Raptors Visitor: DeMarre Carroll at PF?

LiSTWithLani · Post #1 » by **LiSTWithLani** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:36 pm

Hi Hawks Fans,

Great season last year - loved watching your team of underrated players take home win after win (aside from against the Raptors of course).

I'm here to ask about your thoughts of Carroll playing at the four position next to Valanciunas or Biyombo. Last year he did really get played at PF with the likes of Horford, Millsap and Scott already there. It has been thrown around as an idea amongst our board and we all know that Dwane Casey loves small ball, but I don't see him as a fit there. With Lowry and DeRozan, I can't imagine our team running much.

So, can DeMarre Carroll play PF or is this nonsense?

MaceCase · Post #2 » by **MaceCase** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:33 pm

He came out of college as a tweener forward before settling as a SF in the NBA. He did play some PF for the Hawks 2 years ago during a brutal stretch where nearly the entire frontcourt was injured but it was clear that he was beyond overmatched at the position. He shows good effort and energy as always but he doesn't have the size or strength to tussle with traditional 4s when even big 3s like Joe Johnson, Melo and LeBron give him trouble in the post. He's not a particularly adept rebounder either but if the lineup is all about stretching the floor then sure, he can open up plenty of lanes for Derozan and Lowry on offense but they just have to be mindful of hitting the open man on a few drives to make him a credible threat. He's not going to create much of his own offense but he will find all of the right spots to get easy shots, just needs willing passers.

LiSTWithLani · Post #3 » by **LiSTWithLani** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:38 pm

Thanks MaceCase!

Anyone else want to weigh in?

Post #4 » by **Jamaaliver** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:15 pm

lstern wrote:Anyone else want to weigh in?

Demarre CAN fill in occasionally at PF, but there are drawbacks to enacting that plan full time.

DC's three biggest strengths are his 3-pt shooting, his perimeter defense and his relentless motor. On offense, he can help spacing by drawing his defender out to the 3-pt line, and he can outrun most bigs in transition. So, those are the definite benefits.

But Carroll, as mentioned above, doesn't have the strength/girth to guard bigger players in the paint, leaving him at a disadvantage defensively. In addition, he's likely the best perimeter defender you have, so having him playing to his weakness on the defensive end certainly seems short-sighted considering that 'D' has been his calling card through his entire career.

There are certain matchups that Demarre will certainly be able to exploit while playing PF. But against the top 3 teams in the East (ATL, CHI & CLE), he'll likely be facing a larger, more offensive minded PF with the ability to abuse him in the post.

This plan can work. But, it'll take a number of adjustments from a very savvy coach to get the most out of a player clearly better suited for SF.

Questions for you:
Do you think Casey is the coach to fully utilize this type of approach?

Is Jonas Valanciunas rugged enough to handle the interior all by his lonesome?

Assuming your guards are breaking out for fast break opportunities, can JV limit opposing front courts from feasting on offensive rebounds with an undersized PF in Carroll?

What are your expectations for Bebe moving forward? And for Bruno?

LiSTWithLani · Post #5 » by **LiSTWithLani** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:39 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:Do you think Casey is the coach to fully utilize this type of approach?[/b]

I confidently say that I know for certain that Casey is not the best coach for this. What Casey brings to the table is supposedly defense and energy. Our defense last year was awful, giving up penetration and open threes, our energy was zapped by terrible movement.

Jamaaliver wrote:Is Jonas Valanciunas rugged enough to handle the interior all by his lonesome?[/b]

This one I'm not certain of. As of right now, no, but he is nimble enough to be a good help defender. Don't trust the analytics, the issue has been our system allowing hordes of troops into our paint for him to guard.

Jamaaliver wrote:Assuming your guards are breaking out for fast break opportunities, can JV limit opposing front courts from feasting on offensive rebounds with an undersized PF in Carroll?[/b]

I'm actually not used to seeing guards get out and run to be honest. DeRozan's poor handling means he always walks it up court and Lowry has proven more likely to pull up then take it hard to the hoop in transition. We were bad at rebounding last year and certainly will be again if Carroll plays PF.

