Kyrie Irving

[atlantabbq99]

It took 2-3 years of AWFUL GMing to reduce a 60 team to what we now have. Got to expect at least that long with good GMing before expecting to be that good again.

I can't believe I'm actually defending the Bud/Cox regime here...

But it wasn't awful GMing that led us to this point.

It was apathy.
And old age.
And Free Agency.

The front office tried clinging to the same core after 2015. The players defected summer after summer. Until the core wore down to just Kent Bazemore and Dennis the Menace.

Lack of foresight doomed this franchise to its current state. Which is what happens when a man -- focused solely on the present -- is placed in charge of the future.

There is no defending the Hawks GMing since DF left. They inherrited the second best team in the east and turned it into last season's edition. If the FO had done what it took to add to that 60 win team....nada. Everyone is gone. Bad drafting, bad FA choices, letting AS caliber players walk for nothing, waffleing on decisions, FO strife, Ressler stepping in and putting his foot in his mouth (trying to cover for Budcox fiasco), FO sent packing.......and team left in shambles

No defending Budcox"s FO tenure. NBA worst level. Only good thing, it only lasted two years. Go coach Bud though and TS and Ressler...

Ferry built a team of old vets with a small window. Their isn't anything wrong with the franchise transitioning from the Millsap era to the Schroder/Collins era.

[Jamaaliver]

Ferry built a team of old vets with a small window. Their isn't anything wrong with the franchise transitioning from the Millsap era to the Schroder/Collins era.

Transition is a kind word considering the three top execs in BBall Ops were all relieved of their duties for crafting a declining product. (They were either fired for being bad at their jobs, or they resigned for being bad at their jobs.)

The hard truth...the 60 win season was a pure outlier.

The last 5 years of our playoff streak, we averaged 46 wins a season.

The first 4 years of the playoff streak we averaged 45 wins a season.

We have always been mediocre. The only difference is, now we have an owner who actually expects us to compete at a higher level.

NOTE: I did not include the 40-26 record from the lock-out shortened 2012 season.

[Jamaaliver]

Add'l NOTE: There's a good chance the 'Dennis Schroder era' doesn't last more than another season or two.

[kg01]

Add'l NOTE: There's a good chance the 'Dennis Schroder era' doesn't last more than another season or two.

What makes you say that? I'm not challenging you. Just curious.

On your general sentiment w.r.t. our playoff streak, I kinda agree. People get enamored with the 60-win season but that was more of an anomaly than a lot of us seem willing to believe. The 45-46 win average you put forth illustrates that.

It's why I don't get too worked up about how we 'failed to capitalize' on that team or whatever. At no point did anyone consider that team a real contender.

Just like BOS this past season, they just were never in danger of making the Finals past CLE absent a catastrophic injury. Truth be told, CLE had 2 catastrophic injuries and we still weren't more than a fly on their windshield. What makes people think (a) we had to keep them together at all costs or (2) we had to net fifty-leven lotto picks for them? That was never reality. On that @atlantabbq99 is correct. There was a short window for that team. Not even a window. More like a crack in the screen door.

That said, I'm optimistic about the direction we're taking. We don't appear to be simply fighting to maintain. We're actually trying to amass a talented squad.

[macd-gm]

We had a 60 win season because we were top 3 in the league in 3 point shooting. And we played decent D. That is still the recipe that all the top teams are using. The front office either lost sight or failed to build a roster with those strengths. What if we had traded for JR instead of the Cavs. It could have happened. What if we had replaced Demarre with another legit long range threat rather than bench players like Thabo and Baze. There are things we could have done to build on that season but we tried to hold onto who we had and when we lost someone we tried to replace them with a cheaper (worser) version.

[kg01]

We had a 60 win season because we were top 3 in the league in 3 point shooting. And we played decent D. That is still the recipe that all the top teams are using. The front office either lost sight or failed to build a roster with those strengths. What if we had traded for JR instead of the Cavs. It could have happened. What if we had replaced Demarre with another legit long range threat rather than bench players like Thabo and Baze. There are things we could have done to build on that season but we tried to hold onto who we had and when we lost someone we tried to replace them with a cheaper (worser) version.

I'd say that's the recipe to having a good regular season team. Not the complete recipe to having a champion.

The changes you suggest would help us maintain a good playoff seed, not a champion.

[tbhawksfan1]

could have gone into the tax and really tried to compete

[Jamaaliver]

Add'l NOTE: There's a good chance the 'Dennis Schroder era' doesn't last more than another season or two.

What makes you say that? I'm not challenging you. Just curious.

Little background. I've rooted for this kid for years. I wanted to push Teague out and give Dennis the keys after the 60 win season.

I just see Trav as a pragmatist with carte blanche to build his ideal team...by any means necessary.

• He's mentioned the GS model and style of play for what he's aiming to build. I have doubts Dennis can play that style.
  
• Dennis is also the single most valuable trade asset we have right now.
  
• I see him drafting guys who can play his preferred style of ball. Not drafting guys who can fit best around Dennis Schroder.

[kg01]

could have gone into the tax and really tried to compete

That's easy to say, harder to truly put into an actionable plan. What, specifically, do you think they should and could have done. Go into the tax to keep Demarre? That wouldn't have been competing.

[tbhawksfan1]

or traded players before expiring deadline to get younger/better quicker

[Jamaaliver]

or traded players before expiring deadline to get younger/better quicker

This is the great sin of the Bud/Cox era.

And by all accounts...it was Budenholzer preventing the front office from taking this approach.

