Hawks unveiling new offense this season?

[macd-gm]

Everything went well that 60 win season (until it didn't).

Maybe, just maybe that was an outlier and not the norm.

Bingo!

Budenholzer has spent the better part of 2 years attempting to recreate that season. When, it's fairly undeniable at this point,it was an outlier.

Hard truth: everything Bud's done outside of that outlier of a season...has been average to sub-par.

What? And I thought we agreed on most stuff.

His teams have still over performed. Look at the lack of talent we have been fielding. I agree that the 60 win season was somewhat of an outlier but the other seasons were good showings for the roster we had. I don't think Bud's first season or this past one would have been playoff years had it not been for Bud's coaching. We probably had the worst 1-3, starters and bench, in the league last year.

[jayu70]

Everything went well that 60 win season (until it didn't).

Maybe, just maybe that was an outlier and not the norm.

Bingo!

Budenholzer has spent the better part of 2 years attempting to recreate that season. When, it's fairly undeniable at this point,it was an outlier.

Hard truth: everything Bud's done outside of that outlier of a season...has been average to sub-par.

What? And I thought we agreed on most stuff.

His teams have still over performed. Look at the lack of talent we have been fielding. I agree that the 60 win season was somewhat of an outlier but the other seasons were good showings for the roster we had. I don't think Bud's first season or this past one would have been playoff years had it not been for Bud's coaching. We probably had the worst 1-3, starters and bench, in the league last year.

Agree with that premise. The teams Bud had based on personnel have always overachieved based on the talent compared to the rest of the league.
Once Dwight came on board, I suspected things would really change. Dwight was not a facilitator, he couldn't shoot with any range and just not a player that moves unless is to try and score. Plus how many lost possessions because he couldn't hold unto the ball.

[kg01]

Everything went well that 60 win season (until it didn't).

Maybe, just maybe that was an outlier and not the norm.

Bingo!

Budenholzer has spent the better part of 2 years attempting to recreate that season. When, it's fairly undeniable at this point,it was an outlier.

Hard truth: everything Bud's done outside of that outlier of a season...has been average to sub-par.

What? And I thought we agreed on most stuff.

His teams have still over performed. Look at the lack of talent we have been fielding. I agree that the 60 win season was somewhat of an outlier but the other seasons were good showings for the roster we had. I don't think Bud's first season or this past one would have been playoff years had it not been for Bud's coaching. We probably had the worst 1-3, starters and bench, in the league last year.

I don't think calling that season an outlier (which it clearly was) is representative of a lack of understanding that Budz' teams have typically overachieved. I think this upcoming year will be a clear example of that. JMEO

[jayu70]

The outlier was winning 19 straight games. But it wasn't just the offensive efficiency. Defense played a big role in those games.

[Jamaaliver]

Hard truth: everything Bud's done outside of that outlier of a season...has been average to sub-par.

What? And I thought we agreed on most stuff.

His teams have still over performed. Look at the lack of talent we have been fielding. I agree that the 60 win season was somewhat of an outlier but the other seasons were good showings for the roster we had. I don't think Bud's first season or this past one would have been playoff years had it not been for Bud's coaching. We probably had the worst 1-3, starters and bench, in the league last year.

Yeah, we have been in agreement more than maybe anyone since you got here.

And I should specify, I was speaking more 'average to sub-par' offensively than anything else.

His teams have over performed. Last year's team is a perfect example.

Code: Select all

Hawks were one of only three teams that finished with a winning record and a negative point differential. Only Orlando had a bigger differential between their actual win total and their "expected" wins (based on point differential). The Hawks were 43-39, [b]with point differential of a team that was 38-44[/b].

Is the 'bromance' over because I think Budenholzer is a mediocre offensive coach?

[Jamaaliver]

From the season after the #1 seed:

Tom Haberstroh had this to say about an "underachieving" Hawks team to this point:

But the reality is the Hawks have underachieved so far. No one reasonably expected another 60-win season, but the Hawks are on target to finish a startling 13 wins off their 2014-15 total.

ESPN Insider

Mark Bradley of AJC's thoughts:

[The Hawks] aren’t the same...but it’s not just the record. It’s how they look. There’s none of that soaring stuff that moved us to wax rhapsodic during their undefeated January 2015. They’re no longer the team that carried pace-and-space to idyllic extremes. They’re just another halfway decent club.

myAJC

From last season:

Read on Twitter

Hawks’ mounting losses now of historic proportions

The Hawks are fighting an epidemic – of their own making.

While most players declined to say the team [is] folding under pressure as the offense struggles game after game and shot after shot misses its mark. But it’s clear there is a building stress. The struggle has gotten in their heads.

