RealGM

Posted: **Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:48 am**

The Hawks have had three major GMs in the last 30 or so years. I though it would be interesting to compare the major moves of Ferry to those of Knight and Babcock. I think we will find that there are some similarities. I'm only using a limited time for Knight and Babcock to match up with the time we have had Ferry.

The Moves of Billy Knight.

• June 26, 2003: Selected Boris Diaw (1st round, 21st pick) and Travis Hansen (2nd round, 37th pick) in the 2003 NBA Draft.
• July 23, 2003: As part of a 4-team trade, the Atlanta Hawks traded Glenn Robinson and a 2006 2nd round draft pick (Daniel Gibson was later selected) to the Philadelphia 76ers; the Minnesota Timberwolves traded Terrell Brandon to the Atlanta Hawks; the Minnesota Timberwolves traded Marc Jackson to the Philadelphia 76ers; the New York Knicks traded Latrell Sprewell to the Minnesota Timberwolves; the Philadelphia 76ers traded Randy Holcomb and a 2007 1st round draft pick to the Atlanta Hawks; and the Philadelphia 76ers traded Keith Van Horn to the New York Knicks. Atlanta did not receive the 1st round draft pick from Philadelphia because it was lottery protected; they received cash instead.
• September 4, 2003: Signed Jacque Vaughn as a free agent.
• October 3, 2003: Signed Stephen Jackson as a free agent.
• February 9, 2004: Traded Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Dan Dickau and Theo Ratliff to the Portland Trail Blazers for Wesley Person and Rasheed Wallace.
• February 15, 2004: As part of a 3-team trade, the Atlanta Hawks traded Nazr Mohammed to the New York Knicks; the Milwaukee Bucks traded Joel Przybilla to the Atlanta Hawks; the Milwaukee Bucks traded Tim Thomas to the New York Knicks; the New York Knicks traded Michael Doleac and a 2005 2nd round draft pick (Ronny Turiaf was later selected) to the Atlanta Hawks; and the New York Knicks traded Keith Van Horn to the Milwaukee Bucks.
• February 19, 2004: As part of a 3-team trade, the Atlanta Hawks traded Rasheed Wallace to the Detroit Pistons; the Boston Celtics traded Chris Mills to the Atlanta Hawks; the Boston Celtics traded Mike James to the Detroit Pistons; the Detroit Pistons traded Zeljko Rebraca, Bob Sura and a 2004 1st round draft pick (Josh Smith was later selected) to the Atlanta Hawks; and the Detroit Pistons traded Chucky Atkins, Lindsey Hunter and a 2004 1st round draft pick (Tony Allen was later selected) to the Boston Celtics.
• June 24, 2004: Selected Josh Childress (1st round, 6th pick), Josh Smith (1st round, 17th pick), Donta Smith (2nd round, 34th pick), Royal Ivey (2nd round, 37th pick) and Viktor Sanikidze (2nd round, 42nd pick) in the 2004 NBA Draft.
• July 15, 2004: Traded Stephen Jackson to the Indiana Pacers for Al Harrington.
• August 4, 2004: Traded Alan Henderson, Jason Terry and a 2007 1st round draft pick to the Dallas Mavericks for Tony Delk and Antoine Walker. Dallas did not receive the 1st round pick because it was lottery protected; they received cash instead.
• February 24, 2005: Traded Antoine Walker to the Boston Celtics for Tom Gugliotta, Gary Payton, Michael Stewart and a 2006 1st round draft pick (Rajon Rondo was later selected).
• June 28, 2005: Selected Marvin Williams (1st round, 2nd pick), Salim Stoudamire (2nd round, 31st pick) and Cenk Akyol (2nd round, 59th pick) in the 2005 NBA Draft.
• August 11, 2005: Signed Zaza Pachulia as a free agent.
• August 19, 2005: Traded Boris Diaw, a 2006 1st round draft pick (Rajon Rondo was later selected) and a 2008 1st round draft pick (Robin Lopez was later selected) to the Phoenix Suns for Joe Johnson.
• June 28, 2006: Selected Shelden Williams (1st round, 5th pick) and Solomon Jones (2nd round, 33rd pick) in the 2006 NBA Draft.
• July 12, 2006: Signed Speedy Claxton as a free agent.

