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Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center

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Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#1 » by MaceCase » Wed Oct 1, 2014 9:02 pm

With it already being shockingly revealed that his pectorals tearing in fact had nothing to do with playing the position, Center Al Horford also reveals that he is fine with continuing to play as Center:

“The league is changing so much and we are playing at a faster pace,” Horford said. “In this offense, the way I look at it, the 4 and the 5 are very interchangeable. Paul (Millsap) and I can both play inside and out. It works here. Before it might not have worked but here it works.”

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Re: Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#2 » by simon24 » Thu Oct 2, 2014 2:44 am

I'm surprised to hear him say that. I saw an article where Coach Bud talked about Al being a stretch 5, so I expect to see him shoot more 3s like Millsap did last season.

I guess they'll be a poor man's Miami Heat
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Re: Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#3 » by PandaKidd » Thu Oct 2, 2014 7:55 pm

Horford cant shoot 3s. His shot is terrible. its a great spot up shot from 15 feet, but he will not have range from 3 pt
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Re: Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#4 » by Jamaaliver » Sun Oct 5, 2014 6:43 am

Not sure AL ever actually says the words 'I'm fine with playing Center', and the sentiment goes directly against his comments a year ago when he expressed disappointment that more help at Center wasn't brought in. (Comments that brought him great criticism among Hawk Fans.)

Either way, hope our stable of PFs are able to keep up with the ever growing legion of opposing Centers the rest of league is amassing.

Pero is set to miss some pre-season time after surgery to fix a broken nose. Muscala and Brand will (likely) be up to start the pre-season at Center.
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Re: Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#5 » by HMFFL » Sun Oct 5, 2014 1:59 pm

Next will be he wants to be traded or he intends on keeping things to himself and he leaves as a free agent.

I have a hard time believing that he's content with being a 5.
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Re: Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#6 » by MaceCase » Sun Oct 5, 2014 4:06 pm

HMFFL wrote:Next will be he wants to be traded or he intends on keeping things to himself and he leaves as a free agent.

I have a hard time believing that he's content with being a 5.

Or perhaps, and it's also stated within the article, he had skepticism of Bud's style coming in as a rookie HC but now he's confident in it both from playing and watching it in action in addition to watching the proliferation of small ball throughout the league.

Your stating his desire to be traded or walking as a free agent doesn't line up with him not being content at being a 5 either because A) Name a number of teams that can afford him and B) Of these teams that could afford him which would slate him in as a starting PF rather than C?

See when it's come to Al, people have mighty fine opinions in a vacuum but not many that hold up too well when actually given to real world applications. Certain comments are disregarded while others played up and certain injuries or circumstances are trumped up to positioning too but the facts will still remain, he'll be in a bit of a jam finding a new team if he is primarily motivated by playing PF.
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Re: Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#7 » by Jamaaliver » Sun Oct 5, 2014 4:59 pm

HMFFL wrote:Next will be he wants to be traded or he intends on keeping things to himself and he leaves as a free agent.

I have a hard time believing that he's content with being a 5.


I agree wholeheartedly. Horford has gone on record multiple times frustrated with the beating he takes guarding opposing Centers. Add in the fact we have no dependable backup, he's always played next to an undersized PF. And it does not bode well.

AH has received personal acclaim, but the team has consistently been beat up and dominated in the paint. Particularly in the post-season. Hell, the only playoff series victory the team has had in years came with AL next to a defensive Center.

Horfy even went on record asking for Hawks to draft Gorgui Dieng. Ferry passed, drafted a project Center who he then gave up on without ever playing a single game for the Hawks.

If AH doesn't sign an extension next summer...his days in a Hawks uni might be numbered.

(How ironic would it be if Horford was lured to SAS to fill in for Tim Duncan at PF?)
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Re: Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#8 » by ATL Boy » Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:35 am

Boring night so I went through the NBA Draft once again, frustrated with how our 15th overall pick rookie can't seem to even find a spot on the 12 man roster.

