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ATL Boy wrote:That's the key to maintaining this huge run of success, for the Spurs, and it is for us as well: drafting. Leonard went in the middle of the first round. All of our picks in the middle of the first continue to get squandered, other than Dennis. We must start drafting better if we want to maintain our success long term.
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ATL Boy wrote:Kawhi Leonard is on his way to being an absolute superstar in this league. Whenever we looked like we were ready to go on a run and bring it back to a manageable deficit, Kawhi just answered back with a couple of mid range shots to restore their lead to 20, multiple times.
That's the key to maintaining this huge run of success, for the Spurs, and it is for us as well: drafting. Leonard went in the middle of the first round. All of our picks in the middle of the first continue to get squandered, other than Dennis. We must start drafting better if we want to maintain our success long term.
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MaceCase wrote:ATL Boy wrote:Kawhi Leonard is on his way to being an absolute superstar in this league. Whenever we looked like we were ready to go on a run and bring it back to a manageable deficit, Kawhi just answered back with a couple of mid range shots to restore their lead to 20, multiple times.
That's the key to maintaining this huge run of success, for the Spurs, and it is for us as well: drafting. Leonard went in the middle of the first round. All of our picks in the middle of the first continue to get squandered, other than Dennis. We must start drafting better if we want to maintain our success long term.
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You'd have a great point if you could say that the Hawks indeed have passed on multiple Kawhi's at their draft position but the truth is no....they are not a bunch of Kawhi's sitting around #15 just because he happened to have gone around there. In fact, you could put together almost every single pick taken at or after Kawhi's slot in every draft that the Hawks have had a pick since and you still wouldn't get a player 1/10th of Kawhi.
Yea, the Spurs got lucky. They got lucky that a 59 win team ended up with Tim Duncan instead of Keith Van Horn a year later and they got lucky that Duncan, Ginobili and Parker are the caliber of role players that they have on their current team.
ATL Boy wrote:MaceCase wrote:ATL Boy wrote:Kawhi Leonard is on his way to being an absolute superstar in this league. Whenever we looked like we were ready to go on a run and bring it back to a manageable deficit, Kawhi just answered back with a couple of mid range shots to restore their lead to 20, multiple times.
That's the key to maintaining this huge run of success, for the Spurs, and it is for us as well: drafting. Leonard went in the middle of the first round. All of our picks in the middle of the first continue to get squandered, other than Dennis. We must start drafting better if we want to maintain our success long term.
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You'd have a great point if you could say that the Hawks indeed have passed on multiple Kawhi's at their draft position but the truth is no....they are not a bunch of Kawhi's sitting around #15 just because he happened to have gone around there. In fact, you could put together almost every single pick taken at or after Kawhi's slot in every draft that the Hawks have had a pick since and you still wouldn't get a player 1/10th of Kawhi.
Yea, the Spurs got lucky. They got lucky that a 59 win team ended up with Tim Duncan instead of Keith Van Horn a year later and they got lucky that Duncan, Ginobili and Parker are the caliber of role players that they have on their current team.
We still passed up on value in the middle of the draft over the years. In 2013 we got Bebe, while passing up on centers such as Plumlee, Dieng, and Gobert. In 2014 we got Payne while passing up on Jusuf Nurkic (while we were still in need of a center).
We've been in some nice draft slots over the past few years, in the middle of the first round. I get it, you hit on some you miss some, but to keep missing in the middle of the first round year after year, other than Schroder, could have a profound effect on the future. And we're not only missing, we're completely giving up on these players before even giving them sufficient time to develop.
Atlanta isn't some prime free agency destination, we need to replenish through the draft if we hope to have success as our core players continue to get older. We haven't done that.
ATL Boy wrote:We still passed up on value in the middle of the draft over the years. In 2013 we got Bebe, while passing up on centers such as Plumlee, Dieng, and Gobert. In 2014 we got Payne while passing up on Jusuf Nurkic (while we were still in need of a center).
We've been in some nice draft slots over the past few years, in the middle of the first round. I get it, you hit on some you miss some, but to keep missing in the middle of the first round year after year, other than Schroder, could have a profound effect on the future. And we're not only missing, we're completely giving up on these players before even giving them sufficient time to develop.
Atlanta isn't some prime free agency destination, we need to replenish through the draft if we hope to have success as our core players continue to get older. We haven't done that.
