Does a healthy Demarre Carroll make a huge difference?

[Purple Fever]

Hey Hawks fans,

There is some debate on the Raptors board about Carroll and his impending return.

Assuming he is healthy and ready to play come playoffs, does he make a team significantly better?

Raptors fans have not seen enough of him at 100% to accurately gauge his value to a team, so as someone suggested in a thread on our board, I am asking you guys for your 2 cents.

Cheers, and good luck with the rest of your season

[Hawk Eye]

Well he was our best player in the playoffs last season in our run to the ECF. He consistently brought it on both sides of the ball night in and night out. If memory serves, i believe he even put the team on his back a few times in the playoffs last season. So if Derozan or Lowry fails to show up in the post-season, I could see DMC having some big games. Not saying it will for sure happen but he's shown that he is capable.

[MaceCase]

DeMarre wasn't the best player for the Hawks in last year's playoffs, he Jerome Jamesed it for a few games by playing above his head in order to secure his future in free agency. Did he carry the team for a few stretches? Absolutely, but that was a result of teams simply not having the resources to cover the 5th option after they worked tirelessly to take away the first 4 options. Kudos on him stepping up as the pressure release valve but let's not get carried away.

A lot of what the Raptors do is built around Derozan and Lowry being super heroes but if the Raps face off against a team that can manage to single cover them or shade their defense without completely breaking down elsewhere then I don't think there's much evidence that DeMarre can step up as a reliable 3rd option. The Hawks were a dramatically different team, they featured 4 All Stars and an offense predicated on getting easy shots by having multiple guys breaking down the defense in multiple facets and whipping the ball around everywhere so that defenses couldn't recover. It's easier for a player to step up in that environment than it is for a team like Toronto that plays at a much more deliberate pace with far less emphasis on passing.

DeMarre certainly won't hurt you though if you keep his role reduced, he'll fill in admirably as a versatile 3 and D presence but you might run into some trouble if the actual expectation is for him to step up or operate as a 3rd iso player.

[xccelerate]

you might run into some trouble if the actual expectation is for him to step up or operate as a 3rd iso player.

Basically.

I feel bad for him. I think the Raptors offense will hurt him more than he hurts their offense but at his salary, he'll get the blame if he doesn't come back and push a successful team another level. They'll get better on D tho so we'll see.

[Hawk Eye]

DeMarre wasn't the best player for the Hawks in last year's playoffs, he Jerome Jamesed it for a few games by playing above his head in order to secure his future in free agency. Did he carry the team for a few stretches? Absolutely, but that was a result of teams simply not having the resources to cover the 5th option after they worked tirelessly to take away the first 4 options. Kudos on him stepping up as the pressure release valve but let's not get carried away.

I think it is certainly debatable. Out of all of our starters in that 1st round series with Brooklyn--DMC registered the highest PPG (17.5), highest FG% (.543), 2nd highest 3P% (.467), highest eFG% (.643), and highest TS% (.674). Ortg = 129, Drtg = 106

You could make the argument that he indeed "Jerome James'd" it a few games during that series-- which is fine. So let's take a look at some of his stats during the second round series against Washington.

2nd highest PPG at 16.7 (Horford is 1st at 16.8), highest FG% (.507), highest 3P% at .407 (Horford's is .500 but that's shooting 2/4), highest eFG% (.582 ), highest TS% (.615), best TOV% (6.9), and best Ortg (120). Drtg was also good at 102.

I just don't see how this isn't even debatable.

www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-nets-vs-hawks.html

www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-wizards-vs-hawks.html

[Rip2137]

I think the raps are like us last year. Their chemistry has them playing above their talent which makes them tough to beat. Adding demarre, even if he technically makes the team more talented will hurt that chemistry.

Also Demarre didnt carry us. He knows how to get open. If derozen and Lowry can make that pass he can be useful on offense but again, slot of that is based off chemistry and knowing where a guy will be...i personally think that if they add Demarre back to the rotation it will weaken the Raptors THIS season.

[MaceCase]

DeMarre wasn't the best player for the Hawks in last year's playoffs, he Jerome Jamesed it for a few games by playing above his head in order to secure his future in free agency. Did he carry the team for a few stretches? Absolutely, but that was a result of teams simply not having the resources to cover the 5th option after they worked tirelessly to take away the first 4 options. Kudos on him stepping up as the pressure release valve but let's not get carried away.