Jamaaliver wrote:What are your expectations for Bebe moving forward? And for Bruno?[/b]

He is so underutilized it's killer and with the signing of Biyombo I can't see that changing. He is a pretty good player beside Scola though, so I'd like to see the two get some burn together.
Bruno really does have wild potential. He could be Stojakovic/Kirilenko fusion. Truly, his arms are ridiculous, almost cartoonish. He's a valiant marksman from outside and has just sneaky length that even NBA's elite athletes can't prepare for. Defensively he could actually change basketball. He doesn't have a Tony Allen style aggressiveness to him, but if he were able to develop that he would be Kawhi Leonard with size almost equivalent to a center.
Right now he's a less athletic Darius Miles that has no idea where he needs to be on the court. He has a me-first attitude and needs to get some damn playing time, thank you Raptors 905!
The true guy to look out for is Normal Powell. Our board is going nuts over him, rightfully so. I see Gerald Henderson as his floor - incredible for a second rounder.

Post #6 » by **Jamaaliver** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:58 pm

lstern wrote:I confidently say that I know for certain that Casey is not the best coach for this.

Glad you already knew. I didn't want to be the guy to break it to you.

lstern wrote:I'm actually not used to seeing guards get out and run to be honest. DeRozan's poor handling means he always walks it up court and Lowry has proven more likely to pull up then take it hard to the hoop in transition.

Very accurate assessments. Makes me wonder how the whole small ball strategy will work without a strong fastbreak offense.

Can't wait for pre-season so we can see how things play out for both our squads...

GRidge · Post #7 » by **GRidge** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:49 pm

Raptors Fan here

thanks for the insight on DC so far! What else can we expect from him? Is it more of system guy or can he create his own offence? All the highlights I've seen of him thus far is him running hard, and amazing passing by your bigs after they draw a double.

MaceCase · Post #8 » by **MaceCase** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:45 am

GRidge wrote:Raptors Fan here

thanks for the insight on DC so far! What else can we expect from him? Is it more of system guy or can he create his own offence? All the highlights I've seen of him thus far is him running hard, and amazing passing by your bigs after they draw a double.

Well he's definitely worth more to us in our system than I think most any other team's.......

Certainly never want to count him out because he's such a hard worker and has a great character but creating his own offense is not his forte in a traditional sense. He is a great slasher that moves extremely well off the ball into vacant spots in the defense but of course, you have to have guys willing and capable of hitting him in those spots.

He did add an extra wrinkle to his offense though that he displayed predominantly in the playoffs. When defenders would close hard on him on the 3 point line he demonstrated a lot of competence putting the ball on the floor and getting into the lane for a very effective floater. That is about the extent of his own offensive creation.

Off the strength of the team's defense he would get out in transition a lot too but that went from stomach churningly disastrous to average during his time in Atlanta. He got some pretty bad tunnel vision on the break and would force a contorted layup attempt over hitting the open man on the flanks or trailer.

jayu70 · Post #9 » by **jayu70** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:05 pm

To add to MaceCase's point DMC also added a 1 dribble pull up midrange jumper when defenders chased him off the 3 point line. I only saw it late in the season a few times though.

The Hawks offense is an equal opportunity offense. You get open, shoot - no heirarchy in terms of saying this guy needs his shots b4 Carroll, not sure it's the same in Toronto.
If the plan is to have Carroll standing at the 3pt line as an outlet for your dribble dribble guards I don't think he'll be most effective. He'll hit his faur amount of 3s but he can do more.
Him running the fastbreak is what I call 'a comedy of errors' - though he was a little better last year than the previous year.

Post #10 » by **ATL Boy** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:13 pm

I see Carroll as more a system player than anything else. I think over 80% of his buckets last year were assisted, which was most in the NBA.

LiSTWithLani · Post #11 » by **LiSTWithLani** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:46 pm

Thanks to everyone weighing in, this is all really good stuff. Prior to I never knew about his forced fast breaks et al.

Would you guys liken him to Shawn Marion or is there a better player comparison you can think of?

fuzzy1 · Post #12 » by **fuzzy1** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:27 am

lstern wrote:Thanks to everyone weighing in, this is all really good stuff. Prior to I never knew about his forced fast breaks et al.

Would you guys liken him to Shawn Marion or is there a better player comparison you can think of?

Nooooo. Not Shawn Marion. Players like Courtney Lee, Danny Green and Korver (plus some slashing, minus some passing and A LOT of shooting) come to mind, though Carroll is a pure 3 version of those players.

Y'all are gonna love him minus the fastbreaks though, he's a great, great dude who busts his ass and adds new things to his game all the time.