Carmelo + Amare + Tyson.

We have more than enough ball handling and shooting in that lineup to win with defense.

If we are going to dump JJ, then we should trade Smoove - either in the same trade or immediately on the heels of. Just think that if we're trading JJ, then we're rebuilding. If we're rebuilding, then we'd rebuild around the 2 young controlled or controllable guys on the roster - Teague and Horford. Dumping JJ then simply letting Smoove walk would extend the rebuilding process at least another year or 2. If we're going to take the action, then don't treat them separately.

The one trade I keep going back to in my head is this:
To PHI: JJ, Smoove
To ATL: Brand, Turner, (Nocioni or T Young)*, 1st
* - PHI's choice. Not sure if they'd prefer the cap room of shedding Young's long term deal considering Smoove and he are somewhat redundant or if they'd simply prefer to match salaries with Nocioni.
** - PHI could also opt to take on either 'Twin or Dampier (or both) if they so desired.

Why for PHI: They'd arguably be the best team in the NBA and squarely in the conversation for Title Contenders with a window that should be open through the end of next season at least. Not only would JJ add some sorely needed outside shooting, but without thinking too hard, I'd say that JJ and AI would be the 2nd best wing tandem in the NBA. Jrue, Lou, and even Meeks would make for formidable depth on the perimeter. JJ might be the weakest defender of that quintet which is saying something, and with those defenders on the perimeter with Smoove's shot blocking inside, they'd have arguably the best perimeter defense in the league. In the front court, the Hawes/Vucevic tandem should compliment Smoove pretty well since they both have the size to match up with opposing C's on D and the mid-range game to move away from the basket on O. Battie, Brackins, and whoever is left over from Nocioni or T Young should be decent depth for the scant leftover minutes there. There would be enough room to take on another defensive C as well - hence, the Collins or Dampier addendum to the trade.

Why for ATL: Shed JJ's contract and rebuild around Horford/Teague. As far as the salary guys, Brand expires after next season which would take basically all of JJ's contract off the books. Nocioni would further help taking salary off the books, but T Young, while probably a bit overpaid in the current market, is a good combo F off the bench who could get PT for an upper-division club so carrying his salary isn't too wretched. A realistic worse case scenario with Young would be that he remains the same good-but-not-great bench player with us and we shovel him off in a few years to finish off the rebuilding effort.

For the rebuilding assets, the 1st should be at least OK (mid-20's since the trade would happen so late). Turner has skills but he is lacking in some of the natural physical tools that his skills need to shine, so it's doubtful he'll ever be much more than he is now - which is very average overall. Basically, we'd be telling both Turner and Marvin that, look, so far you've both underperformed in your respective NBA careers, but if you're ever going to become anything, the opportunity is now. They're both FA's before the '14/'15 season, so either they would have stepped up and proven their worth another contract, or it'd be easy enough to replace them with one of the 9 draft picks we'd own between now and then or find cheaper alternatives somewhere in those 3 off-seasons.

With Joe having a consecutive down year, this time marred by chronic knee issues (uh oh) it's doubtful that the Sixers wish to walk into a situation where they extend Brand's bad deal by 3 years. The on court production simply does not match the headache of the contract so the only manner of getting rid of Joe now is through amnesty. The new CBA has even the most fiscally irresponsible franchises tightening their belts now so even attaching Joe to one of our better assets will not net a trade from opposing teams.

Injury to Joe would mean we wouldn't have to pay him - our insurance on him would kick in. Unless Joe picks it up, that may be our only hope.

parson wrote:Injury to Joe would mean we wouldn't have to pay him - our insurance on him would kick in. Unless Joe picks it up, that may be our only hope.

It would have to be a serious injury for one and that wouldn't improve our cap situation at all so it would be a double whammy where he's not available and we most definitely would not be able to go out find a replacement even if an exemption is granted. Ugh, I'm fearing Speedy 2.0.

MaceCase wrote:

parson wrote:Injury to Joe would mean we wouldn't have to pay him - our insurance on him would kick in. Unless Joe picks it up, that may be our only hope.

It would have to be a serious injury for one and that wouldn't improve our cap situation at all so it would be a double whammy where he's not available and we most definitely would not be able to go out find a replacement even if an exemption is granted. Ugh, I'm fearing Speedy 2.0.

It would need Joe to get a career ending injury, but it can help regarding the cap : it wouldn't be immediate, but his numbers would be out after one year.

Amnesty : doesn't count against cap immediately / have to pay full contract
Career ending injury : doesn't count after one year / don't have to pay (paid by insurance)

Well then D21, here's to "bloody wars and dread diseases"

Looks like its coming guys.

Ruhiel wrote:* No team thinks of Josh Smith as a SF.
* And if it can be done, name ONE team that has a guy that can't shoot from midrange or deep and can't handle the ball at the 3 and I will be on Team SF Josh from now on.

In my opinion it would be more "prudential (caring/less insulting)" to show us winning with Josh Smith at SF which you say can't be done. the lock down defense, the added size and athleticism clogging lanes that screw up opposing defenses.

But here: Forget the grind: Carlisle prepared to pick up the pace with Mavericks

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/s ... tro-080515

"This is not about me coming in here with my style," Carlisle said. "This is about fitting the style to the personnel."

