Should Hawks extend THJ or DS this summer?

[Jamaaliver]

Dennis Schroder and Tim Hardaway Jr. are both eligible to negotiate contract extensions from July 6th (the end of the July moratorium) until October 31st. If no deal is reached by November of 2016, they will then become free agents at the end of the season, most likely as restricted free agents if the Hawks choose to tender them a qualifying offer. Their respective qualifying offers are $3,824,518 and $3,335,707 unless either of them meets "starter criteria." If either starts 41 games or plays over 2,000 minutes in the 2016--17 regular season, then their qualifying offer increases to $4,588,840.

If either of them agree to an extension before November 2016, then their cap hit for the 2016--17 season is unaffected. However, their hypothetical extension will kick in at the turn of the 2017 off-season to whatever the starting value of said extension ends up being.

If either signs an extension, it can be for as little as one additional season or four seasons (with some exceptions).

Here


Thoughts on extending the wonder twins?

Would we rather just extend a QO and wait to sign them next summer when other teams can bid as well?

Have we seen enough of THJ to commit to him beyond next season?

Concerns?

Predictions?

[PandaKidd]

DS is getting extended, I highly doubt we let him reach RFA. If hes not traded, hes here, period.

THJ im not sure is a starting caliber player, yet. But it would be GOD AWFUL if they didnt keep him and let him walk. You traded a 1st round pick for him, it would be shockingly bad if they didnt retain him

[ATL Boy]

I'd try to extend them both come July. Both should be in our long term plans: we just traded a mid first for THJ, and Schröder is our best (only good) first round selection since the Ferry era began.

[jayu70]

I would like to extend both.
Dennis is obvious. Even if THjr is not starting caliber, extended at great price is a good thing.

[MaceCase]

Only surefire players on rookie contracts deserve extensions. Not understanding how the complaint is committing to mediocrity but people are fine with inking a longterm deal with less than stellar guys one year before they even have to. The only reason to hand out an extension to either is if BudCox feels they can get them on less than what they would on the open market during their restricted free agency. The players themselves, of course, aren't obligated to sign that extension if they feel they can command more on the open market.

I rather they put up or shut up over the next season and the Hawks can have the advantage of retaining them if they can be consistently good with the option of booting them if they can't elevate their game above what it is. It's the beauty of restricted free agency, why give that up?

[PandaKidd]

You dont think Dennis is surefire? I mean hes arguable the best backup PG In the east? League? (asking not stating).

THJ I am not comfy giving any extension to. But the caveat of that is if they dont give him one, the backlash will be BRUTAL IMO because theyll have traded a top 15 pick (following a 60 win season) only to wave a guy who averaged 9 min per game in the post season and didnt really see the floor in the regular season until the last 2 months? If they dont extend THJ, then in a year he becomes RFA and people can bid on him. Right now I dont think he has any value, but if he is the starting SG next season and plays himself into big money.......... isnt that dangerous ?

Schroeder I think goes without saying that hes paid WELL BELOW market value (especially after this offseason the cap goes up). 4.5 million for a starting DS seems pretty cheap (assuming he doesnt take 3 steps backwards).

If they give DS an extension NOW, dont you think that they are in a better bargaining posiiton since he hasnt been the "starter" yet? Dont you think its a risk if he plays a year and puts up great numbers that the QO could end up being much higher by a competing team?

[PandaKidd]

IE if we extend DS now, we dont give other teams the option of bidding on him in a year. If we dont extend him, then in a year he enters RFA and a team can offer him whatever they think is fair (and that offseason will be the biggest cap in history) so wouldnt we be setting ourselves up for a bidding war in the richest FA market in history?

[MaceCase]

IE if we extend DS now, we dont give other teams the option of bidding on him in a year. If we dont extend him, then in a year he enters RFA and a team can offer him whatever they think is fair (and that offseason will be the biggest cap in history) so wouldnt we be setting ourselves up for a bidding war in the richest FA market in history?

One, You're assuming that Dennis has zero choice in this. This is a guy that was talking about being a starter before the beginning of the current season so why again do you think you're going to get him to bet against himself and take some salary commensurate with him being a back up rather than a potential starter a year from now?

