ImageImage

Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location

Moderators: dms269, HMFFL, Jamaaliver

User avatar
Ruhiel
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,502
And1: 45
Joined: Dec 28, 2010

Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#1 » by Ruhiel » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:35 pm

according to KB21 of peachtreehoops fame:
Interesting stat
Looking at hoopdata.com’s shot location data. It is interesting that power forwards in the NBA average around 235 shot attempts in the 16-23 foot range while small forwards average around 190 shot attempts at that range. What’s also interesting is that power forwards on average hit about 41% of those shots while small forwards hit 36%.

What’s interesting and actually gives PGS’s plan a lot of support is that Josh would actually be above average relative to his FG% from that range as a small forward. Granted, Josh had 411 shot attempts at that range on the year. Only Kobe Bryant had more at that range. Everyone talks about how Josh shouldn’t shoot those though.

LeBron James 347 attempts, 39%
Carmelo Anthony 308 attempts, 35%
Andre Iguodala 213 attempts, 31%
Luol Deng 234 attempts, 35%

What’s the biggest difference between these guys and Josh? LeBron was assisted on 21% of his shots. Anthony was assisted on 29% of his shots. Iguodala 31%. Deng 55%.

Josh Smith was assisted on 75% of his shot attempts in the 16-23 foot range. What that tells me is that the design of the offense had him in position to be the outlet option in that range, and his shot attempt total has more to do with offensive design than him wandering around the perimeter.

More Data
In the 2011-2012 season, the average combined shot attempts from 16-23 feet and behind the 3 point line for each position, and the respective average field goal percentage on these shots (note that hoopdata uses eFG% on three point shots and not traditional FG%):

Point Guards: 161 (16-23 feet) at 38.9%, 171 (three point) with an eFG% of 52.1
Shooting Guards: 180 (16-23 feet) at 43%, 206 (three point) with an eFG% of 55.1
Small Forwards: 163 (16-23 feet) at 36.9%, 190 (three point) with an eFG% of 54.0
Power Forwards: 235 (16-23 feet) at 41.4%, 78 (three point) with an eFG% of 52.1
Centers: 89 (16-23 feet) at 39.8%, 17 (three point) with an eFG% of 46.2


What I've told people all along. The PF is the release valve for offense and results in mid-range shooting, usually from the high elbow. Larry Drew and the Hawks organization has actually been encouraging Josh Smith to take mid-range jumpers and further more with his quickness at the 4 spot he is going to get more of them off than normal.

Here as a SF we see Josh in Marvin's role and he has more limited options creating shots so the Hawks have to use the size of Horford and Zaza to set some screens and Joe pops open for a pretty shot.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZRhv9V9dsI[/youtube]
Further here's a relatively weak post defender in Troy Murphy using his size to force Smith into a tough shot. Thats why he stands at the elbow. But even further then there's a relative elite post defender in Kobe Bryant and he can't do much with Josh. And even fouled Smith it should have been an and-1.
http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2012/7/19 ... -you-think
User avatar
geeman
Senior
Posts: 656
And1: 3
Joined: May 27, 2005

Re: Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#2 » by geeman » Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:28 pm

Great post!!! very good infomation
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 45,169
And1: 17,180
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#3 » by Jamaaliver » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:59 pm

What FG% did Josh Smith shoot from 16 - 23 feet? I don't see it listed.
User avatar
D21
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,574
And1: 689
Joined: Sep 09, 2005

Re: Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#4 » by D21 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:04 am

Josh has 37% on 16-23 Feet, and has 38.3% on eFG% at 3 (eFG% = 1.5 x 3ptsFG% has it gives you 3pts instead of 2pts).

But there's something I already talked about some days ago : when Josh was shooting more 3s, he has better 3ptsFG%, not very good, but enough to be more effective than long 2s, and it was also the years he had the best FT%.
You can see it in 2010-2011 : 39% on 16-23 Feet, and 33.1% on 3s, which makes 49.7 on eFG% at 3pts.

When you are shooting 39% on long 2s (maybe he's better on 16 feet than 23 feet) and one step behind you have the same thing than shooting 49.7% at 2 (33.1% at 3), you should always be one step behind, no matter it comes from coaching or from you. I don't care who's responsible of that, I just see that it's a stupid thing to launch these long 2s.
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 45,169
And1: 17,180
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#5 » by Jamaaliver » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:49 am

All things considered, I really don't want Josh taking long jumpers or three pointers.