I'll vent some frustrations with how we took Payne over Jusuf Nurkic, who was taken with the 16th pick by Chicago and traded to Denver for Mcdermott. We needed a center, and Nurkic is someone who's a very good post defender, and a good offensive player who can hit the mid-range shot. I have a personal bias for him yes, but he's playing like a ROY candidate. I thought we had passed on him because Payne was a win now player and that we didn't want to wait on a project in Nurkic. But in the end, Payne has been in the D-League all season and is about to turn 24, while Jusuf is playing at a high level for the Nuggets and would've been an excellent backup C for us and possible starting C in a year. /rant
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Re: Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#9 » by Hawk Eye » Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:12 am

Completely agree ^^^

I'll eat crowe here and admit that I thought payne would have been in the rotation at this point in the season. I'll also admit I had no clue that nurkic would be this good. Only person that I recall saying he could be a dark hoarse ROTY candidate around the draft was Zach Lowe.
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Re: Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#10 » by Rip2137 » Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:51 pm

Who's spot would Payne or any other rookie big take? Scott? We have pointed out quite a bit how well this team is playing with Antic on the floor...

Payne isn't getting time because there is no spot in the rotation for him to get time. If we had taken Nurkic, he would be on the bench, Payne would be on a bad team putting up solid rebounding and scoring numbers and we would be wondering why we wasted a pick on Nurkic when Payne was available. I keep preaching this...you can't get impressed by rookies looking good on bad teams because part of the reason those teams are bad is because they give those rookies enough minutes to look good.
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Re: Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#11 » by SBM » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:16 pm

Payne was a bad pick. We still have missed on 3 out of 4 1st rd picks.
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Re: Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#12 » by simon24 » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:20 am

ATL Boy wrote:Boring night so I went through the NBA Draft once again, frustrated with how our 15th overall pick rookie can't seem to even find a spot on the 12 man roster.

I'll vent some frustrations with how we took Payne over Jusuf Nurkic, who was taken with the 16th pick by Chicago and traded to Denver for Mcdermott. We needed a center, and Nurkic is someone who's a very good post defender, and a good offensive player who can hit the mid-range shot. I have a personal bias for him yes, but he's playing like a ROY candidate. I thought we had passed on him because Payne was a win now player and that we didn't want to wait on a project in Nurkic. But in the end, Payne has been in the D-League all season and is about to turn 24, while Jusuf is playing at a high level for the Nuggets and would've been an excellent backup C for us and possible starting C in a year. /rant


The Hawks are built to win now so I guess when they drafted Payne and Tavares they were fine with their PF/C depth for now. By having Payne and Tavares developing, they got bigs that they can develop and learn from their All-Star bigs, that's a luxury most teams don't have. When the time comes, if Millsap/Horford/Scott/Antic were to leave, somebody like Payne could step up. Just like the Spurs, Hawks trying to build that next man up mentality vs. in past years where you'd have starters but nobody who could take over on the bench that they actually developed.
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Re: Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#13 » by ATL Boy » Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:15 pm

The thing is, Payne isn't even on the bench for the team. I'm not bashing him, and it's far too early to call him a bust, but I don't like that our rookie is spending a full season in the D-League during his age 24 season.
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Re: Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#14 » by MaceCase » Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:51 pm

So the complaint now is that instead of getting some burn and developing somewhere, you rather have him in a suit on the bench? His age doesn't matter, Bud and the Spurs have torn down and there have been articles to confirm that the old adage that players hit their prime by 28 and then it's all downhill isn't necessarily true. We have vets well past that point developing new skills and putting in career years. The team is 2nd in the entire league breaking records and opponents left and right yet some want to complain that some young guy isn't cracking the rotation of what looks like a contender? Even better, guys that look like bonafide role-players on lotto teams are being pined for and for what exactly? For the old debunked myth of Al needs to move to PF? The **** works from where I'm sitting but I guess complaining is a natural prerogative around here.
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Re: Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#15 » by PandaKidd » Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:05 pm

I think I can see where Bud goes with his player development. Think about this, what hes done with Carroll, Scott, DS in 2 years. Hes made them consistent role players. Carroll i think he really gotten the most out of.

I think the "Spurs" thinking is let the young guy play in the D League and sophomore year call them up (or junior). Jenkins is really only in his 2nd year right because of the back injury last year.

Payne wont get minutes over Millsap or Horford or at this point Pero. I think it takes time to get accustomed to the system, and they are fine letting the players develop in the D League for now.

Muscala, he looked great for the 5 minutes he played yesterday but even he sniffs the bench all season. As much as we all complained about depth at the front court, if our 2 big guys stay healthy, our bench has been outstanding.