Secondly, his max extension is based on 2017-18 season's max regardless, I don't know where exactly team's could raise his price tag if whatever negotiations he makes now will be determined by the following season's cap number anyway. There is no bidding war for the Hawks, all they have to do is match or just threaten to match. That matching ability often scares teams away as they have to tie up their cap in the middle of free agency waiting for the Hawks to match or not match precluding them from pursuing other domino pieces or contingencies. That ability to match often makes teams feel as though they have to offer more than they would be comfortable paying to get the Hawks to blink so they often walk away. That ability to match means that if a team is serious enough about getting the player that they'd open up trade dialogues to get him. That ability to match means that you can actually depress his market.

There are massively greater advantages to waiting till free agency including the fact that the Hawks would be working with a caphold for either rather than actual salary, that allows the Hawks to go out and get more players and then go over the cap to resign their own. The only advantage to an extension now is......maybe you get Dennis on 15mil a year when he could get 18 on the market, that 3mil aint killing you at less years and annual raises. That 15mil definitely will kill you when you're dealing with reduced capspace, trade options, and Dennis potentially just being the equivalent of Terrence Ross, an overpaid backup that you're now unnecessarily tied down long term to.

[jayu70]

IE if we extend DS now, we dont give other teams the option of bidding on him in a year. If we dont extend him, then in a year he enters RFA and a team can offer him whatever they think is fair (and that offseason will be the biggest cap in history) so wouldnt we be setting ourselves up for a bidding war in the richest FA market in history?

One, You're assuming that Dennis has zero choice in this. This is a guy that was talking about being a starter before the beginning of the current season so why again do you think you're going to get him to bet against himself and take some salary commensurate with him being a back up rather than a potential starter a year from now?

Secondly, his max extension is based on 2017-18 season's max regardless, I don't know where exactly team's could raise his price tag if whatever negotiations he makes now will be determined by the following season's cap number anyway. There is no bidding war for the Hawks, all they have to do is match or just threaten to match. That matching ability often scares teams away as they have to tie up their cap in the middle of free agency waiting for the Hawks to match or not match precluding them from pursuing other domino pieces or contingencies. That ability to match often makes teams feel as though they have to offer more than they would be comfortable paying to get the Hawks to blink so they often walk away. That ability to match means that if a team is serious enough about getting the player that they'd open up trade dialogues to get him. That ability to match means that you can actually depress his market.

There are massively greater advantages to waiting till free agency including the fact that the Hawks would be working with a caphold for either rather than actual salary, that allows the Hawks to go out and get more players and then go over the cap to resign their own. The only advantage to an extension now is......maybe you get Dennis on 15mil a year when he could get 18 on the market, that 3mil aint killing you at less years and annual raises. That 15mil definitely will kill you when you're dealing with reduced capspace, trade options, and Dennis potentially just being the equivalent of Terrence Ross, an overpaid backup that you're now unnecessarily tied down long term to.

I totally forgot about the capholds vs actually salary for thee players. Good call.

[King Ken]

Dennis yes. I am not sure Tim's agent is willing to extend him


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[simon24]

Dennis Schroder and Tim Hardaway Jr. are both eligible to negotiate contract extensions from July 6th (the end of the July moratorium) until October 31st. If no deal is reached by November of 2016, they will then become free agents at the end of the season, most likely as restricted free agents if the Hawks choose to tender them a qualifying offer. Their respective qualifying offers are $3,824,518 and $3,335,707 unless either of them meets "starter criteria." If either starts 41 games or plays over 2,000 minutes in the 2016--17 regular season, then their qualifying offer increases to $4,588,840.

If either of them agree to an extension before November 2016, then their cap hit for the 2016--17 season is unaffected. However, their hypothetical extension will kick in at the turn of the 2017 off-season to whatever the starting value of said extension ends up being.

If either signs an extension, it can be for as little as one additional season or four seasons (with some exceptions).

Here


Thoughts on extending the wonder twins?

Would we rather just extend a QO and wait to sign them next summer when other teams can bid as well?

Have we seen enough of THJ to commit to him beyond next season?

Concerns?

Predictions?

Dennis is a keeper. THJ is replacable. I'd extend a QO to both and just let other teams determine the price tag. Hawks would have plenty of cap space next summer.

