Tim Hardaway Jr.

atlantabbq99 · Post #1 » by **atlantabbq99** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:53 am

Who knows if THJ will get traded again, but from the looks of it, Budz is very confident that Hardaway can thrive in his system.

Its clear that Budz knows his basketball and has players that he targets for his system. Budz knows the players he wants and the skill set he wants and goes by his own scouting report. Budz has been a fan of Hardaway for a while "We have had our eye on him for a while"

It took Thabo and Baz half a year to learn the system and get serious playing time. I expect Hardaway to also have a slow start while he is learning the system, but it will be interesting to see if Budz can develop Hardaway into contributing starter and all start like he did with DMC and Korver.

Post #2 » by **Jamaaliver** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:11 am

atlantabbq99 wrote:Its clear that Budz knows his basketball and has players that he targets for his system. Budz knows the players he wants and the skill set he wants and goes by his own scouting report. Budz has been a fan of Hardaway for a while "We have had our eye on him for a while"

So why didn't he just draft him back in that 2013 Draft? Back then, Ferry and Bud passed him over twice...

The issue isn't what Bud thinks he can get THJ to be in the system. The issue is VALUE. Hardaway, coming off a terrible season, simply wasn't worth the 19th pick straight up. Knicks underpaid, cleared an ill fitting piece from their roster and still got a kid they like in Grant.

Bad. Asset. Management. Bud and Wes got hussled.

But, hey. At least we saved $300,000.

Also, what the hell are we going to do with all these 2nd rounders?

MaceCase · Post #3 » by **MaceCase** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:38 am

Of course, we could just ignore the circumstances surrounding the first round selections back in 2013. That always helps when making points, when you ignore the entire context of facts. An odd tactic for one that prides themselves on their ability to dig up past events....but we've all seen that ability to be rather.....selective...but I digress.

If you believed a player to be worth the 15th or 17th pick in 2013 then why quibble over utilizing the 19th to acquire him in 2015? Surely one bad season out of two couldn't have been enough to tank his entire value especially given, once again, the circumstances surrounding him being on one of the worst rosters in the league led by a coach and GM with zero relevant experience at their respective positions.

New_Hawks_Era · Post #4 » by **New_Hawks_Era** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:56 pm

Hardaway Jr. Seems like 1 of those players that take stuff like this personal, wouldn't be surprised if he goes off for like 30 with six 3's on the Knicks next year.

Post #5 » by **Jamaaliver** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:57 pm

The first trade was really a shrewd one. Trading back four spots, picking up a couple of future 2nds and still having guys we like on the board at 19.

BRILLIANT!!!

But the value of 19 just really seems greater than THJ when his stock was considered so low.

When every pundit, opposing GM and Knick fan all agree that the trade was a lopsided loss for the Hawks, the market has essentially confirmed we overpaid for a guy we probably could have gotten a few months back for 2nd rounders...or the future Minny pick.

This isn't as atrocious as jettisoning Bebe and Lou for an expiring contract. But this doesn't really engender much confidence in Wilcox's GM acumen

Food for thought:

Is THJ really a markedly better option than John Jenkins?

New_Hawks_Era · Post #6 » by **New_Hawks_Era** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:20 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:The first trade was really a shrewd one. Trading back four spots, picking up a couple of future 2nds and still having guys we like on the board at 19.

BRILLIANT!!!

But the value of 19 just really seems greater than THJ when his stock was considered so low.

When every pundit, opposing GM and Knick all agree that the trade was a lopsided loss for the Hawks. The market has essentially confirmed we overpaid for a guy we probably could have gotten a few months back for 2nd rounders...or the future Minny pick.

This isn't as atrocious as jettisoning Bebe and Lou for an expiring contract. But this doesn't really engender much confidence in Wilcox's GM acumen

Food for thought:

Is THJ really a markedly better option than John Jenkins?

I believe so, he's bigger , his handles are better and he's actually played significant game logs/minutes in the league. Jenkins being passed back and forth to the d- league not being able to log legit minutes until your team is totally depleted is happening for a reason. These guys are around him and see what's happening daily and I think they just see a guy that ain't gonna cut it with Jenkins.