The Hawks patented ball-movement offense – where a good shot gets passed up for a great shot – has nearly vanished. There have been glimpses of the system working much as it has the previous three seasons. Glimpses won’t get it done in the NBA.

The Hawks average margin of defeat in the nine most recent losses is 16.8 points per game.

The Hawks have missed plenty of shots. They shot under 40 percent from the field and 25 percent from 3-point range in each of the last two losses. Compounding the Hawks’ missed shots is that too many are not quality attempts or come out of isolation plays. The Hawks patented ball-movement offense – where a good shot gets passed up for a great shot – has nearly vanished.

Here

[jayu70]

More on the new offense:

The Hawks are still fine-tuning their new offensive system.

“I think there is more space for guys to attack and get to the paint,” Budenholzer said today at shootaround. “That’s probably the biggest thing. I don’t think we are playing with the pace we need to, and the screening needs to improve offensively. I think they are still in the learning phase. We want to give then a lot of freedom and some randomness to the offense but you have to learn it first. Then when you learn it you can play it more freely and more random.

[ATL Boy]

On underrated improvement in the offense this season as opposed to last season will be Dedmon's passing ability.

Last year whenever Dwight caught a pass on the pick and roll (when he wasn't setting lazy screens and demanding the ball in the post) the end of the possession was right there with Dwight taking the shot.

Dedmon has the vision and passing ability to make that extra pass to the open 3 point shooter on those pick and rolls. The extra pass was always a point of emphasis when the Hawks were at their best, and it just couldn't be made with Dwight Howard involved in the play.


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[kg01]

On underrated improvement in the offense this season as opposed to last season will be Dedmon's passing ability.

Last year whenever Dwight caught a pass on the pick and roll (when he wasn't setting lazy screens and demanding the ball in the post) the end of the possession was right there with Dwight taking the shot.

Dedmon has the vision and passing ability to make that extra pass to the open 3 point shooter on those pick and rolls. The extra pass was always a point of emphasis when the Hawks were at their best, and it just couldn't be made with Dwight Howard involved in the play.


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Willingness to pass is a big deal. Also his ability to actually make layups. Quiet as it's kept, Howard had no touch around the basket. Zero. Totally incapable of simply playing the ball off the glass for a simply layup.

It was maddening watching him be in perfect position to just lay the ball up and see him basically fire a 100mph fastball off the square hoping it would ricochet in the right general direction.

[macd-gm]

Dedmon is serious. We should really lock him up on a multi year deal if we can. I haven't found much to not like about his game and he doesn't take any possessions off even in pre-season. For the life of me i can't figure out why the Wiz or Raps didn't sign him. He's much better than what they are rolling with.

As far as the new offense i've got to say that Collins is impressive here even beyond the dunks. The guy moves and puts a lot of pressure on the defense. He's still making rookie mistakes but i'm drinking the kool aid for sure.

I also think Babbitt is going to excel in this system. I know from the box score it looks like he sucked but he's going to get good looks from 3. And he's a big guy to guard if he's at the 3. He's not out there to make friends either which i like.

[Jamaaliver]

Dedmon does indeed look like a diamond in the rough and could pair well with Bagley, Ayton, or Porter long-term.

I have to think some contender in need of a defensive big is gonna come hard for him at the trade deadline, though. Making us an offer we can't refuse.

NOTE: I'm not crazy about Dedmon spending so much time hanging around. the perimeter, though.

[macd-gm]

Dedmon does indeed look like a diamond in the rough and could pair well with Bagley, Ayton, or Porter long-term.

I have to think some contender in need of a defensive big is gonna come hard for him at the trade deadline, though. Making us an offer we can't refuse.

NOTE: I'm not crazy about Dedmon spending so much time hanging around. the perimeter, though.

Obviously Bud's orders. They are trying to open the lane up and it's working fairly well. The whole team has problems finding the open guy at the 3 point line when they drive though. You can talk about GS of course but really it's what Cleveland does well too. Drive, kick, swing the ball. Our kicks suck right now. Partially because the shooters are pretty stationary rather than sliding to an open spot when their defender sags toward the basket. This is my extremely un-expert opinion.

[jayu70]

On underrated improvement in the offense this season as opposed to last season will be Dedmon's passing ability.

Last year whenever Dwight caught a pass on the pick and roll (when he wasn't setting lazy screens and demanding the ball in the post) the end of the possession was right there with Dwight taking the shot.

Dedmon has the vision and passing ability to make that extra pass to the open 3 point shooter on those pick and rolls. The extra pass was always a point of emphasis when the Hawks were at their best, and it just couldn't be made with Dwight Howard involved in the play.