The Moves of Pete Babcock.

• • June 27, 1990: Traded a 1990 1st round draft pick (Tyrone Hill was later selected) and a 1990 2nd round draft pick (Les Jepsen was later selected) to the Golden State Warriors for a 1990 1st round draft pick (Rumeal Robinson was later selected), a 1990 2nd round draft pick (Steve Bardo was later selected) and a 1990 2nd round draft pick (Trevor Wilson was later selected).
• • June 27, 1990: Selected Rumeal Robinson (1st round, 10th pick), Trevor Wilson (2nd round, 36th pick) and Steve Bardo (2nd round, 41st pick) in the 1990 NBA Draft.
• • September 24, 1990: Signed Howard Wright as a free agent.
• • September 27, 1990: Traded Roy Marble and Kenny Smith to the Houston Rockets for John Lucas, Tim McCormick and a 1994 1st round draft pick (Charlie Ward was later selected).
• • June 26, 1991: Traded Doc Rivers to the Los Angeles Clippers for a 1991 1st round draft pick (Stacey Augmon was later selected), a 1993 2nd round draft pick (Rich Manning was later selected) and a 1994 2nd round draft pick (Gaylon Nickerson was later selected).
• • June 26, 1991: Selected Stacey Augmon (1st round, 9th pick), Anthony Avent (1st round, 15th pick) and Rodney Monroe (2nd round, 30th pick) in the 1991 NBA Draft.
• • July 1, 1991: Traded Spud Webb and a 1994 2nd round draft pick (Lawrence Funderburke was later selected) to the Sacramento Kings for Travis Mays.
• • July 1, 1991: As part of a 3-team trade, the Atlanta Hawks traded Anthony Avent to the Milwaukee Bucks; the Atlanta Hawks traded a 1993 2nd round draft pick (Josh Grant was later selected) to the Denver Nuggets; the Denver Nuggets traded Blair Rasmussen to the Atlanta Hawks; and the Milwaukee Bucks traded Kevin Brooks and a 1994 2nd round draft pick (Rodney Dent was later selected) to the Denver Nuggets.
• • October 3, 1991: Traded Tim McCormick and a 1994 1st round draft pick (Charlie Ward was later selected) to the New York Knicks for Maurice Cheeks.
• • March 17, 1992: Signed Jeff Sanders as a free agent.
• • June 24, 1992: Selected Adam Keefe (1st round, 10th pick) and Elmer Bennett (2nd
• • November 3, 1992: Traded Rumeal Robinson to the New Jersey Nets for Mookie Blaylock and Roy Hinson.
• June 30, 1993: Selected Doug Edwards (1st round, 15th pick) and Rich Manning (2nd round, 40th pick) in the 1993 NBA Draft.
• • July 2, 1993: Signed Craig Ehlo as a free agent.
• • September 7, 1993: Signed Andrew Lang as a free agent.
• • October, 1993: Signed Ennis Whatley as a free agent.
• • November 26, 1993: Signed John Bagley as a free agent.
• • February 24, 1994: Traded Dominique Wilkins and a 1994 1st round draft pick (Greg Minor was later selected) to the Los Angeles Clippers for Danny Manning.
• • June 22, 1994: Traded Roy Hinson to the Milwaukee Bucks for Ken Norman.
• • June 29, 1994: Selected Gaylon Nickerson (2nd round, 34th pick) in the 1994 NBA Draft.
• • September 16, 1994: Traded Adam Keefe to the Utah Jazz for Tyrone Corbin and a 1995 2nd round draft pick (Cuonzo Martin was later selected).
•