I think it is certainly debatable. Out of all of our starters in that 1st round series with Brooklyn--DMC registered the highest PPG (17.5), highest FG% (.543), 2nd highest 3P% (.467), highest eFG% (.643), and highest TS% (.674). Ortg = 129, Drtg = 106

You could make the argument that he indeed "Jerome James'd" it a few games during that series-- which is fine. So let's take a look at some of his stats during the second round series against Washington.

2nd highest PPG at 16.7 (Horford is 1st at 16.8), highest FG% (.507), highest 3P% at .407 (Horford's is .500 but that's shooting 2/4), highest eFG% (.582 ), highest TS% (.615), best TOV% (6.9), and best Ortg (120). Drtg was also good at 102.

I just don't see how this isn't even debatable.

www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-nets-vs-hawks.html

www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-wizards-vs-hawks.html

And out of all the starters he was 4th in Usage in those two series. Sounds exactly like a quaternary option taking advantage of the looks his teammates produced for him and not creating offense on his own.

[Hawk Eye]

DeMarre wasn't the best player for the Hawks in last year's playoffs, he Jerome Jamesed it for a few games by playing above his head in order to secure his future in free agency. Did he carry the team for a few stretches? Absolutely, but that was a result of teams simply not having the resources to cover the 5th option after they worked tirelessly to take away the first 4 options. Kudos on him stepping up as the pressure release valve but let's not get carried away.

I think it is certainly debatable. Out of all of our starters in that 1st round series with Brooklyn--DMC registered the highest PPG (17.5), highest FG% (.543), 2nd highest 3P% (.467), highest eFG% (.643), and highest TS% (.674). Ortg = 129, Drtg = 106

You could make the argument that he indeed "Jerome James'd" it a few games during that series-- which is fine. So let's take a look at some of his stats during the second round series against Washington.

2nd highest PPG at 16.7 (Horford is 1st at 16.8), highest FG% (.507), highest 3P% at .407 (Horford's is .500 but that's shooting 2/4), highest eFG% (.582 ), highest TS% (.615), best TOV% (6.9), and best Ortg (120). Drtg was also good at 102.

I just don't see how this isn't even debatable.

www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-nets-vs-hawks.html

www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-wizards-vs-hawks.html

And out of all the starters he was 4th in Usage in those two series. Sounds exactly like a quaternary option taking advantage of the looks his teammates produced for him and not creating offense on his own.

Just because he was unable to create offense on his own doesn't mean he was ineffective for us in the playoffs.

[Rip2137]

It also doesn't mean he was our best player. Everyone else getting attention and you getting wide open layups and shots doesn't mean you were the best. Simply put, of the others weren't drawing the attention he doesn't get all those wide open, assisted looks. He still had to make the shots and great on him, but if a PG beats gis man off the dribble, draws a second defender and finds Demarre open because if that, I have a hard time pretending Demarre gets the credit for that play. The guy knows how and when to cut off the ball and made open shots. That's great...that doesn't make him our best player in the playoffs.

[Hawk Eye]

It also doesn't mean he was our best player. Everyone else getting attention and you getting wide open layups and shots doesn't mean you were the best. Simply put, of the others weren't drawing the attention he doesn't get all those wide open, assisted looks. He still had to make the shots and great on him, but if a PG beats gis man off the dribble, draws a second defender and finds Demarre open because if that, I have a hard time pretending Demarre gets the credit for that play. The guy knows how and when to cut off the ball and made open shots. That's great...that doesn't make him our best player in the playoffs.

I disagree. In your scenario where the PG beats his man off the dribble; I don't think it's fair to give DeMarre any less credit than what your giving the PG. Being able to create open looks for your teammates is great but if your teammates aren't hitting the open shots then it's essentially useless. Based on the stats i posted above, Demmare was one of our biggest contributors to the offense in the playoffs last season. Yea he didn't create the looks but he still deserves credit for making the shots his teammates set him up with. You dont have to agree that he was our best player in the playoffs but It's just not reasonable to think he shouldn't be in the discussion.

[MaceCase]

I think it is certainly debatable. Out of all of our starters in that 1st round series with Brooklyn--DMC registered the highest PPG (17.5), highest FG% (.543), 2nd highest 3P% (.467), highest eFG% (.643), and highest TS% (.674). Ortg = 129, Drtg = 106

You could make the argument that he indeed "Jerome James'd" it a few games during that series-- which is fine. So let's take a look at some of his stats during the second round series against Washington.