AL, maybe, Since he makes them at a high clip.

Josh should stick to the post, taking bigger, slower pFs off the dribble. Or just scoring in transition.

I've always found it unacceptable that he shoots such a low FG% as a Power Forward.
User avatar
Ruhiel
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,502
And1: 45
Joined: Dec 28, 2010

Re: Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#6 » by Ruhiel » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:56 am

Jamaaliver wrote:All things considered, I really don't want Josh taking long jumpers or three pointers.

AL, maybe, Since he makes them at a high clip.

Josh should stick to the post, taking bigger, slower pFs off the dribble. Or just scoring in transition.

I've always found it unacceptable that he shoots such a low FG% as a Power Forward.

Sounds good but its easier said than actually done.

Josh isn't that great shooting off the dribble. In the post or otherwise.
And 4s and 5s dont score much in transition.

2s and 3s do however, cuz they run the wing
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 45,169
And1: 17,180
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#7 » by Jamaaliver » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:51 am

Ruhiel wrote:Sounds good but its easier said than actually done.

Josh isn't that great shooting off the dribble. In the post or otherwise.
And 4s and 5s dont score much in transition.

2s and 3s do however, cuz they run the wing


So, wait. Josh has an inconsistent jumpshot. He isn't very good off the dribble or scoring in the post.

He's undersized at the 4 and has trouble guarding bigger, stronger, taller PFs.

Why do we want this guy as the focal point of our team again? :-?
Rip2137
Analyst
Posts: 3,317
And1: 228
Joined: Jun 24, 2006

Re: Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#8 » by Rip2137 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:49 pm

Oh stop it. He is the teams best player and was last year coming in right at 20 and 10. He has more trouble guarding jumpshooting 4's than anything. Guys like Brand and ridiculously long guys like Garnett give him trouble, sure, but its not like they suck against the rest of the league either.

At the 4, he is good off the dribble, has a decent midrange jumper and can post up pretty well.
User avatar
Ruhiel
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,502
And1: 45
Joined: Dec 28, 2010

Re: Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#9 » by Ruhiel » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:30 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
Ruhiel wrote:Sounds good but its easier said than actually done.

Josh isn't that great shooting off the dribble. In the post or otherwise.
And 4s and 5s dont score much in transition.

2s and 3s do however, cuz they run the wing


So, wait. Josh has an inconsistent jumpshot. He isn't very good off the dribble or scoring in the post.

He's undersized at the 4 and has trouble guarding bigger, stronger, taller PFs.

Why do we want this guy as the focal point of our team again? :-?


Depends what position he plays.Got to mix him in at the wing more
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZTF5Pl7sd8[/youtube]
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 45,169
And1: 17,180
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#10 » by Jamaaliver » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:41 pm

Rip2137 wrote:Oh stop it. He is the teams best player and was last year coming in right at 20 and 10. He has more trouble guarding jumpshooting 4's than anything.


So an undersized PF who once ALMOST averaged 20 ppg & 10 rpg is our best player.

No wonder we're such a dominant force in the regular season and playoffs...
Rip2137
Analyst
Posts: 3,317
And1: 228
Joined: Jun 24, 2006

Re: Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#11 » by Rip2137 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:20 pm

Yes, it must really suck to have 2 players that are all stars (lets be honest, Josh should have been) at the front court.

I have this distinct feeling that you would complain about literally anything no matter what the teams make up was. Yes, we are building around 2 young allstar caliber front court players that have made the playoffs for 5 straight years.

The "OMG WE HAVEN"T WON A TITLE IN THE LAST 3 SEASONS WE SUCK!!!!" stuff is just pathetic guys.
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 45,169
And1: 17,180
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#12 » by Jamaaliver » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:26 pm

Rip2137 wrote:I have this distinct feeling that you would complain about literally anything no matter what the teams make up was.


Nah. If you heck my post history, I'm a pretty positive, open-minded guy.

My ire is preserved for Josh Smith specifically.

I think he's moody, inconsistent, has a low basketball IQ and is an underachiever.

