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I certainly don't, beyond seeing how our young guys develop.

It's baffling to me that some posters on this board bemoan our losing streak and use that as 'evidence' that we're a poorly run franchise. News flash: if the Heat lost LeBron for the season and had recurring injuries to Wade and Bosh they'd be losing games left and right too.

But please, continue to use an injury-plagued season as whining fodder. On second thought, don't and we'll all be for the better.

A minor crap for me.

[Cue sunshine and inspirational music]

Winners play for pride.

[End]

Also, these guys are playing for money - future money - and can't afford to let down. As I've said before, look at the 6ers: they're a mess. Now look at the pitiful trade values they just demonstrated. Those players will never earn the salaries they could have; GMs look at a player's work, after all.

Finally, we fans care - that's why we're called fan-atics. Besides, I've enjoyed this year more than any I have for a while. We're finally playing real basketball. We just watched a team like us, the Bulls, playing for pride, playing the right way. We fought them on equal ground and, if not for favorable calls for them, we would have beaten them.

We watch for more than just a trophy.

I don't see a poll or fully understand the thread.

Ummm...Danny Ferry doesn't seem to be concerned with this season. The construction of the team was flawed, having so many unproven players in the front court.

The young players still aren't getting much PT. This particularly pertains to Dennis, but includes JJ2, Cunningham, Nunnally, Pittman. And now we're running poor Elton Brand into the ground.

Bud seems to be playing to win. Ferry seems to be standing pat, biding time.

Again, if Ferry is more focused on the future than the present, why should i care about the present.

If we could at least get a substantive look at the young'ns I'd at least be curious and hopeful.

Beyond that, I blame Ferry for the AL injury. The lack of a reliable backup option on the bench. The limited skills of our wings. And his inactivity in trade. (Selling or buying.)

azuresou1 wrote:I certainly don't, beyond seeing how our young guys develop.

It's baffling to me that some posters on this board bemoan our losing streak and use that as 'evidence' that we're a poorly run franchise. News flash: if the Heat lost LeBron for the season and had recurring injuries to Wade and Bosh they'd be losing games left and right too.

But please, continue to use an injury-plagued season as whining fodder. On second thought, don't and we'll all be for the better.

So now... Horford = Lebron??

We were not a great franchise before Horf went down. We beat the teams we supposed to had beat. The fact of the matter is that we're now in the harder part of our schedule. Hell, I wish we could always play the Knicks Cavs, Lakers, Piston, and Kings. If that were our schedule, we'd be at least .900. However, that's not the case.
Going foward, there are only about 6 games that we should win. It's not because of the injuries, it's because of the level of the competition. Before he was injured, we were still losing to teams that was better than us. That's while we were all healthy. That's what determines a championship team. Can you beat teams better than you? We couldn't. We were destined to be at or below .500. Now, it's just amplified. Guys got jacked cause we didn't get beat too badly by ____________ fill in the blank. Yeah, we were competitive against ___________ fill in the blank... before they beat us. That changes in the playoffs. It becomes 0-4... gone fishing with Kenny Smith.

Ferry has to build this team right. Not continue to have us falling for fool's gold.

diesel50 wrote:

azuresou1 wrote:I certainly don't, beyond seeing how our young guys develop.

It's baffling to me that some posters on this board bemoan our losing streak and use that as 'evidence' that we're a poorly run franchise. News flash: if the Heat lost LeBron for the season and had recurring injuries to Wade and Bosh they'd be losing games left and right too.

But please, continue to use an injury-plagued season as whining fodder. On second thought, don't and we'll all be for the better.

So now... Horford = Lebron??

We were not a great franchise before Horf went down. We beat the teams we supposed to had beat. The fact of the matter is that we're now in the harder part of our schedule. Hell, I wish we could always play the Knicks Cavs, Lakers, Piston, and Kings. If that were our schedule, we'd be at least .900. However, that's not the case.
Going foward, there are only about 6 games that we should win. It's not because of the injuries, it's because of the level of the competition. Before he was injured, we were still losing to teams that was better than us. That's while we were all healthy. That's what determines a championship team. Can you beat teams better than you? We couldn't. We were destined to be at or below .500. Now, it's just amplified. Guys got jacked cause we didn't get beat too badly by ____________ fill in the blank. Yeah, we were competitive against ___________ fill in the blank... before they beat us. That changes in the playoffs. It becomes 0-4... gone fishing with Kenny Smith.

Ferry has to build this team right. Not continue to have us falling for fool's gold.

All I see is hater tier bull.

We only beat teams we were supposed to beat? No ****. And with Horford down, that level goes down.

Actually I do for 2 reasons:

seing young developping

hoping that we could fall deep in the Lottery...

I agree, and even if I don't like it, I think we should tank, because there will certainly no other season with lots of injuries like that.

DET and CLE can pass us, especially CLE, and DEN is only one L behind ATL
It would put us at the 10th pick, with a chance at the lottery.

diesel50 wrote:

azuresou1 wrote:...if the Heat lost LeBron for the season and had recurring injuries to Wade and Bosh they'd be losing games left and right too

So now... Horford = Lebron??