I agree with the sentiment that picking Nurkic is a bad analogy because he doesnt have a spot on this team either. #1 team in the east, theres not much room on the rotation.
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Re: Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#16 » by theatlfan » Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:43 pm

Have to think that anyone who sees Payne's season thus far as anything but a major disappointment is sugar coating it. Coming into the draft, Payne's combination of age, experience, coaching, and physical gifts meant that he was supposed to be able to contribute to an NBA team immediately - if not as a regular rotation player, then as an energy big who could shoot a little. Even some of the points against (lung capacity was at the top of the list) has some mitigating factors for consideration (he had mono). At this point, we have to seriously reconsider the analysis. The fact that he hasn't beaten out last year's 2nd rounder for a roster spot speaks volumes here. Yeah, it's just one season and it's a bit too early to call him a bust, but the early returns are far from promising.


MaceCase wrote:So the complaint now is that instead of getting some burn and developing somewhere, you rather have him in a suit on the bench? His age doesn't matter, Bud and the Spurs have torn down and there have been articles to confirm that the old adage that players hit their prime by 28 and then it's all downhill isn't necessarily true. We have vets well past that point developing new skills and putting in career years. The team is 2nd in the entire league breaking records and opponents left and right yet some want to complain that some young guy isn't cracking the rotation of what looks like a contender? Even better, guys that look like bonafide role-players on lotto teams are being pined for and for what exactly? For the old debunked myth of Al needs to move to PF? The **** works from where I'm sitting but I guess complaining is a natural prerogative around here.
Whereas I agree that Coach Bud has gotten more from vets than they had given previously, I don't think we should discount the age factor here as easily as you suggest. There are several studies showing that the earlier in life a player is productive on the NBA level, the more you can expect out of him as time goes on. There is a little *duh* in that statement since phenoms are typically going to make the jump to the NBA faster than players who take time in developing, but this has also been shown with players selected in similar draft positions. On top of this, the peak years are typically gathered around the age 28 season and a standard bell curve fits around this mean. Just because Coach Bud is able to extract water from rock doesn't mean that we should simply throw these studies away... does it?

Still, considering Payne's age, I think we're all hoping that he will be the exception instead of the rule here. At the very least, that once he gets up to being productive, his game will, at the very least, have a much more gradual decline post-28 than his ascension to 28. Assuming that the optimists are correct and that Payne's early struggles are just a matter of integration into the league and nothing to be too concerned about, I think this is the best we can hope for.
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Re: Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#17 » by PandaKidd » Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:02 pm

So #1 seed in the east, what would you do? Bench who to call up Payne...........

Who else should we have drafted that we would bump off the starting 5 or bench..........

I am the first one to hammer on bad draft picks, but, as of now, whatever they have done has worked, and is working. Saying we wasted the Payne pick seems foolish given what we know RIGHT NOW, which is, he wont start over AH or PM, and he wont bump Mike Scott / Brand from the PF position
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Re: Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#18 » by DirtybirdGA » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:15 pm

Another recall for AP.
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Re: Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#19 » by theatlfan » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:00 pm

PandaKidd wrote:I think I can see where Bud goes with his player development. Think about this, what hes done with Carroll, Scott, DS in 2 years. Hes made them consistent role players. Carroll i think he really gotten the most out of.

I think the "Spurs" thinking is let the young guy play in the D League and sophomore year call them up (or junior). Jenkins is really only in his 2nd year right because of the back injury last year.

Payne wont get minutes over Millsap or Horford or at this point Pero. I think it takes time to get accustomed to the system, and they are fine letting the players develop in the D League for now.

Muscala, he looked great for the 5 minutes he played yesterday but even he sniffs the bench all season. As much as we all complained about depth at the front court, if our 2 big guys stay healthy, our bench has been outstanding.

I agree with the sentiment that picking Nurkic is a bad analogy because he doesnt have a spot on this team either. #1 team in the east, theres not much room on the rotation.

Can't really say I agree with those first 2 paragraphs. First, I can't see adding Carroll into the discussion as far as player development - any coach would and should treat vets differently than a rookie. Just because his style fits with one type of player doesn't mean it fits all. Not sure I agree with either Scott or Schröder being labeled as "consistent" either. Still this isn't the major point here.

