Danny Ferry's Joe Johnson

[diesel50]

I was thinking about our discussion on BK vs. DF vs. PB.... and thinking that each guy had a signature trade or acquisition early in their career... For Babcock it was Mookie. For BK, it was Joe Johnson. If you look at the circumstances of both guys, both guys had shown some success but both guys sat in the shadow of another player who would be great. For Mookie, he was in Kenny Anderson's shadow. For Joe Johnson, he was in Amare and Nash's shadow. That being in the shadows made both players want to leave their current situation. Now, there's a little parallel with Millsap if you consider that he was in Jefferson's shadow but you can't be in Jefferson's shadow if all you do is lose.
So upon getting strong sleep on this, I have come up with a NEW target for Danny Ferry that will legitimize his GMship here in Atlanta and will make people forget about his stint in Cleveland and the awkward moves he has made thus far...
The New Target should be:

KLAY Thompson.

If you think about it, Klay is in the exact same situation as Joe Johnson was in . He's an important cog in the GS Warrior machine but most people look at them as say.... Stephen Curry. Just like Joe, Klay is shooting a sky high 3pt%. Just like Joe, Klay is in the rumor mill when he shouldn't be. Klay could be that guy who mixes with this Hawks team and make us contenders.

"His mama named him Klay, I'm going to call him Klay."

[theatlfan]

Interesting topic... Haven't seen it put quite this way.

Now, Klay Thompson would be a very solid choice - no doubts there. But moreso than pigeonholing ourselves into one guy, we should just always be looking for this guy. Say if we land Klay to be our next JJ or Mookie, then I still want someone else to be our Smitty.

For giggles, here are two other names that pop to my mind who seem to fit the criteria given:
Chandler Parsons, HOU: D12 and Harden cast a long shadow over the former 2nd round pick, but he has a nice set of physical tools and some off the charts efficiency #'s that would make one think he could continue to thrive if he spread his wings elsewhere.
Lance Stephenson, IND (RFA): It's hard for young players to emerge on good teams but Stephenson has done precisely that. Seemingly everyone's under the radar pick to take his game to the next level after his performance last year and in the playoffs. IND will fight tooth and nail to keep him.
Jimmy Butler, CHI: Maybe he doesn't have the superstar potential of the other two but if it's the rest of the requirements pretty well being overshadowed by the bigs and Rose. Still, he's proven to be a solid shooter and lockdown defender when healthy and it wouldn't surprise me if there was a little more in the tank there.

[diesel50]

I notice the fuss that is made about Stephenson...some of which is availability because a small market team with Large contracts maynot spend to keep him. However,I don't think he has the upside of Klay. I would give a great deal for Klay.

[Rip2137]

If anything, I think Steph makes Klay look better than he is. The more I watch him, the more I am amazed at how low his BBIQ is. He has the tools to be a great shooter. I honestly think if you took out the "really?" shots he would be over 50% for the season.

He constantly reaches on D and doesn't move his feet, he is a horrible passer....I just don't see the guy being THE GUY. Joe was a lockdown defender for Phoenix, the back up pointguard that showed great playmaking ability to go along with his great shooting ability. Klay can shoot. that's...about...it...

Lance Stevenson, to me, is what JR Smith was last year. He is playing lights out this year and it looks like he finally gets it, but I would be afraid to pay him a lot of money because he was/is a complete knucklehead on(and sometimes off) the court every year before this one and showed flashes, but he will just as quickly shoot you out of a game with low percentage shots.

I think every great GM has that "moment" but I don't think either of these guys.

[diesel50]

If it were possible to get Klay and have some semblence of low post scoring... I don't mind that he's "not the guy". Sap or Horf could be the guy. Teague could be the guy. Korver could be the guy. What I'm saying is that a guy who shoots a high percentage like his and a guy who shoots like Korver... playing on the same team with a legit low post threat = trouble. I will say this also... reaching on defense is a crime against nature!!! He would have to pick his defense up.
It must be trouble though because GS has floated some trade rumors with him and Barnes in it. Maybe they believe that getting Lynch and Crawford makes him expendable (a little). IF GS does flip him by the deadline, I hope that we would be in the running.