The Moves of Danny Ferry

• June 28, 2012: Selected John Jenkins (1st round, 23rd pick) and Mike Scott (2nd round, 43rd pick) in the 2012 NBA Draft.
• July 11, 2012: Traded Marvin Williams to the Utah Jazz for Devin Harris.
• July 11, 2012: Traded Joe Johnson to the Brooklyn Nets for Jordan Farmar, Anthony Morrow, Johan Petro, DeShawn Stevenson, Jordan Williams, a 2013 1st round draft pick (Shane Larkin was later selected) and a 2017 2nd round draft pick.
• July 12, 2012: Signed Louis Williams as a free agent.
• July 16, 2012: Traded cash to the Chicago Bulls for Kyle Korver. Chicago also received a trade exception from Atlanta.
• February 21, 2013: Traded Anthony Morrow to the Dallas Mavericks for Dahntay Jones.
• June 27, 2013: Selected Dennis Schroeder (1st round, 17th pick), Shane Larkin (1st round, 18th pick), Raul Neto (2nd round, 47th pick) and James Ennis (2nd round, 50th pick) in the 2013 NBA Draft.
• June 27, 2013: Traded Shane Larkin and cash to the Dallas Mavericks for Jared Cunningham, Lucas Nogueira and Mike Muscala.
• July 10, 2013: Signed Paul Millsap as a free agent.
• July 15, 2013: Signed Elton Brand as a free agent.
• July 29, 2013: Signed Gustavo Ayon as a free agent.
• August 3, 2013: Signed DeMarre Carroll as a free agent.

As you sift through the moves, I think you'll notice that each GM had a firesale. Each traded the aging stars of the team before him for capspace. The question is is there any difference in how each GM did it and who's firesale was the best planned and why?

Posted: **Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:34 pm**

"Pssst, you forgot someone."

Posted: **Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:35 pm**

all this really shows me is that we draft terribly. Even Ferry hasnt really landed anyone worth mentioning besides Mike Scott. Granted these have been some weak drafts.

Posted: **Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:55 pm**

all this really shows me is that we ... scout ... terribly.

And that's management's fault.

Posted: **Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:22 pm**

Picking at 15 and up is a crapshoot. I can blame guys for bad lottery picks, but outside of that you can't really knock a guy.

Babcock was pretty horrible. He drafted bad, traded bad(except for getting Mookie and signing Ehlo). Plus he traded Dominque. When we had the number 1 record in the East at the all-star break. Its also missing some real Babcock gems like the Steve Smith for Isiah Rider deal, Lo Wright for 40 something million dollars...I can go on. But he was pretty bad.

Posted: **Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:38 pm**

I hate to bring up the Nique trade, but I'm a milestone geek as next month would be 20 years since then.

Posted: **Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:09 pm**

Rip2137 wrote:Picking at 15 and up is a crapshoot. I can blame guys for bad lottery picks, but outside of that you can't really knock a guy.

Babcock was pretty horrible. He drafted bad, traded bad(except for getting Mookie and signing Ehlo). Plus he traded Dominque. When we had the number 1 record in the East at the all-star break. Its also missing some real Babcock gems like the Steve Smith for Isiah Rider deal, Lo Wright for 40 something million dollars...I can go on. But he was pretty bad.

Babcock will be remembered for screwing up the Dominique trade but I would consider him a good trade guy and a terrible draft guy... and sometimes, his trades would effect the draft. On the surface with the trades, getting a guy like Mookie for Rumeal is probably one of the top steals ever. Then he got Smitty with KWillis, he used Augmon very strategically to guarantee us getting Deke (i.e. Detroit took on so much salary that they couldn't afford to fight it out with us for Deke), etc. His Nique trade is only seen as bad because Manning Left and later was injured. But otherwise, his Nique trade would have been similar to trading Joe Johnson and getting back Klay Thompson.

Posted: **Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:29 pm**

diesel50 wrote:Babcock will be remembered for screwing up the Dominique trade but I would consider him a good trade guy and a terrible draft guy...

PandaKidd wrote:all this really shows me is that we draft terribly

Rip2137 wrote:Babcock was pretty horrible. He drafted bad...

Pete Babcock is quite possibly the worst drafting GM I've ever seen in any pro sport. You'd think he'd at least hit one solid draft pick just out of sheer dumb luck. The biggest tell regarding his evaluation of young prospects is that most of our first rounders during his tenure not only didn't last on our team long term. Most were out of the league altogether after a few seasons.

