Should Hawks extend THJ or DS this summer?

[MaceCase]

That is actually incorrect. He couldn't be poison pilled because he's not a 2nd rounder subject to the Arenas rule. The BLAZERS actually created a poison pill by extending him because although his salary is ~3 million this season if he's traded now he will count ~22 million against an opposing team's cap.

[el13adnino]

dont offer thj anything, there are no teams knocking on his door wanting his services, u guys should be able to keep him for a relatively cheap contract.

[Jamaaliver]

That is actually incorrect. He couldn't be poison pilled because he's not a 2nd rounder subject to the Arenas rule.

Noted. A sincere thank you for the correction.

[Jamaaliver]

A couple of sites debate the merits of a DS extension for the Hawks:

ProBasketballTalk's Kurt Helin took a look at five extension candidates from the 2013 class with Schröder coming in at No. 4 on the list.


4) Dennis Schroder, Atlanta Hawks. When the Hawks traded Jeff Teague they played their hand here — Schroder is now the point guard of the present and future in Atlanta, and they are banking on his continued development to be a key part of their future. Which means they probably lock up the 23-year-old German with an extension. However, if they want to hesitate because they are not sure they can let him go to restricted free agency next summer and let the market set his price.

Here and Here

Dennis Schroder: The Hawks already committed to Schroder by trading Jeff Teague and elevating the German point guard to de facto starter status. Now we see whether Atlanta commits financially this summer as well, or waits to see how the team performs before inking up. Schroder will be 23 this season, he has a lot still to prove and might be willing to bet on himself if the Hawks don’t come in with a big early offer.

Here and Here

[Jamaaliver]

McCollum clearly would’ve been destined for a maximum offer sheet as a restricted free agent in the summer of 2017, and the Blazers eliminated the possibility of a “poison pill” offer sheet that could’ve allowed McCollum into unrestricted free agency with a player option on the third year of his deal.

Here

That is actually incorrect. He couldn't be poison pilled because he's not a 2nd rounder subject to the Arenas rule. The BLAZERS actually created a poison pill by extending him because although his salary is ~3 million this season if he's traded now he will count ~22 million against an opposing team's cap.

Wait, I'm wondering if the article had the concept correct, while mis-using the terminology.

If a team offered Dennis a multi-year contract next off-season during restricted free-agency...they could conceivably add a player option in the middle of said contract, correct?

Something that would be less than ideal for a Hawks front office to match (as opposed to a straight multi-year extension where we maintain team control for the entirety)?

[MaceCase]

Both the concept and the terminology are faulty. It serves the opposing team and Dennis no benefit to have an option on the 3rd year or before because A) they aren't gaining control themselves B) He wouldn't qualify for 7 years of service to increase the percentage of his Max on his next contract. Players and teams don't shoot themselves in the foot in the attempt to inconvenience another team.

An option year would only be likely in the 4th season, it is incredibly doubtful that fear of potentially losing a player after 3 years instead of 4 played any motivation in the Blazers extending McCollum instead of letting him hit free agency.

[Jamaaliver]

Players and teams don't shoot themselves in the foot in the attempt to inconvenience another team.

Don't they?

Didn't Brooklyn just construct ugly (back-loaded) contract offers to Allen Crabbe and Ty Johnson in hopes that Miami and Portland wouldn't match?

Didn't Houston do the same thing years ago for Jeremy Lin to prevent the Knicks from matching?


I feel like teams often, intentionally put out less than ideal restricted free agency offers in hopes that their current team let's them walk away rather than match.

The best recent example I can find is the Charlotte offer to Gordon Hayward during his Restricted Free Agency two summers ago:

Yahoo Sports reported that Hayward's offer sheet includes a 15 percent trade kicker. Charlotte inserted that, included a fourth-year player option and offered Hayward max money in hopes to make matching the contract less attractive for the Jazz. Here

[MaceCase]

You missed the part where either Brooklyn or Houston or Crabbe or Lin or Johnson collectively shot themselves in the foot. They made it more unpalatable for the previous teams to match, not themselves. Pay attention.