MaceCase wrote:ATL Boy wrote:MaceCase wrote:You'd have a great point if you could say that the Hawks indeed have passed on multiple Kawhi's at their draft position but the truth is no....they are not a bunch of Kawhi's sitting around #15 just because he happened to have gone around there. In fact, you could put together almost every single pick taken at or after Kawhi's slot in every draft that the Hawks have had a pick since and you still wouldn't get a player 1/10th of Kawhi.
Yea, the Spurs got lucky. They got lucky that a 59 win team ended up with Tim Duncan instead of Keith Van Horn a year later and they got lucky that Duncan, Ginobili and Parker are the caliber of role players that they have on their current team.
We still passed up on value in the middle of the draft over the years. In 2013 we got Bebe, while passing up on centers such as Plumlee, Dieng, and Gobert. In 2014 we got Payne while passing up on Jusuf Nurkic (while we were still in need of a center).
We've been in some nice draft slots over the past few years, in the middle of the first round. I get it, you hit on some you miss some, but to keep missing in the middle of the first round year after year, other than Schroder, could have a profound effect on the future. And we're not only missing, we're completely giving up on these players before even giving them sufficient time to develop.
Atlanta isn't some prime free agency destination, we need to replenish through the draft if we hope to have success as our core players continue to get older. We haven't done that.
And again, you're talking about missing on fringe starters and backups, not franchise players. Not a single one or even the whole group of them together can have a profound effect on a franchise unless they are surrounded by massively more talented players. The Hawks could have hit on every single one of them and would still be in the position of having to go out to find better players to actually win meaningful games.
That's the difference between the Spurs and the Hawks, they've been both lucky enough to not only be in the position to draft franchise cornerstones but had franchise cornerstones available to them at those positions, now they've finally parlayed that into being able to sign another franchise cornerstone (but let's not forget them whiffing on Jason Kidd the last time they went fishing for a max free agent.)
They've done this while Hawks fans quibble over missing out on role players and scrubs simply because they shared similar draft positions as though all drafts are created equal. The situations are not at all comparable.
Jamaaliver wrote:ATL Boy wrote:We still passed up on value in the middle of the draft over the years. In 2013 we got Bebe, while passing up on centers such as Plumlee, Dieng, and Gobert. In 2014 we got Payne while passing up on Jusuf Nurkic (while we were still in need of a center).
We've been in some nice draft slots over the past few years, in the middle of the first round. I get it, you hit on some you miss some, but to keep missing in the middle of the first round year after year, other than Schroder, could have a profound effect on the future. And we're not only missing, we're completely giving up on these players before even giving them sufficient time to develop.
Atlanta isn't some prime free agency destination, we need to replenish through the draft if we hope to have success as our core players continue to get older. We haven't done that.
Bingo.
And don't forget passing on Draymond Green and Khris Middleton in 2012.
There's definitely been value left on the board.
And Adnan, if Danny Ferry follows through with that Josh Smith trade to MIL in 2013...We end up with three draft picks in the top 20 and likely get a shot at Giannis.
That's a franchise altering trade we passed up. Instead...Smoove walks away for nothing.
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ATL Boy wrote:Yea, we ended up mis-handling the Josh situation, hindsight being 20/20. I also remember rumors that we were talking to Golden State about possibly trading Josh for their number 7 pick in 2012, with Andre Drummond still on the board. The Giannis thing is also very frustrating, because he ended up being picked just one spot ahead of us.
ATL Boy wrote:Rudy Gobert isn't just some fringe starter. He has the makings of being an absolute defensive anchor and defensive player of the year in the future. I also don't see how you can judge Jusuf Nurkic as being just a role player after one season, a rookie season where he was very impressive, and looked like the best player in the draft class other than Andrew Wiggins. Then like Jamaal said: there's also a Draymond Green who was available to us in 2012. He certainly looks like more than just a fringe starter/role player.
But the overall point I'm trying to make is that we can't keep squandering first round picks, and just giving up on those players like it's nothing. Since 2012 in the first round we've taken John Jenkins, Dennis Schroder, Lucas Noguera, Adreian Payne, and traded for Tim Hardaway. One of those players didn't have his option picked up, one was traded for a first down the road, one was traded for cap space, and one is in the D-League. Only Schroder hasn't been a miss. Even if we were to have gotten a role player like Plumlee over Bebe, that's a heck of a lot better than what we ended up with.