Cal Bowdler. Dion Glover. Ed Gray. (NOTE: Ed Gray was at least a beast while playing for the Hawks. He used to train in the offseason at my gym and played 21 with us High School kids on occasion.) None of these guys did much (or anything) after leaving the hometeam.

Posted: **Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:30 pm**

Sidenote: GREAT topic, diesel.

Thanks for putting up some thought provoking threads during this extremely slow period of Hawks basketball.

Posted: **Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:21 am**

If you're looking over the last 30 years, then we have to include Kasten - who might have been a worse drafter than Babcock. I can see skipping over Sund though - his tenure was mostly as a caretaker where he didn't do anything particularly good or bad and just tried to tread water.

Babcock: Probably his best creation were the Mookie/Smitty/Mutombo teams which actually didn't happen until closer to the end of his tenure. He inherited Dominique and his trading has already been discussed.
Biggest failure: The Promise

Knight: Now we had definitely had some dropoff when he came in, but he really left us as a laughingstock throughout his tenure. I'll credit him with the JJ/Smoove/Horford iteration that Sund watched over, but the entire tenure was marked by the classic "collector" instead of "creator" and the genuine insistence that he was smarter than everyone else while collecting busts like Marvin and Sheldon leaving pundits scratching their heads in a way we haven't seen until Kahn with MIN. I guess he drafted better than the previous 2 GMs (albeit they are comped to some of the worst drafters in sports history), but that gets a bit obscured when you dedicate 7 of 9 consecutive pick for a wing. Now, it appears that BK's refusal to place any importance on the C position at the beginning of his tenure has greatly curtailed the playing career of the best guy he drafted in Horford so even this GM has to be put into a "TBD" state.
Biggest Failure: His bosses ended up in court over his blundering of the rules that were set forth in contract.

Ferry: he has impressed me in a lot of areas, but until we have a team that is good and genuinely his, He's really TBD.
Biggest failure: uh... Not trading Smoove... If that could be considered a failure.

In some sense, DF would have to be considered the best GM over the last 25 years as long as he doesn't blow it. The Promise and the Court Case literally left us a complete laughingstocks for years, so it's a pretty low bar to hurdle - just don't be a laughingstock.

Posted: **Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:21 am**

theatlfan wrote:In some sense, DF would have to be considered the best GM over the last 25 years as long as he doesn't blow it. The Promise and the Court Case literally left us a complete laughingstocks for years, so it's a pretty low bar to hurdle - just don't be a laughingstock.

This. Ferry's on the right track, and he hasn't really done anything wrong, he's actually undone some of the wrongs that his predecessors did. It's been a tough couple of decades for Hawks fans thanks to some incompetent front office work. Ferry's trying to usher in a new era of professionalism and I appreciate him for that, hopefully these next few decades won't be as bad as these last few.

Good thread btw.

Posted: **Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:06 am**

theatlfan wrote:
Ferry: he has impressed me in a lot of areas, but until we have a team that is good and genuinely his, He's really TBD.
Biggest failure: uh... Not trading Smoove... If that could be considered a failure.

In some sense, DF would have to be considered the best GM over the last 25 years as long as he doesn't blow it. The Promise and the Court Case literally left us a complete laughingstocks for years, so it's a pretty low bar to hurdle - just don't be a laughingstock.

I would have to argue that. I don't know. Let's get real specific here. All of his draft picks thus far = Nothing.... Well, Scott is not as soggy as the rest. What we got back for Joe (so far) is rentals. The Joe trade becomes a failure if we ending up with the 18th pick and Brooklyn ends up with the 17th this year. The one thing I respect about BK is that when he had a firesale, it was fast and he came away with something. BK got rid of Terry, Shareef, Theo, and Big Dog and he came back with Josh Smith and at the end of the day... Joe Johnson. Yeah, he screwed up every lottery pick that we got but we did get a 6 time allstar from all the movement.