You think Brooklyn cares about handing a 15% trade kicker to Crabbe? Why chase after a guy if your intent is to just turnaround and flip him? The trade kicker was an add on to inconvenience Portland, not themselves, given that that is an extra expense that they have to consider if they find paying 97 million to only their wing rotation isn't reasonable and have to look to a trade to fill out the roster elsewhere, which will also be heavily motivated by luxury tax implications.

Lin and Johnson were actual Arenas poison pills because they weren't 1st rounders. Their contracts being back loaded wasn't an inconvenience to Houston or Brooklyn because they would have had a flat cap hold for an even amount throughout the life of their contracts. That is a very reasonable situation for them but not so much for the matching team that is left on the hook getting a discount now paying 5 mill over the next two years only to watch it balloon up 19 and 20 million on their cap at the end of his deal rather than a flat 12.5 million.

That is why that is called a poison pill. That is also inapplicable to either Dennis, McCollum, or Hardaway.

As you are displaying in your edited post, Hayward has a 4th year option, not a 3rd year. That would have made little sense to either Charlotte or him. That report on the motivations of Portland extending McCollum is utter bunk that lacks both factual and logical sense.

[Jamaaliver]

^I hear you. I really do.

But the more I research, the more I hear teams willing to structure untenable contracts in hopes the current team won't match. For both 1st rounders and 2nd rounders.

The Gordon Hayward contract I mentioned above.

The Chandler Parsons contract:

This situation is similar to when the Dallas Mavericks signed Chandler Parsons to an offer sheet two years ago. The Houston Rockets intended to match any contract for Parsons, but general manager Daryl Morey called it "one of the most untradeable" contracts he'd ever seen.

Here



The untradeable Allen Crabbe contract:

You also almost always have to overpay if you want to steal a restricted free agent. If Crabbe had signed an offer sheet for $10-15 million per season, the Blazers would likely match it without thinking twice. Portland still might match, but the decision might be difficult.

Here



It seems that opposing teams could add a number of less than ideal contract addenda to make a Free Agency re-sign less palatable.

[MaceCase]

You are flailing uselessly to prove a non-existent point.

Again, 2nd rounders are inapplicable to the Hawks situation. There can be no poison pill provisions so throw out Parsons, or Johnson, or Lin or Asik. Just seriously stop. Morey even proved himself a fool because Parsons managed to opt out of that "untradeable" contract and I guess sign an even more "untradeable" contract.

You are being entirely disingenuous claiming Crabbe's deal to be untradeable. He received a deal commensurate with the established market rate for starting caliber wings. There's little issue in Portland being able to trade him, their issue is keeping him longterm given the other contracts they offered to people at his position.

If you look at this from a factual and logical standpoint it is very straightforward:

The worst case scenario for the Hawks is they match a max contract for less than what they could offer with an option on the last year and a trade kicker that is inconsequential to a team that is nowhere close to any cap constrictions resigning their starting PG.


Period.

[Jamaaliver]

Yeah, I thought we'd already established that the author of the article misused the term 'poison pill'. We are NOT speaking of a 'poison pill' scenario.On this we agree.


And I appreciate your input. I really do. But I, respectfully, disagree. The writers over at CBSSports are of the opinion that Crabbe's contract will be terribly difficult to move in the future. And a similarly structured contract offer with an early-out clause or a trade kicker could make any future Dennis trades extraordinarily difficult.

The Blazers likely don't want to lose Crabbe for nothing, but this would also be an incredibly difficult-to-trade contract

Here



Earlier this year they already indicated things could get crazy for Dennis next summer:

I think this shows you the deal coming for Schroder in 2017 is going to blow a lot of people's minds. A lot of the money being thrown around is going to be crazy, but there will be a lot of interest generated for a point guard like Schroder.

Considering he'll be a restricted free agent (assuming an extension isn't reached this fall), that could raise the price tag even more to put pressure on the Hawks to either match a big deal or risk letting their supposed point guard of the future go for nothing in return.

Here


I think it's a strong possibility that Brooklyn will be putting an offer out next summer for Dennis similar to what we saw them do for Crabbe this summer.

[MaceCase]

So some reporter already demonstrated their lack of knowledge on the subject by mentioning poison pills and 3rd year options so your fallback is to double down with another reporter that offers nothing but "the contract is untradeable" without an iota of reasoning or examples to back it up. Okay.


Lost in all of this is that Crabbe will continue to be a Blazer.....

