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No one can figure these guys out, which means Danny Ferry is doing his thing. They have cap flexibility and a good roster, though they dangled Al Horford at last year’s trade deadline in a very targeted fashion, per sources around the league.

http://grantland.com/features/the-courtship-of-lance-stephenson/#fn-1

A small blurb that could have big repercussions going forward. I'm not sure what 'a very targeted fashion' means exactly. But actively seeking to trade Horford completely changes the approach most of us have been taking. I imagine we'd either get back a young player or draft picks in exchange, which would put us in full-on rebuild mode.

Do we believe AL is still on the block this summer?
Was this part of a move to tank the season when we were in our doldrums? (Remember, Teague was rumored to be in trade talks as well in February.)
If AL is tradeable, then everyone on the roster really is fair game also, right?

Thoughts?
Predictions?

I really am speechless and flabbergasted at this revelation. Though it makes complete sense from a GM perspective.

I'm thinking Horford is due for an extension next summer. If Horford's camp has indicated he might not be willing to sign an extension, DF has no choice but to shop him before he gets to the last year of his contract next summer.

There've been a number of warning signs since Ferry took over. And with Horford's second major injury in as many years keeping him on the sidelines for extended time, it would be foolish not to at least see what type of value he could bring.

But man, the thought of a Hawks team without Horford makes me sad. Hopefully, we at least get a top young prospect to groom.

'In a targeted fashion' usually means asking for a specific asset or set of assets in return e.g. "We'll send you Horford in exchange for DeMarcus and the 2017 1st"

I wouldn't read too much into it. A good GM should always be seeing what the value of his assets is and aiming up. I'm sure Sam Presti fields a few calls every week asking for Durant.

There is a strong possibility that Ferry lacks confidence in resigning AL so hes testing the trade market. Im sure the whole competitive rebuild direction doesnt really appeal to AL and he wouldnt want to waste his last good years on a team with no clear direction of where they want to go. I remember during the 2013 free agency he was really worried about what was Ferry doing and feared that we were going in rebuild mode.

Or maybe he was looking for a fix for the season. We were getting demolished around all star break

An extension next summer? Horford is on the books for two more years ain't he?

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Al would never even consider signing an extension regardless because rules govern that he'd get less years and money than if he just waited to be a free agent.

Does Al really have alot of value at this point or at the trade deadline last year? Doesn't make sense to me until he gets back on the court and proves his value.
I will say he's now been a non-factor in 2 playoffs for us. I recall where we were always a better team with Zaza, but he couldn't make it through a full season.

Time to get find a replacement as we have depth at the 4. When you have depth, you need to fill your other voids.

70Ft billboard of Paul Millsap over 85
No Al Horford Jersey with the new Hawks Pacman logo...........

Als as good as gone

MaceCase wrote:Al would never even consider signing an extension regardless because rules govern that he'd get less years and money than if he just waited to be a free agent.

While this is technically true, this applies primarily to players expecting to draw a max contract. But with AL approaching 30 and having missed the bulk of two seasons due to injury...does anyone expect AL Horford to be a max free-agent.

It's worth noting that Josh Smith took a similar approach with mixed results. He ended up on a worst team making less annually than what we offered. Though he at least got an extra year of guaranteed money.

Jamaaliver wrote:

MaceCase wrote:Al would never even consider signing an extension regardless because rules govern that he'd get less years and money than if he just waited to be a free agent.

While this is technically true, this applies primarily to players expecting to draw a max contract. But with AL approaching 30 and having missed the bulk of two seasons due to injury...does anyone expect AL Horford to be a max free-agent.

It's worth noting that Josh Smith took a similar approach with mixed results. He ended up on a worst team making less annually than what we offered. Though he at least got an extra year of guaranteed money.

No, it applies to every free agent with that many years of experience. Millsap turned down his max extension from Utah too. The amount? 3 years 25 million. He got 19 million for just 2 years from the Hawks and is likely to far exceed that 3rd year total as well when he negotiates a new deal.

Extension in these cases are only a raise from your previous salary and count the current year of your salary as a year as well. Al, even with his injury history will not limit his contract ceiling to 13 million (well below the max he could get) and with his injury situation he will most definitely not limit his guaranteed years to only 3 unless he knows for sure he won't ever recover in which case the Hawks are foolish for offering it.

I believe ferry thinks anyone on this team is trade-able so I'm not surprised .

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PandaKidd wrote:I believe ferry thinks anyone on this team is trade-able so I'm not surprised .

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I agree but I also think that Ferry knows that we are only one piece away from being legit if we have the opportunity to land the right guy. Get an elite wing and we are contenders.

I don't think Horford is moved unless he refuses an extension next offseason. Since I doubt Horford, with his age and recent injuries, will get the true max, I don't see an impediment to an extension on the basis of finance (if he gets hurt again next season he'd potentially lose money after all, so it gives him some security).