MaceCase wrote:ATL Boy wrote:Rudy Gobert isn't just some fringe starter. He has the makings of being an absolute defensive anchor and defensive player of the year in the future. I also don't see how you can judge Jusuf Nurkic as being just a role player after one season, a rookie season where he was very impressive, and looked like the best player in the draft class other than Andrew Wiggins. Then like Jamaal said: there's also a Draymond Green who was available to us in 2012. He certainly looks like more than just a fringe starter/role player.
But the overall point I'm trying to make is that we can't keep squandering first round picks, and just giving up on those players like it's nothing. Since 2012 in the first round we've taken John Jenkins, Dennis Schroder, Lucas Noguera, Adreian Payne, and traded for Tim Hardaway. One of those players didn't have his option picked up, one was traded for a first down the road, one was traded for cap space, and one is in the D-League. Only Schroder hasn't been a miss. Even if we were to have gotten a role player like Plumlee over Bebe, that's a heck of a lot better than what we ended up with.
The same way I can't judge guys like Nurkic is the same way you can't judge them either, he had a nice little run over a very short period during his rookie season, you know, similar to Tim Hardaway Jr., but how's that worked out since? See, it's a matter of perspective, you can manipulate it plus or minus in whatever favor you prefer much in the same manner that it also takes some serious hindsight to even start reaching into the 2nd round for missed 1st round picks like Green.
But again, this started with you making a comparison to the Spurs. What you are arguing has zero comparison to the Spurs.
In fact, you could put together almost every single pick taken at or after Kawhi's slot in every draft that the Hawks have had a pick since and you still wouldn't get a player 1/10th of Kawhi.
Not a single one or even the whole group of them together can have a profound effect on a franchise unless they are surrounded by massively more talented players.
ATL Boy wrote:MaceCase wrote:ATL Boy wrote:Rudy Gobert isn't just some fringe starter. He has the makings of being an absolute defensive anchor and defensive player of the year in the future. I also don't see how you can judge Jusuf Nurkic as being just a role player after one season, a rookie season where he was very impressive, and looked like the best player in the draft class other than Andrew Wiggins. Then like Jamaal said: there's also a Draymond Green who was available to us in 2012. He certainly looks like more than just a fringe starter/role player.
But the overall point I'm trying to make is that we can't keep squandering first round picks, and just giving up on those players like it's nothing. Since 2012 in the first round we've taken John Jenkins, Dennis Schroder, Lucas Noguera, Adreian Payne, and traded for Tim Hardaway. One of those players didn't have his option picked up, one was traded for a first down the road, one was traded for cap space, and one is in the D-League. Only Schroder hasn't been a miss. Even if we were to have gotten a role player like Plumlee over Bebe, that's a heck of a lot better than what we ended up with.
The same way I can't judge guys like Nurkic is the same way you can't judge them either, he had a nice little run over a very short period during his rookie season, you know, similar to Tim Hardaway Jr., but how's that worked out since? See, it's a matter of perspective, you can manipulate it plus or minus in whatever favor you prefer much in the same manner that it also takes some serious hindsight to even start reaching into the 2nd round for missed 1st round picks like Green.
But again, this started with you making a comparison to the Spurs. What you are arguing has zero comparison to the Spurs.
I don't see how the draft has zero comparison to the Spurs. They've been built through the draft, and are consistently replenishing throughout the draft to maintain success, the way we need to do.
You can argue that there was no value for us to choose from in our draft slots all you want, but it's not true. While you are right that SOME of those players are role players, like Plumlee and Dieng in 2013, they would have been better selections than Bebe. Or even worse: Bebe might end up being a contributor, but we gave up on him and traded him for cap space. Drafting Nurkic in 2014 would have been a better decision than taking Payne and then trading him for a pick down the line.
Then there are the potential star players we passed up on. Gobert in 2013, Green in 2012. You have a point that it takes some hindsight to talk about this now, but your original argument was basically there was no value from us to choose from in those drafts:In fact, you could put together almost every single pick taken at or after Kawhi's slot in every draft that the Hawks have had a pick since and you still wouldn't get a player 1/10th of Kawhi.Not a single one or even the whole group of them together can have a profound effect on a franchise unless they are surrounded by massively more talented players.
Even if we had hit only role players since 2012, we'd still be in a better position than having literally one out of four players taken in the middle of the first round be a contributor. But there were at least a couple of franchise altering guys taken after our selection in those drafts; and maybe more depending on how Nurkic develops.