Ferry whiffed on D12. Whiffed on CP3. Whiffed on any Big that we could have got this past offseason. We came away with Teague and a bunch of Eurotrash and old man Brand. Here's the problem... if we wasn't going to get these free agents, why not put Josh in trade last year. We could have gotten E. Turner. We could have gotten something from Detroit. We could have gotten into the Iguodala deal. Instead, we held our cards until all that was left was a bunch of sorry Jokers. I like that we got Sap, but we could have gotten Sap anyway. We had that much money.

Now Hawks fans are going to be mad about this but it's inevitable that Horf or Sap be traded this offseason. I don't think Horf will want to play Center anymore and I don't think Sap will come off the bench or feel comfortable at the three. So...Hawksfans, get rid of your sacred cows...a move is on the way. Plus, if we don't have a championship team, let's get what we can for Horf (or Sap) and finish up this firesale.

Posted: **Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:26 am**

diesel50 wrote:
theatlfan wrote:
Ferry: he has impressed me in a lot of areas, but until we have a team that is good and genuinely his, He's really TBD.
Biggest failure: uh... Not trading Smoove... If that could be considered a failure.

In some sense, DF would have to be considered the best GM over the last 25 years as long as he doesn't blow it. The Promise and the Court Case literally left us a complete laughingstocks for years, so it's a pretty low bar to hurdle - just don't be a laughingstock.

I would have to argue that. I don't know. Let's get real specific here. All of his draft picks thus far = Nothing.... Well, Scott is not as soggy as the rest. What we got back for Joe (so far) is rentals. The Joe trade becomes a failure if we ending up with the 18th pick and Brooklyn ends up with the 17th this year. The one thing I respect about BK is that when he had a firesale, it was fast and he came away with something. BK got rid of Terry, Shareef, Theo, and Big Dog and he came back with Josh Smith and at the end of the day... Joe Johnson. Yeah, he screwed up every lottery pick that we got but we did get a 6 time allstar from all the movement.

Ferry whiffed on D12. Whiffed on CP3. Whiffed on any Big that we could have got this past offseason. We came away with Teague and a bunch of Eurotrash and old man Brand. Here's the problem... if we wasn't going to get these free agents, why not put Josh in trade last year. We could have gotten E. Turner. We could have gotten something from Detroit. We could have gotten into the Iguodala deal. Instead, we held our cards until all that was left was a bunch of sorry Jokers. I like that we got Sap, but we could have gotten Sap anyway. We had that much money.

Now Hawks fans are going to be mad about this but it's inevitable that Horf or Sap be traded this offseason. I don't think Horf will want to play Center anymore and I don't think Sap will come off the bench or feel comfortable at the three. So...Hawksfans, get rid of your sacred cows...a move is on the way. Plus, if we don't have a championship team, let's get what we can for Horf (or Sap) and finish up this firesale.

I appreciate your thread and agree with you that Ferry is being let off easy. He is being treated like some type of God who can do know wrong. How is Ferry on the right track when he has not done anything totally good so-far?

Traded Joe a 5 or 6x all-star for floor trash and capspace which he spent on trash and mediocre players that are not going to get us anywhere.

Traded Marvin for Devin Harris which is his best move so-far.

Let Josh and Jamal both quality players walk and got nothing in return.

Has had 5 picks and only one of them are fruit-bearing as of now in Mike Scott. He knew that draft picks were a cheap way to get players and keep the cap space that he had created. Thus, knowing that he has drafted poorly.

Finally, people really are running around acting like the shot in the dark move to include the rights to swap picks is genius when it is not. It is a shot in the dark, we have little to know control over rather or not the Nets will make the playoffs and if they do it does not look so genius to those people anymore.

Posted: **Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:51 am**

Yes SBM, you are on the money.