[Jamaaliver]

I've thought this over from a strategy standpoint for a week+.

I'd likely pursue extensions with each of them. And resort to extending a Qualifying Offer if we are unable to find a common middle ground.


DS is unlikely to extend. Especially if he has a chance to be a starter this season and increase his worth on the Free Agent market.

But THJ would be foolish not to. I'd work diligently to get Hardaway extended on a modest 2-year extension. If we get him locked up and he shows huge improvement, we have a great trade chip of a prime swing-player on an affordable contract to include in future trade or just reap the benefits of his production.

If he bombs, well, his salary would likely be low enough to withstand or simply include in a salary dump.


Regarding Dennis, if we believe he's the guy, we should try our best to get him on an extension for a reasonable amount. Chatter already exists that Philly (and others?) will offer DS a max contract next summer. Let's see if we can get a more palatable deal for the young'n before he ever reaches Free Agency.

The QO should be the last resort for both kids, though.

[jayu70]

I've thought this over from a strategy standpoint for a week+.

I'd likely pursue extensions with each of them. And resort to extending a Qualifying Offer if we are unable to find a common middle ground.


DS is unlikely to extend. Especially if he has a chance to be a starter this season and increase his worth on the Free Agent market.

But THJ would be foolish not to. I'd work diligently to get Hardaway extended on a modest 2-year extension. If we get him locked up and he shows huge improvement, we have a great trade chip of a prime swing-player on an affordable contract to include in future trade or just reap the benefits of his production.

If he bombs, well, his salary would likely be low enough to withstand or simply include in a salary dump.


Regarding Dennis, if we believe he's the guy, we should try our best to get him on an extension for a reasonable amount. Chatter already exists that Philly (and others?) will offer DS a max contract next summer. Let's see if we can get a more palatable deal for the young'n before he ever reaches Free Agency.

The QO should be the last resort for both kids, though.

That was my thinking as well, but as Mace pointed out why reduce our capspace next season by offering them early extensions. DS's QO next season is $3.8 million if we extend him this season based on the $92 million cap (say we extend him at $18 mil per, just throwing this out), it's his actual new salary that counts against the cap and not his QO. Doing so limits our ability to sign FAs. Same with THJr.

[Jamaaliver]

That was my thinking as well, but as Mace pointed out why reduce our capspace next season by offering them early extensions. DS's QO next season is $3.8 million if we extend him this season based on the $92 million cap (say we extend him at $18 mil per, just throwing this out), it's his actual new salary that counts against the cap and not his QO. Doing so limits our ability to sign FAs. Same with THJr.

These are fair points, but reports indicate other teams are already scheming ways to steal DS from us. Our front office failing to extend DS would play right into their hands. And I am a believer in managing control of assets.


CBS Sports's Take

...this shows you the deal coming for Schroder in 2017 is going to blow a lot of people's minds.

Considering he'll be a restricted free agent (assuming an extension isn't reached this fall), that could raise the price tag even more to put pressure on the Hawks to either match a big deal or risk letting their supposed point guard of the future go for nothing in return.

It's a risk either way, no doubt about it. But Free Agency has rarely been kind to us in the last couple of decades. I'd rather control what we can, now. With the potential benefit longer term of a lesser deal since we bought in early.

[jayu70]

That was my thinking as well, but as Mace pointed out why reduce our capspace next season by offering them early extensions. DS's QO next season is $3.8 million if we extend him this season based on the $92 million cap (say we extend him at $18 mil per, just throwing this out), it's his actual new salary that counts against the cap and not his QO. Doing so limits our ability to sign FAs. Same with THJr.

These are fair points, but reports indicate other teams are already scheming ways to steal DS from us. Our front office failing to extend DS would play right into their hands. And I am a believer in managing control of assets.


CBS Sports's Take

...this shows you the deal coming for Schroder in 2017 is going to blow a lot of people's minds.

Considering he'll be a restricted free agent (assuming an extension isn't reached this fall), that could raise the price tag even more to put pressure on the Hawks to either match a big deal or risk letting their supposed point guard of the future go for nothing in return.

It's a risk either way, no doubt about it. But Free Agency has rarely been kind to us in the last couple of decades. I'd rather control what we can, now. With the potential benefit longer term of a lesser deal since we bought in early.