Unless you are Lebron James or Tim Duncan, everybody should be on the trading block at all times.

Tony Parker has signed a three-year, $43.3 million contract extension with the San Antonio Spurs.

Parker will earn $13.4 million in 15-16, $14.4 million in 16-17 and $15.4 million in 17-18.

Parker was set to become a free agent in 2015.

Parker is scheduled to earn $12.5 million in 14-15.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/234497/Tony-Parker-Signs-Three-Year-$45M-Extension-With-Spurs

This is the type of extension I we need to get Horford signed for next summer. The fact he's missed so much time recently works in our favor, but when healthy he has been pretty phenomenal in the regular season.

If I'm Ferry, I push hard for an extension nearly identical to this one next summer. If Horford balks or hesitates, it might be time to move him.

I think we need a big season to keep HIM interested in staying. We refuse to get a Center to play next him, we haven't had many great seasons with him here. The entire roster has changed since he first got here in 2007. We have to prove to him this team is headed somewhere.

But if he refuses the extension, that is essentially a vote of no-confidence.

We are discussing this on the Celtics forums.

Reading the replies in this thread, it might be hard to get a deal done.

Horford's injury status is the big deal-killer. If he was healthy I think the Celtics would have given up Marcus Smart and Sullinger or Olynk (perhaps more).

in 2014, without knowing his full health situation, I'd have to think that Ainge and the Celtics wouldn't give up more than something like:

Olynyk (or Sullinger)+
Brooklyn 2016 pick (top 8 protected)+
Cavs 2015 pick (top 10 protected)+
Bass+
Faverani

for

Horford +
Bazemore

Celtics fans don't over rate Jeff Green- he's reasonable value at 9 million and he's semi expiring.
In a league where Gordon Hayward and Chandler Parsons just signed $15 million dollar deals- some would argue that Green this season (and next season if he opts in) is a bargain.
Looking at the Hawks situation, you've already got Carroll so there's no real need for Green.

You're also not giving Sullinger enough credit- he's got All Star potential and that's not an exaggeration.
Look at his per 36 minute numbers and remove his three point percentages from last season and he's a stone cold paint hog- and potentially one of the best rebounders in the NBA.
His finger was broken last season and it affected his release- he's talked about this a fair bit and insists that now that his finger is healed he'll be hitting the three point shot at a decent clip.
As a Celtics fan I'd rather keep Sullinger than Olynyk because this is Sully's 3rd season-after missing half of his rookie season with back surgery. He's played 1.5 seasons in the NBA and never been in shape because of his back issues. He had to play out of position last season as center and still put up superior numbers to Taj Gibson who is 7 years older. He played the whole season last year and this current offseason was the only chance he's had since finishing college to work on his weight and fitness because he hasn't had to recover from injury/surgery.

But yeah, Sullinger's health and back issues are far less of a concern than Horford's injury worries- he managed to put up 13 points, 8 rebounds in 27.5 minutes a game, out of position against NBA starting centers, coming off major back surgery and the fitness issues that caused him.

His basketball reference projection is at 16.5 points and 10.6 rebounds per game for 2014-15.
Not saying he's the next Kevin Love but he's a might fine (technically 2nd year) player at 22 years old.

robbie84 wrote:We are discussing this on the Celtics forums.

Reading the replies in this thread, it might be hard to get a deal done.

Horford's injury status is the big deal-killer. If he was healthy I think the Celtics would have given up Marcus Smart and Sullinger or Olynk (perhaps more).

in 2014, without knowing his full health situation, I'd have to think that Ainge and the Celtics wouldn't give up more than something like:

Olynyk (or Sullinger)+
Brooklyn 2016 pick (top 8 protected)+
Cavs 2015 pick (top 10 protected)+
Bass+
Faverani

for

Horford +
Bazemore

Celtics fans don't over rate Jeff Green- he's reasonable value at 9 million and he's semi expiring.
In a league where Gordon Hayward and Chandler Parsons just signed $15 million dollar deals- some would argue that Green this season (and next season if he opts in) is a bargain.
Looking at the Hawks situation, you've already got Carroll so there's no real need for Green.

You're also not giving Sullinger enough credit- he's got All Star potential and that's not an exaggeration.
Look at his per 36 minute numbers and remove his three point percentages from last season and he's a stone cold paint hog- and potentially one of the best rebounders in the NBA.
His finger was broken last season and it affected his release- he's talked about this a fair bit and insists that now that his finger is healed he'll be hitting the three point shot at a decent clip.
As a Celtics fan I'd rather keep Sullinger than Olynyk because this is Sully's 3rd season-after missing half of his rookie season with back surgery. He's played 1.5 seasons in the NBA and never been in shape because of his back issues. He had to play out of position last season as center and still put up superior numbers to Taj Gibson who is 7 years older. He played the whole season last year and this current offseason was the only chance he's had since finishing college to work on his weight and fitness because he hasn't had to recover from injury/surgery.