Here's the thing... Lucas and Dennis could turn out... but right now, Dennis doesn't seem to be progress nor is he giving the coach what he wants. I wouldn't be surprised to see Dennis packaged in a high fruit bearing trade. A trade where we use his potential to get us a better player. To date, The two best things that Ferry did was getting out of Marvin's contract and getting Sap. The thing with Sap is that he duplicated the same logjam we had with Smoove. It's going to be very important to see what Ferry does next. Sap could be a really strong trading chip or the same could be said about Horf.
I think Ferry has learned that Atlanta is a great destination but nobody wants to play here. I think the D-12 and CP3 snubbs really helped him to see that Capspace is meaningless until you get a good player. What I mean by that is that we can have 70 Million to spend but FAs aren't that interested in us. He really does have to change the culture but you can't do that while disrespecting your own free agents. His treatment of Smoove is great for fans, but it sent ripples through the player community. It said... this is how you can expect to be treated if you go to Atlanta. Smoove said that when he became a free agent, Ferry never said anything to him (from a negotiation standpoint). It's like Smoove was ignored totally. Why didn't Ferry try to get a pick or something for Smoove?
The truth is that Ferry suffers from the same thing that Knight suffered from... EGO.

Both Ferry and Knight came in with a belief that they know the best way to build a team. Knight said Long and Athletic guys who can be interchangable at each position. Ferry says Smart, good natured guys who will follow directions. I worry that Ferry wants to prove a point to the NBA that you don't need Lebron to win a championship. If that be the case, then Ferry will never really go out and try to get a superstar. He will keep getting guys who are blue collar hard hat guys who are good but not really star material. I may be wrong, but I doubt it. Ferry's overarching goal is to prove that his way is right... and this is not about Atlanta, but this is more about recovering from the shame of Cleveland. Unfortuanately, this is a stars league. Unless after February 1, everything that Stern built goes with him, you will need a star to be respected in this league.

Posted: **Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:03 am**

diesel50 wrote:
theatlfan wrote:
Ferry: he has impressed me in a lot of areas, but until we have a team that is good and genuinely his, He's really TBD.
Biggest failure: uh... Not trading Smoove... If that could be considered a failure.

In some sense, DF would have to be considered the best GM over the last 25 years as long as he doesn't blow it. The Promise and the Court Case literally left us a complete laughingstocks for years, so it's a pretty low bar to hurdle - just don't be a laughingstock.

I would have to argue that. I don't know. Let's get real specific here. All of his draft picks thus far = Nothing.... Well, Scott is not as soggy as the rest. What we got back for Joe (so far) is rentals. The Joe trade becomes a failure if we ending up with the 18th pick and Brooklyn ends up with the 17th this year. The one thing I respect about BK is that when he had a firesale, it was fast and he came away with something. BK got rid of Terry, Shareef, Theo, and Big Dog and he came back with Josh Smith and at the end of the day... Joe Johnson. Yeah, he screwed up every lottery pick that we got but we did get a 6 time allstar from all the movement.

Ferry whiffed on D12. Whiffed on CP3. Whiffed on any Big that we could have got this past offseason. We came away with Teague and a bunch of Eurotrash and old man Brand. Here's the problem... if we wasn't going to get these free agents, why not put Josh in trade last year. We could have gotten E. Turner. We could have gotten something from Detroit. We could have gotten into the Iguodala deal. Instead, we held our cards until all that was left was a bunch of sorry Jokers. I like that we got Sap, but we could have gotten Sap anyway. We had that much money.

Now Hawks fans are going to be mad about this but it's inevitable that Horf or Sap be traded this offseason. I don't think Horf will want to play Center anymore and I don't think Sap will come off the bench or feel comfortable at the three. So...Hawksfans, get rid of your sacred cows...a move is on the way. Plus, if we don't have a championship team, let's get what we can for Horf (or Sap) and finish up this firesale.

??

I really don't know what to say so I'll just reiterate my greater point to move on: both Pete Babcock and Billy Knight did something so embarrassing that we were a national punch line for years. Literally all I'm saying is that as long as Ferry doesn't set us up as a punch line to jokes for off the court failings, then yes, he was better than those 2...

I'm not saying Ferry is perfect - far from it. I do think some of your gripes are legit, but I also think he's had some redeeming qualities as well - i.e. His ability to find cheap vet role players in FA (Lou, Brand, DMC) and his penchant for using the D-League to both find and polish talent. We'll see if he can land the superstar (truly the most important factor for a GM in today's NBA) but outside of the current play and whereabouts of his draftees, I generally give him passing marks.

