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Rebuild reality and doin it right

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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#301 » by Hawkamanic81 » Sat Feb 9, 2019 11:35 pm

Trae Young: C+

Sorry, Luka looks to be alot better. Sure Trae can score, but the league has many young players that can score and score more efficiently than Trae. Trae is a really good passer, but turnover prone.

John Collins: A-

Collins has quickly turned into a 20/10 player with really good outside shooting. He needs more defensive presence.

Kevin Hueter: B+

He has often been compared to Klay Thompson. I'm not sure he will score at the same levet, but he looks to be a well balance player.

Spellman: B

Somewhere between a Green and a RodneyRogers of sorts. Good potential for the draft spot.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#302 » by Atlanta Hawk Fan » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:50 am

EazyRoc wrote:
Atlanta Hawk Fan wrote:
EazyRoc wrote:None of those teams had a superstar caliber player.


Chris Paul's Clippers NO and Clippers teams are another example of also rans with nice regular season success but that were total non-contenders.

About 8 50+ win seasons
56 wins - three times
57 wins
Paul - 1st Team All-NBA numerous times

Never a contender.

The Bucks may be contenders on the backs of Giannis and a more well rounded roster being smartly utilized by Bud but they have to prove it. Until they actually contend, they are merely a much more dangerous team in the regular season and on paper for the playoffs.
I don’t know about that one AHF. The talking heads always considered the Clips contenders at that time. They had bad luck with injuries and match ups IIRC, but they were legit.


Come on. Anyone who believed those guys were going to emerge from the West was delusional. They were like last year Raptors. Nobody believed they would beat San Antonio, Miami and the other true contenders during that time.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#303 » by King Ken » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:54 am

gurpilo wrote:No big FA is going to come here and I do not see any good FA to fill the hole at SF and C, I would try to resign Dedmon and buils through draft, any of Barret, Reddish or Little and any of Bol if healthy, Bassey, Fernando or Gafford in that order for me would be dream scenario

None of those bigs are ready to even crack a rotation next season. Although I am interested in Fernando, he is not ready. Not even close at this stage.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#304 » by High 5 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:41 am

Atlanta Hawk Fan wrote:
EazyRoc wrote:
Atlanta Hawk Fan wrote:
Chris Paul's Clippers NO and Clippers teams are another example of also rans with nice regular season success but that were total non-contenders.

About 8 50+ win seasons
56 wins - three times
57 wins
Paul - 1st Team All-NBA numerous times

Never a contender.

The Bucks may be contenders on the backs of Giannis and a more well rounded roster being smartly utilized by Bud but they have to prove it. Until they actually contend, they are merely a much more dangerous team in the regular season and on paper for the playoffs.
I don’t know about that one AHF. The talking heads always considered the Clips contenders at that time. They had bad luck with injuries and match ups IIRC, but they were legit.


Come on. Anyone who believed those guys were going to emerge from the West was delusional. They were like last year Raptors. Nobody believed they would beat San Antonio, Miami and the other true contenders during that time.


They did beat SA and then they had one of the all-time great chokes against Houston. They had a big rivalry with GS that everyone was excited to see.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#305 » by Atlanta Hawk Fan » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:51 pm

High 5 wrote:
Atlanta Hawk Fan wrote:
EazyRoc wrote: I don’t know about that one AHF. The talking heads always considered the Clips contenders at that time. They had bad luck with injuries and match ups IIRC, but they were legit.


Come on. Anyone who believed those guys were going to emerge from the West was delusional. They were like last year Raptors. Nobody believed they would beat San Antonio, Miami and the other true contenders during that time.


They did beat SA and then they had one of the all-time great chokes against Houston. They had a big rivalry with GS that everyone was excited to see.


Here is their playoff history. The most dominant playoff series they ever had was a first round 4-3 victory. Please tell me when they become contenders:

Swept 4-0 in second round by SAS (4-7 overall playoff record)
Lost 4-2 in first round to Memphis (6-11 overall playoff record)
Lost 4-2 in second round to OKC (12-18 overall playoff record)
Lost 4-3 in second round to HOU (19-25 overall playoff record)
Lost 4-2 in first round to Portland (21-29 overall playoff record)
Lost 4-3 in first round to Utah (24-33 overall playoff record)
Playoff W%: 42%

By this measure the Hawks must have been championship contenders because we made it to the second round about every other year for a while too.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#306 » by High 5 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:22 am

Atlanta Hawk Fan wrote:
High 5 wrote:
Atlanta Hawk Fan wrote:
Come on. Anyone who believed those guys were going to emerge from the West was delusional. They were like last year Raptors. Nobody believed they would beat San Antonio, Miami and the other true contenders during that time.