I don't really have a problem with this roster cause we are in the process of remaking ourselves. We have cap space, a plan and a future.

I just believe it's foolish to view Josh as a centerpiece. There's a reason he's never been picked by the coaches to be an All-Star. There's a reason he had his best season ever, but wasn't selected All NBA 2nd Team or All NBA 3rd team.

Joe Johnson was a 6x all star. he made the All NBA 3rd team in 2010.
Horford is a 2x time all star. He made All NBA 3rd team in 2011.

But the media, coaches, players don't view Josh Smith very highly. And there's a reason for that.

Josh Smith has broken my heart too many times over the last 7 years. And as he loses his athleticism, he will lose his effectiveness. We sign him to a fat, long contract next season and we'll regret it within 2 years.
Rip2137
Analyst
Posts: 3,317
And1: 228
Joined: Jun 24, 2006

Re: Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#13 » by Rip2137 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:34 pm

But the media and coaches saw Joe Johnson in a positive light which shows how little the media and other coaches matter.

Joe Johnson who got progressively worse and more selfish each season he was here dispite the team and all the players getting better each season.

Joe Johnson that threw his teammates under the bus multiple times for his no showing in the playoffs and in big games.

Joe Johnson who, after every SINGLE member of the team came back better and they went undefeated in the preseason got in front of the cameras and said management didn't give him a team that he could win with.

Joe Johnson our ball dominating shooting guard who has same amout of assist as our "low basketball IQ" having POWER FORWARD.

Yeah...the Media and the coaches sure have it right. Atlanta fans laughed at at least 3 of those All-star selections. Josh deserved them more than him. Call Josh moody all you want, we watched Joe sulk through half a season because Marvin Williams and Josh Smith were outplaying him.(and then Marvin went from slashing small forward averaging over 16 points and 6 fta for the first half of that year to being regulated to Joe Johnsons outlet on jumpers the rest of the year.)

I don't see how you can say a guy that has improved year on year on every aspect of his game is a underachiever. I think people are confusing "low basketball IQ" with "too much confidence in jump shot".

The media and coaches being stupid means nothing to me. Show me the list of 19/10/4/2/1.5 guys in the league.
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 45,169
And1: 17,180
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#14 » by Jamaaliver » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:38 pm

I would say that JJ was a top 5 SG his entire tenure.
He led us in scoring and assist every season before this year.

But on the Josh Smith issue, I think we'll have agree to disagree...for now. Maybe he'll take the next step and actually average 20 ppg and 10 rpg. But I believe he's hit a plateau. Without a consistent offensive threat like JOE on the floor, other teams are gonna focus on stopping him specifically.

My frustration comes from how many times I've seen him grab a rebound, lead the break and simply throw the ball on a bad pass as he tries to run point. Or how he'll drive to the basket, get contact and when the ref doesn't call a foul, he doesn't get back on defense. Or when he makes a bad play on offense and throws up an airball, he mopes for the following few minutes.

I've seen him argue with coaches, throw alley oops to no one from halfcourt on consecutive plays, throw inbounds passes to the opposite team in the closing seconds of a playoff game and put up Jumpshot after Jumpshot. In seven years he's never avg 20 ppg or 10 rpg.

If he takes the next step this season, I'll put up a post acknowledging I was wrong. You cn call me out and rub it in. As a Hawks fan, I'll be happy to admit it.

18/9/4 was a good season. Let's see if he can do even better now that he's officially the man.
Rip2137
Analyst
Posts: 3,317
And1: 228
Joined: Jun 24, 2006

Re: Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#15 » by Rip2137 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:40 pm

Well when Joe went down, he was around 24 points and 10 rebounds again(and 4.5 assist).

I don't expect those numbers because I expect 15-17 from horford and around 15 from Teague(if not put on a leash). I expect Williams to score around 13-15 per game off the bench and with the shooters we have, I honestly expect 6-7 guys in double figures this season.

His rebounding will regress mostly because he will be playing along side a good rebounder in Horford.

I just don't think "better numbers than 18-9" is a way to count a great season from him.

Can I add...its kinda awesome to have a regular basketball talk...haven't gotten much of that around here recently.
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 45,169
And1: 17,180
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#16 » by Jamaaliver » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:56 pm

Rip2137 wrote:Can I add...its kinda awesome to have a regular basketball talk...haven't gotten much of that around here recently.