The only way the risk from other teams becomes an issue is if the new owners aren't willing to pony up to match an offer during Dennis's RFA. I'd prefer we not handicap ourselves upwards of $15 mil plus in capspace. We can't keep piddling with funds.

[Jamaaliver]

The only way the risk from other teams becomes an issue is if the new owners aren't willing to pony up to match an offer during Dennis's RFA. I'd prefer we not handicap ourselves upwards of $15 mil plus in cap space. We can't keep piddling with funds.

Yes. That's the risk.

DS's QO next season is $3.8 million if we extend him this season based on the $92 million cap (say we extend him at $18 mil per, just throwing this out), it's his actual new salary that counts against the cap and not his QO. Doing so limits our ability to sign FAs.

I'm not sure that's exactly how it works regarding the QO and cap space.


Their salaries for 2016-2017 season is already set. We established that when we picked up their options last fall. The Qualifying Offer is for the 2017-2018 season. Their first year after restricted Free Agency. If they have re-upped with us...their actual salary is what they are on the books for.

If they are still playing on just a QO...then they'd be months away from UNRESTRICTED Free Agency in summer 2018. That would be devastatingly bad.

Am I mistaken that the 2017-2018 salary is counted on the books for what they actually play for?

[MaceCase]

He's stating that sighing them to an extension now this summer (2016) will eat up salary cap next summer (2017). Much in the same way we'd play around with Al's caphold being far less than his actual salary is exactly how you'd play around with Dennis and Hardaway Jr., you can fill out your team with other signings and trades and then go over the cap to resign them. Giving them an extension now eliminates much of that flexibility.

The QO is just a placeholder, it's what the team has to put up to ensure the right of first refusal. We've argued this before so the chances of any player actually signing for the QO in order to reach free agency in 2018 is between slim and none.

[Jamaaliver]

He's stating that sighing them to an extension now this summer (2016) will eat up salary cap next summer (2017)...you can fill out your team with other signings and trades and then go over the cap to resign them.

Giving them an extension now eliminates much of that flexibility.

The QO is just a placeholder, it's what the team has to put up to ensure the right of first refusal.

That makes much more sense. Thank you for clarification.


It definitely muddies the waters on the decision. But as Mace states, it is likely a moot decision.


With all this in mind, I'd likely still pursue a friendly extension with DS...but perhaps let THJ get by with simply a QO.

[jayu70]

The only way the risk from other teams becomes an issue is if the new owners aren't willing to pony up to match an offer during Dennis's RFA. I'd prefer we not handicap ourselves upwards of $15 mil plus in cap space. We can't keep piddling with funds.

Yes. That's the risk.

DS's QO next season is $3.8 million if we extend him this season based on the $92 million cap (say we extend him at $18 mil per, just throwing this out), it's his actual new salary that counts against the cap and not his QO. Doing so limits our ability to sign FAs.

I'm not sure that's exactly how it works regarding the QO and cap space.


Their salaries for 2016-2017 season is already set. We established that when we picked up their options last fall. The Qualifying Offer is for the 2017-2018 season. Their first year after restricted Free Agency. If they have re-upped with us...their actual salary is what they are on the books for.

If they are still playing on just a QO...then they'd be months away from UNRESTRICTED Free Agency in summer 2018. That would be devastatingly bad.

Am I mistaken that the 2017-2018 salary is counted on the books for what they actually play for?

Mace clarified.

[Jamaaliver]

I'm hearing CJ McCollum just signed an extension with Portland. It's a max extension. Considering he is from the same draft class as Dennis Schroder, I'm hopeful this at least allows us to start serious negotiations with DS and his reps on an extension for him as well.

Portland Trail Blazers guard C.J. McCollum has reached agreement on a four-year, $106 million maximum contract extension, league sources told The Vertical.

The deal includes no player option, and no trade kicker, league sources said.

McCollum clearly would’ve been destined for a maximum offer sheet as a restricted free agent in the summer of 2017, and the Blazers eliminated the possibility of a “poison pill” offer sheet that could’ve allowed McCollum into unrestricted free agency with a player option on the third year of his deal.

Here