Yes, a team with massive multi year contracts already tied into Lillard, McCollum, and Turner, no future cap space and impending luxury tax payments still matched the offer on their RFA but uhhhh tell me again how the Hawks are at risk of losing Dennis.

[Jamaaliver]

So some reporter already demonstrated their lack of knowledge on the subject...so your fallback is to double down with another reporter?

Okay.

...tell me again how the Hawks are at risk of losing Dennis.

Just because a single reporter used a term incorrectly doesn't mean every reporter everywhere is wrong. I utilized their insider relationships to confirm that there will be competition for DS. If he signs an offer sheet from Brooklyn or another desperate team next summer...we could end up matching a contract with less than ideal amenities added on. (trade kicker, player option)

You've, very eloquently, stated your position and given me a lot to think about. But seeing how things went this Free Agency, I'd rather not let another team even get a shot at our top players.

I'd prefer we extend Korver and Dennis now and move Millsap at the opportune time.

THJ...I no longer care what we do with him.


NOTE: Because a new collective bargaining agreement could be in place by next year's Free Agency, I'd implore our front office to take the necessary steps now to keep control of the player and the situation.

[MaceCase]

And that would be incredibly foolish because you'd eliminate flexibility in 2017.

Lost in all of your doomsaying and lack of CBA knowledge is that the Hawks can simply tell Dennis this:

We won't extend you now but we value you enough to even offer you a 5 year deal. Be patient and allow us the ability to build a stronger team around you and Dwight before we go over the cap to resign you. You're not going to find a better deal elsewhere than what we can give you.

And if you do happen to sign with someone else...



We'll match.


Because nobody gives a **** about trade kickers or options, they even cancel each other out and can be waived at any point.

[Jamaaliver]

And that would be incredibly foolish because you'd eliminate flexibility in 2017.

tell Dennis this:

We won't extend you now but we value you enough to even offer you a 5 year deal. Be patient and allow us the ability to build a stronger team around you and Dwight before we go over the cap to resign you. You're not going to find a better deal elsewhere than what we can give you.

And if you do happen to sign with someone else...We'll match.

And all of this is reasonable...no one is saying otherwise.

I simply believe there is enough incentive to get negotiations done now. I don't believe in letting top players reach Free Agency. The 'poison pill' provision is only an issue until the start of the 2017-2018 Fiscal Year. Extending him now could allow us to package him in potential trades for a talent upgrade.

Question: Are you of the opinion that Dennis is, undoubtedly, a max-caliber player?

[MaceCase]

How in the world can anyone look at the contracts being handed out over the last two seasons even question whether any rotation player in the NBA is a "max-caliber player"?

If you are of the opinion otherwise then you just can't face reality.

[Jamaaliver]

If you are of the opinion otherwise then you just can't face reality.

LOL.

Ummm...ok.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM Forums

[Jamaaliver]

Giannis Antetokounmpo has agreed to a contract extension before entering his restricted Free Agency. He was drafted the same year as Dennis and THJr.

I'm hopeful we can get DS to agree to a similar extension, thus saving us some trouble next summer:

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Milwaukee Bucks forward Giannis Antetokounmpo has agreed to a four-year, $100 million extension, league sources told The Vertical.

The deal, which is nearly a maximum contract, is expected to be signed on Tuesday in Milwaukee.

The 6-foot-11 Antetokounmpo was selected with the 15th overall pick in the 2013 NBA draft and averaged 16.9 points, 7.7 rebounds. 4.3 assists and 1.4 blocks in 80 games last season.

Here

By locking him up now, the Bucks appear to have avoided paying the max. Maximum salaries and cap figures for 2017/18 won’t be set until next July, but the NBA’s latest projection would mean a starting max salary of about $24MM for ’17/18, with subsequent raises of $1.8MM annually — Antetokounmpo will make a little less than that.

...Antetokounmpo is the second player entering the final year of his rookie contract to reach an agreement on an extension this offseason, joining C.J. McCollum of the Trail Blazers.

Here

[D21]

But Giannis has played a lot, as starter, and proved more than Dennis.
Maybe we can extend Dennis now, but it would be more risky to offer him the same contract...

[xccelerate]

Dennis @ $25m/per would horrific. He needs to make something close to Bazemore