Indeed, Danny Ferry has renewed my interest in a waning franchise. And the rudeness level around here is unusually high for the offseason. (I'm looking at you dtown.)

Agree with you also about Smoove not needing to avg 18/9 to have a great season.

I'd like him to maintain at least a 17 ppg avg since he'll likely be our primary option on offense.
And focus less on jumpers (as we have a team with a number of good shooters) and hit on at least 45% of his shots. If he avg 20+ ppg though, he'll easily be an All Star and All NBA.

He's also got to get his blocks per game back to more than 2 per game.

And I want him to lead fewer fast breaks since we have experienced PGs who can run the break.
User avatar
Ruhiel
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,502
And1: 45
Joined: Dec 28, 2010

Re: Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#17 » by Ruhiel » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:18 pm

If Josh doesn't lead the break then what is he going to do? Trail?
Wait and post up? He cant do that, but you dont want him shooting jumpers neither.

If Josh is at the 4 then the Hawks are playing Nellie-ball and he along with Horford are the point-forwards that make the shooters get open.

I for one dont like Nellie Ball. And prefer SMith as a wing. I like Jenkins but I'm scared his FTA are gonna be dismal and allow SGs to stay in the game if his shot dries up.

Ferry should have gotten a center!
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 45,169
And1: 17,180
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#18 » by Jamaaliver » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:18 am

YES: Josh Smith as a trailer out running bigger, slower PFs on the break is exactly what I want.
Josh catching alley-oops = :D . Josh throwing alley oops = :x .

I don't know that Ferry's vision is to have John Jenkins as a starter at SG big picture.

I don't know that Smoove at PF equals Nellie ball. it's a pretty standard strategy in basketball to run the offense out of the high post.

1. Let the big pass it to a cutting guard for an easy layup.
2. Let the big pass out of a double team to an open 3 pt shooter.
3. Or let the big take his man one-on-one if hes has position or a good matchup.

These are all things we've seen shaq, yao, DHoward, Karl Malone, Tim Duncan, KG do over the years.
3pt shooters spread the floor for post players allowing the big guys more room to operate.

Basketball 101.
User avatar
Ruhiel
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,502
And1: 45
Joined: Dec 28, 2010

Re: Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#19 » by Ruhiel » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:23 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:YES: Josh Smith as a trailer out running bigger, slower PFs on the break is exactly what I want.
Josh catching alley-oops = :D . Josh throwing alley oops = :x .


Josh catching alley oops? Oh.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=309h7u56fw8[/youtube]
Pretty standard play for a wing to get a steal and run the wing for an oop.

Smoove at PF equals Nellie ball. it's pretty standard that you get the rebound and if you outlet you take yourself out of the initial break. AND that if you wait to outlet you have your man AND the SF, SG, PG running back in transition defense as well.

The only way the Josh Smith gets transition dunks as a 4 is if his man falls over and/or a turnover occurs.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ce6yHVavd8[/youtube]

You're talking about the trailer running hard and evading 4 or 5 defenders for a dunk. Routinely. Come on thats ridiculous. If youve seen the Hawks play that might happen once or twice. Or even Blake Griffin who is a better dunker (as far as practicality goes) only dunks once or twice in transition per game.

Thats a fluke play. Whats not a fluke, is using your faster guys at PF and C to run the fast break. Meaning dont wait for the outlet pass, just go.
Then your trailers become your wings because they are slow unathletic shooters.
Before the Celtics’ last regular season game against the Hawks, coach Doc Rivers said, “They’re an inverted transition team. You don’t see it very often where the bigs outrun the guards. Their bigs fly. Horford, I don’t know what motor he runs on, but it’s amazing.


Its Nellie-ball.
Rip2137
Analyst
Posts: 3,317
And1: 228
Joined: Jun 24, 2006

Re: Josh Smith, PFs, and Hoopdata Shot Location 

Post#20 » by Rip2137 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:20 pm

Bigs running the court does not suddenly make it Nellie ball.

Josh Smith is a prototypical PF in todays NBA and Al Horford is a prototypical Center in todays NBA. Its not like playing Billy Owens at center.

Return to Atlanta Hawks