[Jamaaliver]

Well thought out post, diesel. These topics are thought-provoking in a way we haven't seen much around here in a while.

Klay Thompson could indeed be a worthwhile target for the future. In that same vein of thinking might I suggest a similar caliber of player who would be exponentially easier to acquire:

Dion Waiters. The kid has game. He is raw and unproven. But we've seen him put up big numbers against our Hawks. Right now his situation is not ideal. A 2nd year player already on his second head coach. And, let's face it Mike Brown isn't exactly known for his offensive game planning or player development. He is currently in the shadow of back court mate Kyrie Irving. Neither of these young people knows how to play basketball yet. At least not NBA, team basketball. And on top of that, their games do not mesh well. (CLE was incredibly dumb to pass on Oladipo with the #1 pick.)

Bud would be the perfect mentor for a young SG who can create his own shot, hit open threes and finish on the fast break. Long term, he'd fit great next to a pass first PG like Dennis Schroeder. DWaiters is similar to Klay Thompson, though still raw and not nearly as established.

My ideal candidates to be DF's JJ:

Klay Thompson
Dion Waiters
Lance Stephenson
Greg Monroe

Young players who have shown flashes of something special, but are still looking for the right situation to thrive in.

[Jamaaliver]

Lance Stevenson...is playing lights out this year and it looks like he finally gets it, but I would be afraid to pay him a lot of money because he was/is a complete knucklehead on(and sometimes off) the court every year before this one and showed flashes, but he will just as quickly shoot you out of a game with low percentage shots.

RIP you still sleeping on these Pacers? The past couple of season you've been hesitant to believe that they were an elite team or worthy of the praise they've gotten.

You mentioned a few months ago that Atlanta at full strength was better than Indy. Still feel that way?

[azuresou1]

My question would be why we should try to acquire these JJ-tier players when we just came off a painful, stagnant stretch of mediocrity.

Superstar or bust.

[diesel50]

My question would be why we should try to acquire these JJ-tier players when we just came off a painful, stagnant stretch of mediocrity.

Superstar or bust.

Was it really painful because of Joe? Think of what we had:
Bibby... good guy but couldn't run the PG for us.
Smoove...great talent but too in love with the outside shot.
Marvin.... Worst draft in the history of the franchise and worst resigning in the history of the franchise.
The Smoove-Horf logjam...
AND
Joe's contract.

The year we finally brought a talented player to the team (Crawford) we saw great results. Everybody was a fan during the Chicago Series. That wasn't painful.

Now, we have the opportunity to take some of the good (a Joe like player) and not have all that other stuff with a better coach.

[Jamaaliver]

My question would be why we should try to acquire these JJ-tier players when we just came off a painful, stagnant stretch of mediocrity.

Superstar or bust.

Fair question, Mike. I think the answer is that these guys would be relatively low cost acquisitions that could be high reward players. Whether they developed into superstars (unlikely) or if they simply improved enough to attract a superstar in Free Agency (possible) or developed into such highly regarded assets that we could use them in trade to acquire a superstar (best case scenario).

We've been trying to acquire a superstar on and off for the past 20 years to no avail. In the absence of a top-10 player, these could be rather practical solutions to that end.

(I still maintain that if we'd offered Teague, Smoove and a few 1st round picks to OKC for Harden back in 2012, they'd have at least had to listen. Then maybe we'd be looking at Harden here in ATL helping bring D12 home for a championship run. Imagine the best SG in the game (Harden), flanked by the best 3-pt shooter in the game (Korver) behind the best frontcourt in the world (Dwight and Horford).)

The point is, if you can't attract a top player in Free Agency, you better have the assets to acquire one should a team like Utah, Denver, Toronto, OKC, Cleveland, Orlando, Detroit, Dallas, New Orleans find it necessary to trade their stars.

I listed each of these teams, because their franchises each jettisoned a top 10 player in the last decade+. Had we the assets, we could have at least attempted a trade for Deron Williams, Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh, Harden, LBJ, T-Mac in his prime, Chauncey Billups, or Chris Paul.