The second paragraph is the one that I think needs more investigation. First, I think SAS has proven that, assuming the player can help the big club win, then the player will play with the big club. Cases in point here would include Kawhi Leonard, DeJuan Blair, George Hill, Beno Udrih, Tony Parker, and even Tim Duncan. If the player can play - regardless of whether it's in a small or big role - then Popp will put them on the court even for a championship caliber club.

Second, there is a difference between a player playing overseas and playing in the D-League. Many reasons here, but suffice to say that there's a reason that a player would go overseas even if an NBA team wants to keep / sign him whereas that doesn't happen with the D-League. With this difference, we can see that IF there is any correlation between SAS and sending a higher (40 or better) pick to the D-League for extended action in their rookie season, it's that the pick will generally not be a contributor with the big club in time. Marcus Williams and James Anderson would be the examples of picks that ended up disappointing; Cory Joseph is the other high pick who spent time in the D-League and in year 4, it's hard to say that he's much more than a deep rotation player for them and it's noteworthy that was beaten out by former PORT castoff Patty Mills for backup PG last year; the jury is out on Kyle Anderson, but his 1 game in the D-League was certainly awesome but I'm not sure I'll call that "extended action" either. Sure, many of these guys are later picks, but look again at the list in the above paragraph. SAS is always picking in this area and have had been a shining example of a team that can mine these picks for contributors while also finding castoffs such as Mills and getting good minutes from them. The biggest tangible difference between a George Hill or a Beno Udrih and a Cory Joseph or a James Anderson is that the former 2 players were able to contribute to the big club immediately and built from there whereas the latter two weren't ready for the big club and have consistently battled to just keep a roster spot ever since.

And SAS actually *has* a D League team...

PandaKidd wrote:So #1 seed in the east, what would you do? Bench who to call up Payne...........

Who else should we have drafted that we would bump off the starting 5 or bench..........

I am the first one to hammer on bad draft picks, but, as of now, whatever they have done has worked, and is working. Saying we wasted the Payne pick seems foolish given what we know RIGHT NOW, which is, he wont start over AH or PM, and he wont bump Mike Scott / Brand from the PF position
To answer your 1st ?, no one goes because a rookie can't hack it. If anyone goes, it's the rookie - either to the D-League (because there really isn't another option) or to another team in a trade.

As far as who to select, it's always a crapshoot. You never know who would fit your system and what you're looking for while being a complete miss in another system. For instance, even though SAS has made it clear that they're drafting for a contributor immediately, I'm sure there are other teams who are content to draft and develop projects and have a much higher success rate with sending players to the D-League for extended periods. For instance, Jordan Adams has out up some impressive numbers in limited minutes for MEM but would he have been as impressive with either more minutes here? Or in this system? Still, the one glaring example of a kid that would have probably broken into the rotation for us is former PeachtreeHoops favorite (Kudos to them) KJ McDaniels who would have most certainly taken Bazemore's spot as young defensive backup wing. Honestly, he could have competed with Thabo as 1st wing off the bench. Further, considering that we were so tight with roster spots that we dumped Lou, I could see us having drafted a Eurostash as a very smart move - ala Bogdanovich who is doing fairly well overseas. Nurkic and Capela were expected to stay overseas (although I don't remember why they came over...) and we probably could have convinced Caboclo as well if we wanted a high upside guy. Also, I'd be willing to bet there are some more rookies who have either been impressive in limited minutes or in practice whose game hasn't quite translated into on the court production yet who would have shown better than the kid who hasn't shown enough that we feel it is important that he gain a repertoire with the veterans for when he could take a larger role later in the year.

Honestly, I wouldn't think that Scott or Brand would have provided a large obstacle for Payne to overcome - it's just that Payne hasn't. Scott really isn't that good while Brand is more of a patchwork guy (he sits in the closet until one of the guys higher in the pecking order need a break). I agree that it's too early to think that Payne is a complete bust, but to imply that the team is so good that a rookie couldn't break into this rotation is radically overstating things. Our team is more about everyone on the roster adding a positive on court contribution over having a particularly impressive short rotation. Removing one player for someone marginally better shouldn't be too tumultuous of a change that we hesitate to pull the trigger on that.
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Re: Hawks Center Fine With Remaining as Center 

Post#20 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:09 pm

This thread should make for an excellent bump in a year or two.

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