Sorry, but it's not what he said.
It's only that Al is our best players, and we also lost other players in too much games.

azuresou1 wrote:
All I see is hater tier bull.

We only beat teams we were supposed to beat? No ****. And with Horford down, that level goes down.

Please... Show me the record of the Hawks against Above .500 teams before Horford went down..

Let's not confuse Hate with Facts.

diesel50 wrote:

azuresou1 wrote:
All I see is hater tier bull.

We only beat teams we were supposed to beat? No ****. And with Horford down, that level goes down.

Please... Show me the record of the Hawks against Above .500 teams before Horford went down..

Let's not confuse Hate with Facts.

Since nobody got back to me... I thought I would put it on the record for all to see the facts.

Against .500 or better teams before Horf went down, we were (4-7. 36%)

1 Wed, Oct 30, 2013
Box Score
@ Dallas Mavericks
L 109 118 0 1 L 1
2 Fri, Nov 1, 2013
Box Score
Toronto Raptors
W 102 95 1 1 W 1
11 Tue, Nov 19, 2013
Box Score
@ Miami Heat
L 88 104 6 5 L 1
16 Wed, Nov 27, 2013
Box Score
@ Houston Rockets
L 84 113 8 8 L 3
17 Fri, Nov 29, 2013
Box Score
Dallas Mavericks
W 88 87 9 8 W 1
18 Sat, Nov 30, 2013
Box Score
@ Washington Wizards
L 101 108 9 9 L 1
19 Mon, Dec 2, 2013
Box Score
@ San Antonio Spurs
L 100 102 9 10 L 2
20 Wed, Dec 4, 2013
Box Score
Los Angeles Clippers
W 107 97 10 10 W 1
22 Tue, Dec 10, 2013
Box Score
Oklahoma City Thunder
L 92 101 11 11 L 1
23 Fri, Dec 13, 2013
Box Score
Washington Wizards
W OT 101 99 12 11 W 1
28 Mon, Dec 23, 2013
Box Score
@ Miami Heat
L OT 119 121 15 13 L 1


4 wins in 11 games with Horford. That sums up where we really are against playoff quality teams.

D21 wrote:I agree, and even if I don't like it, I think we should tank, because there will certainly no other season with lots of injuries like that.

DET and CLE can pass us, especially CLE, and DEN is only one L behind ATL
It would put us at the 10th pick, with a chance at the lottery.

diesel50 wrote:

azuresou1 wrote:...if the Heat lost LeBron for the season and had recurring injuries to Wade and Bosh they'd be losing games left and right too

So now... Horford = Lebron??

Sorry, but it's not what he said.
It's only that Al is our best players, and we also lost other players in too much games.

Yep and remember teams sitting at 8 and 9 have jumped all the way up to win the lottery the past 6-7 years. Getting a better lottery seeding is just a better bet than trying to beat Indiana or Miami in a 7 game series without Al.

Yes, and that 4-7 against +.500 teams makes us a solid playoff team. If we were at .500 or above against teams like Miami, OKC, and SAS, then we'd be having discussions about contending. I think you overestimate the vs.500 records of middling playoff teams.

Without Horford we lose games left and right, just as is the case with any team that loses their best player.

Here are the records vs. 500 teams of playoff teams, which I've lumped by contending status and current record (http://espn.go.com/nba/standings/_/type/expanded)

CONTENDERS
Indy: 14-9
OKC: 22-10
San Antonio: 19-13
Miami: 18-5
Portland: 16-15
LAC: 20-13
Houston: 19-13

SOLID TEAM
GSW: 13-19
Phoenix: 12-17
Dallas: 13-18
Toronto: 12-17
Chicago: 10-15
Washington: 9-18

4-7, while not great, prorated to right above Washington, which would make us 5th seed, and around 32-26 record. This is quite good for a team that is rebuilding on the fly for a team that just two seasons ago was looking at paying Jarvin Williamson $30 million this season and was steadily declining.

Bonus: people on Reddit all praising Danny Ferry's rebuilding efforts:

http://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1z ... d_he_pull/

What is Ferry's endgame and how does he get there?

The Hawks had more or less topped out as a mid-40s to low-50s win team in the regular season and a 1st or 2nd round exit in the playoffs for the last several years. Even with a healthy Horford, the team looked to be at that level again.

I imagine Ferry's job is to make them something significantly better-- a real title contender on or near the Indiana/Miami level that win close to 60 games in the regular season and can get deep into the playoffs. So, how is Ferry going to make the Hawks an whole level better? Can he draft an elite player? Does he have the asset to trade for one? Can he convince an elite guy to sign as a FA with ATL?

GTO wrote:What is Ferry's endgame and how does he get there?

The Hawks had more or less topped out as a mid-40s to low-50s win team in the regular season and a 1st or 2nd round exit in the playoffs for the last several years. Even with a healthy Horford, the team looked to be at that level again.

I imagine Ferry's job is to make them something significantly better-- a real title contender on or near the Indiana/Miami level that win close to 60 games in the regular season and can get deep into the playoffs. So, how is Ferry going to make the Hawks an whole level better? Can he draft an elite player? Does he have the asset to trade for one? Can he convince an elite guy to sign as a FA with ATL?