[Rip2137]

Lance Stevenson...is playing lights out this year and it looks like he finally gets it, but I would be afraid to pay him a lot of money because he was/is a complete knucklehead on(and sometimes off) the court every year before this one and showed flashes, but he will just as quickly shoot you out of a game with low percentage shots.

RIP you still sleeping on these Pacers? The past couple of season you've been hesitant to believe that they were an elite team or worthy of the praise they've gotten.

You mentioned a few months ago that Atlanta at full strength was better than Indy. Still feel that way?

I simply stated that with a healthy Pachulia and Lou I think they would have beaten them in the first round last year. And since Lou was playing at arguably allstar consideration level when he went down and, as you said, Sheldon Mack played like hot garbage last year, I find it hard to believe you can't see my point there when we had to trot out Sheldon Mack and Johan Petro instead of Zaza and Lou. And we still took it to 6 games.

I didn't buy their record 2 years ago, but they are a legit team. But Lance Stevenson still, before this year, was a guy that would shoot you out of games and we aren't THAT far removed from him being arrested for groping a girl in high school then being arrested again for shoving his girlfriend down the stairs. I just wouldn't give him a lot of money. I could be wrong and he could have turned the corner late last year and into this one.

[Rip2137]

Our ability to attract a superstar is a oft repeated, ridiculous thing.

WHO has been able to attract a superstar in free agency in the last 10 years? Houston, Miami and New York(if you consider Amare a superstar). 3 teams(I'm sure someone will pull another one out of their hat, but I seriously can't name another). Back in the day when you could offer crazy contracts like the ones Grant Hill, Tmac, Juan Howard, and others got, sure you might be able to pull a guy, but those days are long gone.

Everyone else trades for them or drafts them. For some reason, we get mocked for our lack of ability to attract a superstar when no one else can either.

And Jamal, you keep assuming that we DIDN'T try and trade for those guys. The sad thing is, we have been a middle of the pack team so our draft picks are essentially worthless, and the only guys making the money to make those trades work either had contracts no one wanted or weren't that good(mostly bad contracts). Of all those guys that got moved, which was a package that we would have offered that was better than what they got?

And giving up Teague, Smith and multiple draft picks for Harden(who you still had to try and resign) is a HORRID, HORRID trade when not working with the benefit of hindsight.

[Jamaaliver]

And giving up Teague, Smith and multiple draft picks for Harden(who you still had to try and resign) is a HORRID, HORRID trade when not working with the benefit of hindsight.

Oh, no doubt. But that's my point. We had assets in the past, but refused to use them in trade often because we overvalued their worth. As a result we often held on to players too long.

I simply stated that with a healthy Pachulia and Lou I think they would have beaten them in the first round last year. And since Lou was playing at arguably allstar consideration level when he went down and, as you said, Sheldon Mack played like hot garbage last year, I find it hard to believe you can't see my point there when we had to trot out Sheldon Mack and Johan Petro instead of Zaza and Lou. And we still took it to 6 games.

Perhaps, but I viewed our playoff loss last year as a failure in coaching, roster construction and player deficiency.

(Korver on Paul George? Devin at starting SG? Josh Smith shooting jumper after jumper to no avail?) I don't know if a backup Center and SG being available changes our fortunes against the 2nd best team in the East.

And Jamal, you keep assuming that we DIDN'T try and trade for those guys.

We were rumored to be in talks for a few players over the years, but our ownership usually backed out at the last minute. Presumably because we were trying to sell the team and didn't want to risk alienating the fanbase or taking a step back in the short-term. Trying to land a top player, but failing, for 20+ years does not warrant a pass in my book. Especially when we skimped on an established coach for the last 13 years.

FYI, I've kept my ear to the ground and also (pre-Ferry) had a couple of contacts within the Hawks org for years; we never seriously considered breaking up our core for Deron Williams. That one I can confirm.

And in the mid-2000s, we were flush with lottery picks. Most of which never panned out to very much (Childress, Acie Law, Sheldon). Thus my hesitation to depend on the draft in a rebuild.

Also, it's Jamaal. I keep thinking you're referring to Jamal Crawford when you type my name out.