Look, I've never had a "sacred cow" but I have had problems with "making change" for a player. I don't like trading a dollar for 4 quarters or (worse) 10 dimes - if I'm the one giving up the better player, then I'm looking for 5 quarters back - especially when that player is an AS.

Posted: **Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:03 pm**

SBM wrote:
diesel50 wrote:
theatlfan wrote:
Ferry: he has impressed me in a lot of areas, but until we have a team that is good and genuinely his, He's really TBD.
Biggest failure: uh... Not trading Smoove... If that could be considered a failure.

In some sense, DF would have to be considered the best GM over the last 25 years as long as he doesn't blow it. The Promise and the Court Case literally left us a complete laughingstocks for years, so it's a pretty low bar to hurdle - just don't be a laughingstock.

I would have to argue that. I don't know. Let's get real specific here. All of his draft picks thus far = Nothing.... Well, Scott is not as soggy as the rest. What we got back for Joe (so far) is rentals. The Joe trade becomes a failure if we ending up with the 18th pick and Brooklyn ends up with the 17th this year. The one thing I respect about BK is that when he had a firesale, it was fast and he came away with something. BK got rid of Terry, Shareef, Theo, and Big Dog and he came back with Josh Smith and at the end of the day... Joe Johnson. Yeah, he screwed up every lottery pick that we got but we did get a 6 time allstar from all the movement.

Ferry whiffed on D12. Whiffed on CP3. Whiffed on any Big that we could have got this past offseason. We came away with Teague and a bunch of Eurotrash and old man Brand. Here's the problem... if we wasn't going to get these free agents, why not put Josh in trade last year. We could have gotten E. Turner. We could have gotten something from Detroit. We could have gotten into the Iguodala deal. Instead, we held our cards until all that was left was a bunch of sorry Jokers. I like that we got Sap, but we could have gotten Sap anyway. We had that much money.

Now Hawks fans are going to be mad about this but it's inevitable that Horf or Sap be traded this offseason. I don't think Horf will want to play Center anymore and I don't think Sap will come off the bench or feel comfortable at the three. So...Hawksfans, get rid of your sacred cows...a move is on the way. Plus, if we don't have a championship team, let's get what we can for Horf (or Sap) and finish up this firesale.

I appreciate your thread and agree with you that Ferry is being let off easy. He is being treated like some type of God who can do know wrong. How is Ferry on the right track when he has not done anything totally good so-far?

Traded Joe a 5 or 6x all-star for floor trash and capspace which he spent on trash and mediocre players that are not going to get us anywhere.

Traded Marvin for Devin Harris which is his best move so-far.

Let Josh and Jamal both quality players walk and got nothing in return.

Has had 5 picks and only one of them are fruit-bearing as of now in Mike Scott. He knew that draft picks were a cheap way to get players and keep the cap space that he had created. Thus, knowing that he has drafted poorly.

Finally, people really are running around acting like the shot in the dark move to include the rights to swap picks is genius when it is not. It is a shot in the dark, we have little to know control over rather or not the Nets will make the playoffs and if they do it does not look so genius to those people anymore.

While Joe was an All-Star, he was also signed to an albatross of a contract. This year he is currently making nearly 1/3 of the salary cap. In two seasons it will almost be 1/2 of it. Having him makes it nearly impossible to do anything with a roster in general. He wasn't going to get tons of top players or picks for JJ just because that contract is that bad.

Posted: **Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:44 pm**

It appears that the reason for this thread is to argue we need to trade Horford. diesel50, 2 threads for one agenda?

I think Ferry is up to 2 things: first, he's growing a team of professionals; second, he's waiting for a James Harden situation, where he can pick up a talent because he has cap freedom and the other team doesn't. So we're growing and waiting.

Posted: **Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:46 pm**

parson wrote:It appears that the reason for this thread is to argue we need to trade Horford. diesel50, 2 threads for one agenda?

I think Ferry is up to 2 things: first, he's growing a team of professionals; second, he's waiting for a James Harden situation, where he can pick up a talent because he has cap freedom and the other team doesn't. So we're growing and waiting.