GTO.. stop exposing the truth to people.. You are throwing bricks into the Ferry Glass dream house.

The truth is that there is no real endgame here. We are what we are... Ferry is going to put on the dog and pony show and show that he can use Analytics to help him maximize team talent with a shoestring budget.. but as far as moving the needle from where we were to championship contender, it's not going to happen unless David Stern's last wish that we win the lottery comes true. Hawks fans need to know thyself.
When you know yourself here's the ugly truth:

1. We are not good at bringing in quality FAs.
2. Being in the middle of the draft is Kryptonite to every Hawks GM including Ferry.
3. We have to be masters of trade in order to win and that means that we have to be masters of contract negotiations.

I will give Ferry credit in that he signed Korver, Sap, and DMC. All have good value as trade pieces. However, while we praised Ferry for signing them to short deals, we needed to realize that if those deals got into the last year, we would have a real hard time convincing a team to take them (Sap and DMC) in a trade. Lou Williams is not tradable. So that leaves us looking at Teague and Horford. Ferry's not going to move Horford and he's not going to get good value back for Teague.
So in essence, we will be back with the same guys next year.

So what's a Hawks fan to do... Talk up our last draft picks... Bebe and Dennis as if they are world beaters (when the evidence shows that they are not) and hope that Ferry can swing a deal with Teague. That is a Pete Babcock, knee Jerk Reaction. Babcock has trained this franchise well!!

You don't get to endgame until you give yourself the opportunity to reach endgame. Two seasons ago when we were locked in to Joe/Marvin/Josh/Al, we were LOCKED in to mediocrity.

Ferry managed to take a sinking ship situation and turn that into a team that was 3rd seed in the East prior to injuries, has valuable trade assets, has cap space, has talented young players, and has our own picks. We have literally gone from the WORST place an NBA team can be (trapped in mediocrity hell) to the next-best place to being a top contender.

But please, continue to post more conspired garbage about how Ferry is the same as a Pete Babcock.

azuresou1 wrote:Ferry managed to take a sinking ship situation and turn that into a team that was 3rd seed in the East prior to injuries, has valuable trade assets, has cap space, has talented young players, and has our own picks. We have literally gone from the WORST place an NBA team can be (trapped in mediocrity hell) to the next-best place to being a top contender.

I wouldn't exactly say the Hawks were a sinking ship. More like stuck oarless with no wind in the middle of the ocean without food or supplies. Not a great place to be, but in no immediate danger of either.

And the worst place to be is probably closer to the Knicks today than the 2011 Hawks.
That team is locked into being terrible with no capspace and no draft pick. And whether they re-sign their best player (an All Star) to a max contract or let him leave, they'll still be capped out. Their GM is under fire. (In his first year) Their Head Coach in under fire. (In his 2nd year) Their owner is delusional. (He thought this was a champinship caliber roster.)

Ironically, we were (back in 2011) where we'd hoped to be back in 2007/2008. Back then we were a team filled with young lottery picks desperate to make the playoffs. The same place Washington/Cleveland/Detroit find themselves now.

We've always been irrelevant. Now, we're below average and irrelevant.

There was regression (sinking) though. For the first time ever the team paid the luxury tax and marched into a 1st round series with homecourt advantage against an aging Celtics team that featured games that both Allen and Rondo missed yet were still sent packing in 6 games. This was a team that had made 2nd round appearances the norm and even peaked the year before yet here they were bowing out in the 1st round.

The same regression that the Knicks are facing now happened to the Hawks. The year before the sky seemed like the limit, competitive 2nd round appearance so likely ECF next but instead it was an overpaid 1st round exit/lotto team. Folks are making the same suggestions in the NY papers to the Knicks that instead of re-upping Melo and attempting any more desperation moves to appease him that they should just tear the whole thing down.

MaceCase wrote:There was regression (sinking) though. For the first time ever the team paid the luxury tax and marched into a 1st round series with homecourt advantage against an aging Celtics team that featured games that both Allen and Rondo missed yet were still sent packing in 6 games. This was a team that had made 2nd round appearances the norm and even peaked the year before yet here they were bowing out in the 1st round.

The same regression that the Knicks are facing now happened to the Hawks. The year before the sky seemed like the limit, competitive 2nd round appearance so likely ECF next but instead it was an overpaid 1st round exit/lotto team. Folks are making the same suggestions in the NY papers to the Knicks that instead of re-upping Melo and attempting any more desperation moves to appease him that they should just tear the whole thing down.

If you're going to tell the story, tell the whole story. Horf was coming off of injury about game 4... and then somebody "touched" Smoove in game 2 and he didn't want to play anymore.

Still. With what we had... you have to convert it into talent....OR.... TANK. Ferry seem to not understand that part of how this works. Because he got nothing but capspace in trade (something that is really wasted in Atlanta) and he refused the idea of tanking. Thank Goodness that the basketball gods tanked this season for us.

Tanking doesnt work. Tanking isnt the answer.

DRAFT PICKS and talent development works.