But yeah, Sullinger's health and back issues are far less of a concern than Horford's injury worries- he managed to put up 13 points, 8 rebounds in 27.5 minutes a game, out of position against NBA starting centers, coming off major back surgery and the fitness issues that caused him.

His basketball reference projection is at 16.5 points and 10.6 rebounds per game for 2014-15.
Not saying he's the next Kevin Love but he's a might fine (technically 2nd year) player at 22 years old.

This doesn't come close. IMO, Horford talks don't even start until Smart is mentioned.

PMOTT3 wrote:

robbie84 wrote:We are discussing this on the Celtics forums.

Reading the replies in this thread, it might be hard to get a deal done.

Horford's injury status is the big deal-killer. If he was healthy I think the Celtics would have given up Marcus Smart and Sullinger or Olynk (perhaps more).

in 2014, without knowing his full health situation, I'd have to think that Ainge and the Celtics wouldn't give up more than something like:

Olynyk (or Sullinger)+
Brooklyn 2016 pick (top 8 protected)+
Cavs 2015 pick (top 10 protected)+
Bass+
Faverani

for

Horford +
Bazemore

Celtics fans don't over rate Jeff Green- he's reasonable value at 9 million and he's semi expiring.
In a league where Gordon Hayward and Chandler Parsons just signed $15 million dollar deals- some would argue that Green this season (and next season if he opts in) is a bargain.
Looking at the Hawks situation, you've already got Carroll so there's no real need for Green.

You're also not giving Sullinger enough credit- he's got All Star potential and that's not an exaggeration.
Look at his per 36 minute numbers and remove his three point percentages from last season and he's a stone cold paint hog- and potentially one of the best rebounders in the NBA.
His finger was broken last season and it affected his release- he's talked about this a fair bit and insists that now that his finger is healed he'll be hitting the three point shot at a decent clip.
As a Celtics fan I'd rather keep Sullinger than Olynyk because this is Sully's 3rd season-after missing half of his rookie season with back surgery. He's played 1.5 seasons in the NBA and never been in shape because of his back issues. He had to play out of position last season as center and still put up superior numbers to Taj Gibson who is 7 years older. He played the whole season last year and this current offseason was the only chance he's had since finishing college to work on his weight and fitness because he hasn't had to recover from injury/surgery.

But yeah, Sullinger's health and back issues are far less of a concern than Horford's injury worries- he managed to put up 13 points, 8 rebounds in 27.5 minutes a game, out of position against NBA starting centers, coming off major back surgery and the fitness issues that caused him.

His basketball reference projection is at 16.5 points and 10.6 rebounds per game for 2014-15.
Not saying he's the next Kevin Love but he's a might fine (technically 2nd year) player at 22 years old.

This doesn't come close. IMO, Horford talks don't even start until Smart is mentioned.

As I said, if it was 2010, before Horford's injury run at age 24/25, then Smart would've been a no brainer.
And as I said, this disagreement in value is understandable and probably unable to be overcome.

I will say that if a deal were to be done, it's much more likely to be the deal I suggested rather than your hopes for Smart. Smart is probably untouchable in a Horford deal unless Ferry went crazy and included Schroeder for James Young or Zeller. (About 10% of that ever happening, probably less than 10%).

Jamaaliver wrote:

Tony Parker has signed a three-year, $43.3 million contract extension with the San Antonio Spurs.

Parker will earn $13.4 million in 15-16, $14.4 million in 16-17 and $15.4 million in 17-18.

Parker was set to become a free agent in 2015.

Parker is scheduled to earn $12.5 million in 14-15.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/234497/Tony-Parker-Signs-Three-Year-$45M-Extension-With-Spurs

This is the type of extension we need to get Horford signed for next summer. The fact he's missed so much time recently works in our favor, but when healthy he has been pretty phenomenal in the regular season.

If I'm Ferry, I push hard for an extension nearly identical to this one next summer. If Horford balks or hesitates, it might be time to move him.

Another example of a young guy agreeing to an extension before hitting Free Agency:

The Sacramento Kings have agreed to a three-year contract extension with forward Rudy Gay, sources told ESPN.com. The contract will pay Gay $40 million and includes an opt out clause before the 2017-18 season, Yahoo! Sports first reported. Gay is currently in the final year of a contract that is paying him $19.3 million this season.

Here

Again, this is the type of extension I'm hoping we'll get Horford to agree to. AH's struggles to recapture his game this season actually help our cause for signing him to a reasonable deal less than the max. Three years, $45 million with a player option for year 3 seems like a wonderful deal for both sides.