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Willingness to pass is a big deal. Also his ability to actually make layups. Quiet as it's kept, Howard had no touch around the basket. Zero. Totally incapable of simply playing the ball off the glass for a simply layup.

It was maddening watching him be in perfect position to just lay the ball up and see him basically fire a 100mph fastball off the square hoping it would ricochet in the right general direction.

Willingness and actual ability to pass - Dwight just couldn't.

[jayu70]

Dedmon does indeed look like a diamond in the rough and could pair well with Bagley, Ayton, or Porter long-term.

I have to think some contender in need of a defensive big is gonna come hard for him at the trade deadline, though. Making us an offer we can't refuse.
NOTE: I'm not crazy about Dedmon spending so much time hanging around. the perimeter, though.

What would you consider an offer we can't refuse?

[Jamaaliver]

Dedmon does indeed look like a diamond in the rough and could pair well with Bagley, Ayton, or Porter long-term.

I have to think some contender in need of a defensive big is gonna come hard for him at the trade deadline, though. Making us an offer we can't refuse.

NOTE: I'm not crazy about Dedmon spending so much time hanging around. the perimeter, though.

Obviously Bud's orders. They are trying to open the lane up and it's working fairly well. The whole team has problems finding the open guy at the 3 point line when they drive though. You can talk about GS of course but really it's what Cleveland does well too. Drive, kick, swing the ball. Our kicks suck right now. Partially because the shooters are pretty stationary rather than sliding to an open spot when their defender sags toward the basket. This is my extremely un-expert opinion.

Yeah, all of this sounds about right. There was some fierce debate here over the years about who was responsible for Horford and other centers spending so much time away from the paint on offense.

Clearly, it's a scheme design and what Bud wants from his bigs.

In the past, we've been league worst in offensive rebounding as a result. Hopefully, this issue won't re-appear with Dedmon doing his best AL Horford impression.

[ATL Boy]

Dedmon does indeed look like a diamond in the rough and could pair well with Bagley, Ayton, or Porter long-term.

I have to think some contender in need of a defensive big is gonna come hard for him at the trade deadline, though. Making us an offer we can't refuse.
NOTE: I'm not crazy about Dedmon spending so much time hanging around. the perimeter, though.

What would you consider an offer we can't refuse?

A first round pick for me


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[jayu70]

Dedmon does indeed look like a diamond in the rough and could pair well with Bagley, Ayton, or Porter long-term.

I have to think some contender in need of a defensive big is gonna come hard for him at the trade deadline, though. Making us an offer we can't refuse.

NOTE: I'm not crazy about Dedmon spending so much time hanging around. the perimeter, though.

Obviously Bud's orders. They are trying to open the lane up and it's working fairly well. The whole team has problems finding the open guy at the 3 point line when they drive though. You can talk about GS of course but really it's what Cleveland does well too. Drive, kick, swing the ball. Our kicks suck right now. Partially because the shooters are pretty stationary rather than sliding to an open spot when their defender sags toward the basket. This is my extremely un-expert opinion.

Yeah, all of this sounds about right. There was some fierce debate here over the years about who was responsible for Horford and other centers spending so much time away from the paint on offense.

Clearly, it's a scheme design and what Bud wants from his bigs.

In the past, we've been league worst in offensive rebounding as a result. Hopefully, this issue won't re-appear with Dedmon doing his best AL Horford impression.

Part of the reason for not-offensive rebounding was getting back on defense.
No excuse for DEFENSIVE rebounding on the other end though - that was the issue.

[jayu70]

Dedmon does indeed look like a diamond in the rough and could pair well with Bagley, Ayton, or Porter long-term.

I have to think some contender in need of a defensive big is gonna come hard for him at the trade deadline, though. Making us an offer we can't refuse.
NOTE: I'm not crazy about Dedmon spending so much time hanging around. the perimeter, though.

What would you consider an offer we can't refuse?

A first round pick for me


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All 1st round picks aren't equal though.

[ATL Boy]

What would you consider an offer we can't refuse?

A first round pick for me


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All 1st round picks aren't equal though.

Dedmon is expiring and if he plays well enough to coax a first rounder out of anyone then he'll be in line for be kind of payday that Schlenk might not be comfortable with. I'd be fine with any first rounder to give us 4 firsts in this year's draft.


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[Jamaaliver]

What would you consider an offer we can't refuse?

A first round pick for me.

Agreed. A cheap, young player with actual upside would also be appealing.

(I'm keeping an eye on the Marcus Smart situation this season. Dedmon plus a future 2nd rounder for Smart would be an intriguing trade option.)