[parson]

I do not agree that we should focus on Klay Thompson, and Joe Johnson perfectly demonstrates why not. If we commit a max salary (and that's what we're talking about here) to a Shooting Guard, we're capped out and incapable of improving anywhere else. That means we must spend our money on a player who can carry the team, at least at times. From Joe, we learned that a tall, strong, great-defending, great-passing, super-shooting SG, one who can go one-on-one, has a good attitude and is a good teammate ... is not enough.

Spend that money on a big man or a great PG.

[diesel50]

I do not agree that we should focus on Klay Thompson, and Joe Johnson perfectly demonstrates why not. If we commit a max salary (and that's what we're talking about here) to a Shooting Guard, we're capped out and incapable of improving anywhere else. That means we must spend our money on a player who can carry the team, at least at times. From Joe, we learned that a tall, strong, great-defending, great-passing, super-shooting SG, one who can go one-on-one, has a good attitude and is a good teammate ... is not enough.

Spend that money on a big man or a great PG.

No doubt do this in addition to a big. However, we have to get what we need in the frontcourt but right now, our swing position has the strongest need. Sure.. Draft a Hood or a Grant or a Patterson... However, Klay is proven. He's the guy who could be the lead for this team. Remember, we're in good contract position... Sap, Brand and DMC comes off next year. That's about 17 Million right there. I forgot about Lou. None of our players are so valuable that they should come before us getting stars!!! If we got rid of everything and we started over with Klay, Draft Pick, Teague, and Sap with enough money to make a play for a good big... then that's great.
I want to keep Korver, but even Korver has a trade point.

This team's fanbase lacks the thinking that sometimes, you have transitional players.

[parson]

This team's fanbase lacks the thinking that sometimes, you have transitional players.

Max salary SGs PRECLUDE transitions. The moment we commit our cap space, we're stymied.

Please tell me how Klay Thompson is better than Joe Johnson.

[diesel50]

This team's fanbase lacks the thinking that sometimes, you have transitional players.

Max salary SGs PRECLUDE transitions. The moment we commit our cap space, we're stymied.

Please tell me how Klay Thompson is better than Joe Johnson.

That's the wrong way to look at it. You should be asking: " how is our team better than the teams that Joe played on". So let me tell you... No Smoove, No Marvin wasting precious space. We have Sap who is better than Smoove in the team game. We have better coaching. We have better PG play. We have a Shooter (Kyle Korver) who will keep defenses honest. We have project players like Bebe, Dennis, and whoever we get out of this draft who will give us a definite future. Hopefully, we have a GM who won't go SF crazy everytime he gets to pick. As far as the comparable to Joe Johnson, Young Joe was definitely better. However, we're not committing 121 Million to Klay either. Klay is a player who can shoot who will fit with what we need on this team. Just like San Antonio, we will be a spread the floor with Shooters and make room for the big kind of team and Also open the lane for our drivers.

The thing is that we can't become too worried about spending money. Capspace never suits up... Our FA record is not good. Having flexibility in Atlanta is about as good as A Rich American on a distant planet... Our money doesn't mean jack. What we do need though are players who play well enough that other FAs want to be a part of what we are building.

[parson]

With SAC's GM talking Klay Thompson up, I think we're talking about a max salary offer just to get into the room to beg him to consider us. And we're still dancing around the fact that our cap space would be eaten away after that.

I agreed with breaking the bank for Howard and/or Paul. Committing everything for a SG is crazy to me. And you still cannot tell me that Thompson is worth it by being better than Joe was.

[azuresou1]

I really, really like Klay Thompson, but he is not a max player, and anyone who signs him to a max deal (even his, which caps at $14M or so, I believe) is going to get burned.

If you do not have a superstar and want to win it all, you need to put together a team where players outproduce their value.

[diesel50]

I really, really like Klay Thompson, but he is not a max player, and anyone who signs him to a max deal (even his, which caps at $14M or so, I believe) is going to get burned.

If you do not have a superstar and want to win it all, you need to put together a team where players outproduce their value.

His defense is not good enough for him to be a 14M player. No team will give him that. I would give him 9-11 Per though.