Post #7 » by **Jamaaliver** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:30 pm

Once at No. 19, the process started over for Atlanta. They weighed more possibilities and eventually settled on dealing the pick to New York for Hardaway Jr who was a player that according to Wilcox, they have been following for quite some time.

"Tim's a player we have followed for quite a while and we are excited about what he brings to us. Shooting is something we felt we always want to add. Tim's proven he can do that. Tim's proven he is an NBA player. We think he can fit in our style of play as well. We think he is a system fit for us. We are excited about it."

"When he became available to us, I think it just made sense. I'm not sure it was about whether a guy could play or not play out of the draft, but certainly we feel that Tim has an opportunity to impact the rotation next year. It also seems to be the right place for our team."

HERE

We've wanted the kid for years, apparently.

Also, this indicates Wes and Bud currently value system fit over potential or trade value. That's noteworthy.

Post #8 » by **Jamaaliver** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:52 pm

Was anyone here at the Hawks Draft Party at Philips?

How did the fans react to the trades?

Post #9 » by **Hawk Eye** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:56 pm

Wilcox came out and said that they had three goals going into the draft.

1. Gaining future assets
2. Getting shooting
3. Getting a SG

I was okay with the first trade because to me it signaled that we were able to pick up future assets and get the kid we were targeting all along at #19.

But im sorry..at some point we have to stop going after shooters and start going after TALENT. Our entire roster can shoot! But our entire roster doesnt have superior talent! Thj is considered league wide and realgm wide to not be worthy of #19. We were losers on draft night.

Post #10 » by **Jamaaliver** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:24 pm

PMOTT3 wrote:But im sorry..at some point we have to stop going after shooters and start going after TALENT. Our entire roster can shoot! But our entire roster doesnt have superior talent! Thj is considered league wide and realgm wide to not be worthy of #19. We were losers on draft night.

Yeah. I'm torn cause I do like THJ. But, I agree. #19 was worth more than this kid. We can't effectively win any trades because we have so few highly regarded players to move.

I've often wondered, if we'd had the #1 pick this year...would we have simply draft Porzingis over other higher rated talents just because he fit our system?

Would we basically pass up drafting Shaq to draft Dirk just because Dirk can hit threes?

Bud and Wes have lots of work ahead of them. But if we go into next season with the same exact core...at much higher salaries...with THJ as one of the few major upgrades

...does that get us closer to a title?

Post #11 » by **Jamaaliver** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:26 pm

What the pundits are saying:

USATODAY:

29. Atlanta Hawks: If the Hawks weren't trying to save money, their trade of the No. 15 pick for Tim Hardaway Jr. would be one dumb move. Well, it's still dumb. Grade: F.

ESPN Regular:

[The Hawks] value length and proficiency on the wings. At 6-foot-6, Hardaway has plenty of the former, but he used it to little effect in New York, where he was a defensive train wreck. He finished 94th out of 100 qualified shooting guards in defensive plus-minus. About that shooting ... He dropped from 36.3 percent in his rookie season from beyond the arc to 34.2. He didn't exactly make up for it from mid-range, nor does he get the line at a good clip. The Hawks clearly see value -- he'll earn $1.3 million in 2015-16, less than the No. 15 pick would've earned -- and potential that will bolster their depth on the perimeter. Thumbs Down -- Kevin Arnovitz

ESPN Insider:

The trade for Tim Hardaway Jr. may help the Hawks if they can't keep DeMarre Carroll this summer, but passing on a wealth of prospects with potential seems like a missed opportunity. That helped earn Atlanta a C-minus from Chad Ford

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MaceCase · Post #12 » by **MaceCase** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:09 pm

The pundits also didn't laud the Hawks previous offseason, in fact I believe a certain someone was bemoaning how their "grades" were ever so hurtful to the franchise's stock and perception. How'd that work out for them?

This isn't high school, stop worrying about what other people say about your sneakers as if it somehow matters and worry about getting your **** done.

MaceCase · Post #13 » by **MaceCase** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:14 pm

PMOTT3 wrote:Wilcox came out and said that they had three goals going into the draft.

1. Gaining future assets
2. Getting shooting
3. Getting a SG

I was okay with the first trade because to me it signaled that we were able to pick up future assets and get the kid we were targeting all along at #19.