[kg01]

or traded players before expiring deadline to get younger/better quicker

I got no beef with your criticism here. I think, as many others stated, that's where having Budz in charge hurt us mightily.

Ferry's poor drafting hurt us more but that's a whole other conversation.

[Jamaaliver]

Ferry's poor drafting hurt us more but that's a whole other conversation.

Lord, yes.

Whenever I hear people singing Ferry's praises, I immediately think to the poor drafting. Jenkins and Payne in particular.

[atlantabbq99]

^^ when the Hawks transition from the Josh Smith era to the Millsap era, their was also growing pains for two season. Their isn't anything wrong with possible growing pains from the Millsap era to the Schroder/Collins era.

[macd-gm]

There have been players that were good that were moved during our window of opportunity. We didn't get involved because we were scared to part with anything but then Demarre, Horford, Sap all walk for nothing.

Dragic, Batum, Isaiah

Tons of solid role players were traded for little to nothing. You have to build with something.

[Jamaaliver]

^^ when the Hawks transition from the Josh Smith era to the Millsap era, their was also growing pains for two season.

.....that is some serious revisionist history.

The first season suffered because of Al Horford's injury.

The second season we won 60 games.


(Highly controversial statement alert)
There was no Paul Millsap era. He blossomed in his 4 years here. But the team was pretty mediocre throughout his tenure. Save for a single 2 month span.

His presence and emergence never changed our franchise.

He joined a mediocre 44 win team.
He left a mediocre 43 win team.

[kg01]

^^ when the Hawks transition from the Josh Smith era to the Millsap era, their was also growing pains for two season.

.....that is some serious revisionist history.

The first season suffered because of Al Horford's injury.

The second season we won 60 games.


(Highly controversial statement alert)
There was no Paul Millsap era. He blossomed in his 4 years here. But the team was pretty mediocre throughout his tenure. Save for a single 2 month span.

His presence and emergence never changed our franchise.

He joined a mediocre 44 win team. He left a mediocre 43 win team.

Well, generally speaking, he's not wrong in that we should expect to see some growing pains early. I think that was his overall point, I guess.

I don't disagree with your Sap comment. I really liked him here but I'm not losing sleep over that page having been turned. Better a year or two early than 3 years late.

[jayu70]

I can't believe I'm actually defending the Bud/Cox regime here...

But it wasn't awful GMing that led us to this point.

It was apathy.
And old age.
And Free Agency.

The front office tried clinging to the same core after 2015. The players defected summer after summer. Until the core wore down to just Kent Bazemore and Dennis the Menace.

Lack of foresight doomed this franchise to its current state. Which is what happens when a man -- focused solely on the present -- is placed in charge of the future.

There is no defending the Hawks GMing since DF left. They inherrited the second best team in the east and turned it into last season's edition. If the FO had done what it took to add to that 60 win team....nada. Everyone is gone. Bad drafting, bad FA choices, letting AS caliber players walk for nothing, waffleing on decisions, FO strife, Ressler stepping in and putting his foot in his mouth (trying to cover for Budcox fiasco), FO sent packing.......and team left in shambles

No defending Budcox"s FO tenure. NBA worst level. Only good thing, it only lasted two years. Go coach Bud though and TS and Ressler...

It's maddening that people think it's this simple.

Agreed. Ferry would have had the same choice between keeping DMC or Millsap because of the 2 year deals he gave them (granted he did offer them longer deals) and had only Early Bird Rights. There was nothing to be done unless the both took less money. It would have required making other roster moves (moving Teague or Korver and Scott) to pay DMC his $15 million and sap his $20 million. There was no exceeding the cap narrative available to resign both.

[kg01]

There is no defending the Hawks GMing since DF left. They inherrited the second best team in the east and turned it into last season's edition. If the FO had done what it took to add to that 60 win team....nada. Everyone is gone. Bad drafting, bad FA choices, letting AS caliber players walk for nothing, waffleing on decisions, FO strife, Ressler stepping in and putting his foot in his mouth (trying to cover for Budcox fiasco), FO sent packing.......and team left in shambles

No defending Budcox"s FO tenure. NBA worst level. Only good thing, it only lasted two years. Go coach Bud though and TS and Ressler...

It's maddening that people think it's this simple.

Agreed. Ferry would have had the same choice between keeping DMC or Millsap because of the 2 year deals he gave them (granted he did offer them longer deals) and had only Early Bird Rights. There was nothing to be done unless the both took less money. It would have required making other roster moves (moving Teague or Korver and Scott) to pay DMC his $15 million and sap his $20 million. There was no exceeding the cap narrative available to resign both.

Yup. I definitely get that, at the end of the day, we don't have much to show for that team. However, if you look at it deeper, it's understandable. I don't like it but it is what it is.

The worst part is non-Hawks fans who weigh in but have no idea what they're talking about. "Bwah, Hawks're cheap. See, see, see, they let Demarre Carroll walk ... blah, blah, bleh." Then, in the next breath, talk about how TOR was dumb for paying him since he was oft-injured. SMH

We have not been cheap. We've just paid the wrong dudes.

[macd-gm]

It's not about cheap though it's about smart. Obviously hindsight but we just didn't turn valuable players into a future. And it's not like that's completely hindsight. Many were expressing that at the time. They should have seen that Horford leaving was a strong possibility when they knew they weren't going to offer him the max. Sap had already shown his preference for staying in Atlanta. A trade of Horford would possibly have netted talent for the future