2nd highest PPG at 16.7 (Horford is 1st at 16.8), highest FG% (.507), highest 3P% at .407 (Horford's is .500 but that's shooting 2/4), highest eFG% (.582 ), highest TS% (.615), best TOV% (6.9), and best Ortg (120). Drtg was also good at 102.

I just don't see how this isn't even debatable.

www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-nets-vs-hawks.html

www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-wizards-vs-hawks.html

And out of all the starters he was 4th in Usage in those two series. Sounds exactly like a quaternary option taking advantage of the looks his teammates produced for him and not creating offense on his own.

Just because he was unable to create offense on his own doesn't mean he was ineffective for us in the playoffs.

You're a lover of inventing arguments aren't you? So because we prove that he didn't "carry" the team you now believe that I said that he was ineffective? No, he was actually very effective in his role as a bottom option. What's your next argument, Steve Kerr won the 97 Finals for the Bulls?

[Hawk Eye]

And out of all the starters he was 4th in Usage in those two series. Sounds exactly like a quaternary option taking advantage of the looks his teammates produced for him and not creating offense on his own.

Just because he was unable to create offense on his own doesn't mean he was ineffective for us in the playoffs.

You're a lover of inventing arguments aren't you? So because we prove that he didn't "carry" the team you now believe that I said that he was ineffective? No, he was actually very effective in his role as a bottom option. What's your next argument, Steve Kerr won the 97 Finals for the Bulls?

Not really, but your unwilligness to admit that at the very least it's debatable that DeMarre was our best player in the playoffs last season has made it seem that way hasn't it.

[MaceCase]

Just because he was unable to create offense on his own doesn't mean he was ineffective for us in the playoffs.

You're a lover of inventing arguments aren't you? So because we prove that he didn't "carry" the team you now believe that I said that he was ineffective? No, he was actually very effective in his role as a bottom option. What's your next argument, Steve Kerr won the 97 Finals for the Bulls?

Not really, but your unwilligness to admit that at the very least it's debatable that DeMarre was our best player in the playoffs last season has made it seem that way hasn't it.

I'm just going to call you strawman from now on. Keep inventing words and points I supposedly made, I suppose it's easier for you to argue with a fantasy.

[Rip2137]

But that's not debatable. Being the guy the other team left open doesn't make you the best player on the team at any point. I mean Korver was our most efficient guy last year... Are you saying its debatable he was the best player on the team? I'm sorry but there is no debate for that. He was VERY GOOD at his role but he was assisted on 80% of his shots and taking statistically wide open shots.

[Hawk Eye]

Lol I'm not inventing any words or points. You are just once again beating around the bush (despite me bringing up the stats from bballreference) and refusing to admit it's debatable that DMC was our best player in the playoffs.

[Hawk Eye]

But that's not debatable. Being the guy the other team left open doesn't make you the best player on the team at any point. I mean Korver was our most efficient guy last year... Are you saying its debatable he was the best player on the team? I'm sorry but there is no debate for that. He was VERY GOOD at his role but he was assisted on 80% of his shots and taking statistically wide open shots.

Being the guy that leads your team in PPG, FG%, 3P%, eFG%, TS%, and Ortg in the 1st and 2nd round
round of the playoffs absolutely puts you in the discussion--thus making it debatable.

[MaceCase]

Lol I'm not inventing any words or points. You are just once again beating around the bush (despite me bringing up the stats from bballreference) and refusing to admit it's debatable that DMC was our best player in the playoffs.

The thing here is that you made a statement of which not one but three people have refuted so it's rather perplexing that it's your assertion that me or anyone else are the ones unable to accept the topic as debatable.

[Hawk Eye]

This is going in circles. At this point I'm convinced that DeMarre could have had LeBron James-like Curry-like production but if the advanced stats showed he was 4th in usage you wouldn't think its debatable he was the best player out there. Agree to disagree I suppose.

[MaceCase]

This is going in circles. At this point I'm convinced that DeMarre could have had LeBron James-like Curry-like production but if the advanced stats showed he was 4th in usage you wouldn't think its debatable he was the best player out there. Agree to disagree I suppose.

How about this, Andre Iguodala won Finals MVP. It's therefore debatable that he was better than Steph, Draymond, and Klay. Sounds asinine, right?

[jayu70]

I'll put it this way - Demarre was the only player who played better in the playoffs than in the regular season for more games than not until he got hurt compared to Millsap, Horford, Korver and Teague - not saying they didn't have any good games just that their was no uptick in their production.