But im sorry..at some point we have to stop going after shooters and start going after TALENT. Our entire roster can shoot! But our entire roster doesnt have superior talent! Thj is considered league wide and realgm wide to not be worthy of #19. We were losers on draft night.

The irony isn't lost on you, I'm sure, that you have a "draft Booker" sig, right? Because I honestly just got a chuckle.

Post #14 » by **Hawk Eye** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:21 pm

MaceCase wrote:
PMOTT3 wrote:Wilcox came out and said that they had three goals going into the draft.

1. Gaining future assets
2. Getting shooting
3. Getting a SG

I was okay with the first trade because to me it signaled that we were able to pick up future assets and get the kid we were targeting all along at #19.

But im sorry..at some point we have to stop going after shooters and start going after TALENT. Our entire roster can shoot! But our entire roster doesnt have superior talent! Thj is considered league wide and realgm wide to not be worthy of #19. We were losers on draft night.

The irony isn't lost on you, I'm sure, that you have a "draft Booker" sig, right? Because I honestly just got a chuckle.

Just took it down now that the draft is over but I think Booker has more talent/potential than THJ. both may be considered shooters but I think Booker has higher upside/talent.

MaceCase · Post #15 » by **MaceCase** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:34 pm

Still doesn't change the fact that he's regarded specifically because he's a shooter...

He may have more "potential" but run down the tale of the tape and they are both equal as prospects with Hardaway having two actual seasons of making 3s at a 35% clip in the NBA as part of one of the most dysfunctional teams in the league as opposed to being a cog on one of the deepest NCAA teams in history.

tbhawksfan1 · Post #16 » by **tbhawksfan1** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:31 pm

We could have drafted a bust at #15. At least we could have had 4 years to find out. Hardaway would already qualify as a bust for the #15 after 2 seasons in the league.

I guess our new thing is to give away firsts; Bebe for nothing, Payne for a likely second in 4 years, 2015 #15 for wasted seconds and a third string SG.

Don't even give me cap crap; the Hawks were 27th in payroll last year, well under the cap

Post #17 » by **Jamaaliver** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:08 pm

tbhawksfan1 wrote:We could have drafted a bust at #15. At least we could have had 4 years to find out. Hardaway would already qualify as a bust for the #15 after 2 seasons in the league.

I guess our new thing is to give away firsts; Bebe for nothing, Payne for a likely second in 4 years, 2015 #15 for wasted seconds and a third string SG.

Don't even give me cap crap; the Hawks were 27th in payroll last year, well under the cap

This is a tough pill to swallow, no doubt. Directly following last year's draft, we started negotiating with TOR for the expiring contract of John Salmons. So, hopefully, this move is the precursor of something big THAT ACTUALLY COMES TO FRUITION.

Last off-season fell apart because we were unable to execute the long-term plans our former GM had been plotting for months. (Big free agent signing)

Here's hoping Wes is better able to accomplish what he has up his sleeve.

Summer 2014 was pretty brutal from start (Adreian pick, Lou giveaway) to finish (Free Agents refusing to meet, D Ferry's exile). Trying to be more optimistic for what we can accomplish under the new regime. :nod:

Skyhawk1 · Post #18 » by **Skyhawk1** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:17 pm

I'm actually glad we got THJ. He's ready to go, just needs to work on his defense to get on the court. People think you can find a starter at 15, well sometimes you can, but to me that shows that the Hawks want to go for it NOW, they just do not want to spend a couple of years developing a player. Remember, Korver is 34. DMC is a free agent.

DirtybirdGA · Post #19 » by **DirtybirdGA** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:24 pm

Also who knows when korver and thabo will return and be in game shape. Just didn't think this would be the help.

Post #20 » by **Luv those Knicks** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:58 am

Knick fan here. It's no secret that we like this swap, but on Timmy, we liked him as a rookie, in fact, we thought we got a nice little player for a late first round pick.

We didn't like him last year, it seemed he shot worse and didn't improve where he needed improving. Bit of a one trick pony shooter who doesn't shoot well enough to pull it off, but it's possible that was the triangle messing him up, at least, it's been suggested that he wasn't happy with the Zen Master's system.

If he's closer to the player he appeared to be as a rookie, you might have gotten yourselves a nice player.