The one conclusion you could draw Wednesday is that Carlisle, at the very least, is pretty realistic. He knows that the supporting cast around
Nowitzki

and Kidd has some sizable holes in a Western Conference that punishes those weaknesses more than ever. He also knows that he just signed up to work for a demanding sort who only expects him to go "82-0 and win a championship."

It sounds
as though June, July and August will be busy, too, with rumblings already in circulation

about the Mavs hoping they can work their way into the sign-and-trade mix for either Miami's Shawn Marion or Atlanta's Josh Smith. They are likewise bound to be linked in trade speculation to Indiana's Jermaine O'Neal, given O'Neal's successes playing for Carlisle and amid a growing anticipation in Dallas that swingman Josh Howard (after last month's marijuana monologues) and former Carlisle go-to guy Jerry Stackhouse (who only has one year and $2 million guarantee for 2009-10 left on his contract) will be offered in various trade scenarios.

By your old definition Marvin Williams is and has always been > Shawn Marion.
By your old definition Mark Jackson did not play Dominic McGuire (no handle no jumper) on Joe Johnson and beat us.

Flawed thinking Rip but anyways welcome aboard!

LOL. Shawn Marion plays the 4 for the Mavs and the mavs were looknig for a quicker 4. He has played th 4 for over a decade in the NBA because of exactly what I said. He has no handles and his shot is too flawed to get off on defenders(but he is STILL a MUCH better shooter than Josh Smith).

THe meaning of the exact article you are quoting is saying that they were looking for a more athletic 4 that can run the court and move Dirk to the 3 where he belongs. But appreciate you proving my point.

And I guess I should have clarified. Name a SUCCESSFUL team that has used a non ball handling non shooting SF in the last, lets say, 20 years. I am giving you 2 decades to find a good team that has a SF that can't shoot from outside 10 feet, and can't handle the basketball at all. 20 years dude. Name ONE.

I saw someone name Artest up there but Ron is a better jumpshooter than Josh and is a MUCH better ball handler. not even close.

Rip2137 wrote:I saw someone name Artest up there but Ron is a better jumpshooter than Josh and is a MUCH better ball handler. not even close.

He's a much worse shooter than Josh, this season he's shooting 35% from the field and 24% from 3; he's been atrocious

ATL Boy wrote:

Rip2137 wrote:I saw someone name Artest up there but Ron is a better jumpshooter than Josh and is a MUCH better ball handler. not even close.

He's a much worse shooter than Josh, this season he's shooting 35% from the field and 24% from 3; he's been atrocious

To pile on.

2010-2011 Champion Dallas Mavericks Top Five-Man Floor Units

Winningest lineups:

http://www.82games.com/1011/1011DAL2.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1011/10DAL13.HTM

Shawn Marion-Dallas Mavericks-2010-2011 NBA Season
-----

Statistically you are up there with the elite in this league. You are one of six players to averaging more than 18 points and ten rebounds a game (Elton Brand, Shaquille O’Neal, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki and Tim Duncan are the others), yet you don’t seem to get the national recognition that others get. Why do you think that is?

SM: I don’t know… You said it, 18-10, how many small forwards are averaging 18 points and 10 rebounds? Only one… I’m just going to keep doing what I’m doing and sooner or later they’ll come around, but I’ve just got to keep working hard and trying to get better.

http://hoopshype.com/interviews/marion_koek.htm

Rip2137 wrote:* And if it can be done, name ONE team that has a guy that can't shoot from midrange or deep and can't handle the ball at the 3 and I will be on Team SF Josh from now on.

And I guess I should have clarified. Name a SUCCESSFUL team that has used a non ball handling non shooting SF in the last, lets say, 20 years.
I am giving you 2 decades to find a good team that has a SF that can't shoot from outside 10 feet, and can't handle the basketball at all. 20 years dude. Name ONE.

Hahaha what a sucker. You think Josh Smith cant shoot from outside 10 feet and cant handle the basketball at all. Did you miss the 2010-2011 Season?
You dont really think Shawn Marion was "successful" as a 4 when he just won at the 3.
Dirk is a 3? So who was guarding Lebron? Dirk Nowitzki, the natural 3 was guarding Lebron?


Can anyone outside of our typical Hawks peanut gallery verify this, because it sounds absolutely loony to me.
In this guys mind the espn article said [the Mavs] "were looking for a more athletic 4 [Marion/Josh] that can run the court and move Dirk to the 3 where he belongs".

What a nut... Josh is a natural 3.

The only way Josh works at SF (as Ruhiel points out) is if you have a guy like Dirk who can shoot from outside at PF/C. It gives him a chance to hang out under the basket more, make athletic plays, and focus more on defense. Otherwise, he needs to play PF and have someone more physical around him at SF and C. I think that has been one major weakness of this team for a while. Marvin is a more physical SF (or at least should be considering his size, but Horford isn't quite big enough at C. Ideally, we need a big guy to play C who also shoots from outside (along the lines of Okur). A big who can shoot is extremely rare though, so I think we are simply doing the best we can with what opportunities have come our way.