I think the thoughts about Ferry plans change as often as he does. If I would have asked you last year at this time when we were turning away trades for Smoove, I'm sure you would have said that Ferry's plan was to get big free agents like D-12 and/or CP3 to build this team around. Since we whiffed on those guys and a few others this summer, the plan is now... waiting for a Harden situation. My agenda in this thread was to compare Ferry to Knight to Babcock and show that there is virtually no difference in how two of the three operate. Knight came in and had a firesale and tried to build through the draft,. Ferry hasn't said it, but logically, that's the same road he's taking. Ferry's plan doesn't bankrupt us all at once like BK's did but a slow burn and a quick fire both have the same results. Babcock was different because he was handed a very good team and while he tried to caretake it, he was placed in a situation where he had to build and he really never had a blueprint. Babcock didn't have enough Ego to believe that he could build a winner so his plan was just get the best deal I can and not let players age out on me. There's some good about that but ultimately a GM needs a PLAN.

You believe that Ferry has a plan? I don't think it's a clear one. Just look at how he has signed contracts. He signs transitional players with no trade. He signed Long term specialist with no championship quality team. He drafts players with potential and has a coach that won't play them. Especially when Horf is down. It's like getting on a treadmill and running really hard. You're working out but you're really not going anywhere.

Posted: **Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:26 pm**

^I don't know who this diesel fella is...but I like him!!!

There's fire in his belly, and logic in his argument. With all that said I don't 100% agree with him.

I say it's waaaaaaay too early to judge Ferry's draftees. One year ago we were raving about Jenkins. 6 months ago the league was abuzz over Dennis. Three months ago we thought we had a young diamond in the rough in Mike Scott.

The perception may have changed on these players, but they have not. We saw potential in them, now we just need to show some patience as they grow.

But I do concur that Ferry is simply playing it by ear, adjusting his plan as the situation changes. I have no idea what his mandate is, or when he expects things to come together for us. While none of his moves have been devastating, neither have they been brilliant.

Dumping JJ for peanuts....meh.
Dumping Marvin for Devin....meh.
Letting Josh walk away for nothing, but replacing him with 2 years of Millsap....meh.

As Will Smith once put it...he's just fishin' in the dark, son. Waiting for a bite. Patience is a virtue, and I'm willing to give him a bit more time before we make judgment on his moves thus far.

(FYI, if I had my way, I'd dump everyone from the team except Horford and Schroeder and see what I could acquire for the rest. Teague, Millsap, Korver could get us some solid pieces for the future. Remember, sell stocks at their highest value, not when they've topped out and are falling fast. I don't see any of these players ever being more valuable than they are today.)

Posted: **Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:09 pm**

diesel50 wrote:You believe that Ferry has a plan? I don't think it's a clear one. Just look at how he has signed contracts. He signs transitional players with no trade. He signed Long term specialist with no championship quality team. He drafts players with potential and has a coach that won't play them. Especially when Horf is down. It's like getting on a treadmill and running really hard. You're working out but you're really not going anywhere.

I don't think there's a great deal of difference between freeing up money for a major free agent and waiting for a Harden situation. In both cases, you're looking to add a top talent because you had the freedom to jump when other teams didn't have that freedom. I don't think Ferry has had a change of plans; it's one plan: available cap space.

RealGM

Danny Ferry vs. Billy Knight vs. Pete Babcock.

Danny Ferry vs. Billy Knight vs. Pete Babcock.

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Re: Danny Ferry vs. Billy Knight vs. Pete Babcock.

Re: Danny Ferry vs. Billy Knight vs. Pete Babcock.

Re: Danny Ferry vs. Billy Knight vs. Pete Babcock.

Re: Danny Ferry vs. Billy Knight vs. Pete Babcock.

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Re: Danny Ferry vs. Billy Knight vs. Pete Babcock.

Re: Danny Ferry vs. Billy Knight vs. Pete Babcock.

Re: Danny Ferry vs. Billy Knight vs. Pete Babcock.

Re: Danny Ferry vs. Billy Knight vs. Pete Babcock.

Re: Danny Ferry vs. Billy Knight vs. Pete Babcock.