They did beat SA and then they had one of the all-time great chokes against Houston. They had a big rivalry with GS that everyone was excited to see.


Here is their playoff history. The most dominant playoff series they ever had was a first round 4-3 victory. Please tell me when they become contenders:

Swept 4-0 in second round by SAS (4-7 overall playoff record)
Lost 4-2 in first round to Memphis (6-11 overall playoff record)
Lost 4-2 in second round to OKC (12-18 overall playoff record)
Lost 4-3 in second round to HOU (19-25 overall playoff record)
Lost 4-2 in first round to Portland (21-29 overall playoff record)
Lost 4-3 in first round to Utah (24-33 overall playoff record)
Playoff W%: 42%

By this measure the Hawks must have been championship contenders because we made it to the second round about every other year for a while too.


We're talking about whether or not they were ever considered contenders by most. They were. They just had injury and choking problems. And let me know when the Hawks ever came close to beating a team on SA's level.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#307 » by Atlanta Hawk Fan » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:45 am

High 5 wrote:
Atlanta Hawk Fan wrote:
High 5 wrote:
They did beat SA and then they had one of the all-time great chokes against Houston. They had a big rivalry with GS that everyone was excited to see.


Here is their playoff history. The most dominant playoff series they ever had was a first round 4-3 victory. Please tell me when they become contenders:

Swept 4-0 in second round by SAS (4-7 overall playoff record)
Lost 4-2 in first round to Memphis (6-11 overall playoff record)
Lost 4-2 in second round to OKC (12-18 overall playoff record)
Lost 4-3 in second round to HOU (19-25 overall playoff record)
Lost 4-2 in first round to Portland (21-29 overall playoff record)
Lost 4-3 in first round to Utah (24-33 overall playoff record)
Playoff W%: 42%

By this measure the Hawks must have been championship contenders because we made it to the second round about every other year for a while too.


We're talking about whether or not they were ever considered contenders by most. They were. They just had injury and choking problems. And let me know when the Hawks ever came close to beating a team on SA's level.


I'll agree to disagree. I don't think they were at any point viewed as contenders. I think they were viewed as a dark horse in the West that could make a deep run if things went well but very few people not related to the Clippers players expected them in the NBA Finals.

They were always in the second tier of teams in the West.

I just pulled up playoff odds from 2014 as an example. That was at their prime. Here were the odds at the start of the playoffs:

1 - Miami
2 - SAS
3 - OKC
4 - Pacers

So according to the odds makers, the Clippers were not favored to even make the conference finals let alone win a ring.

Coming into the next year (2014-15)? Same thing. Not in the top 4.

That seems to be the case at every year I looked at as a matter of fact. Clippers were never in the top 4 either pre-season or entering the playoffs among the years I just reviewed. How can they be considered contenders when people didn't believe they would even make the conference finals either pre-season or after the regular season (correctly as it turned out)?

They didn't have a winning record a single year of their run. I can't see how anyone could view a team that struggled to win in the first round as a true contender.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#308 » by High 5 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:07 am

Being considered a top 3 team in the stacked WC has been contender status for a long time before KD joined the Warriors.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#309 » by Atlanta Hawk Fan » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:26 pm

High 5 wrote:Being considered a top 3 team in the stacked WC has been contender status for a long time before KD joined the Warriors.


When you are a coin flip whether you are making it out of the first round of the playoffs, you aren't a contender. They never made it on the court and never were a legit threat for a ring. They were a second tier Western conference team at their peak. No shame in that.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#310 » by High 5 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:45 pm

Atlanta Hawk Fan wrote:
High 5 wrote:Being considered a top 3 team in the stacked WC has been contender status for a long time before KD joined the Warriors.


When you are a coin flip whether you are making it out of the first round of the playoffs, you aren't a contender. They never made it on the court and never were a legit threat for a ring. They were a second tier Western conference team at their peak. No shame in that.


You're back to results instead of perception. We can agree to disagree. I've been in these never-ending arguments with you before. :lol:
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#311 » by Atlanta Hawk Fan » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:47 pm

Media:

Contenders or Pretenders?

Pretenders
https://uproxx.com/dimemag/the-los-angeles-clippers-contender-or-pretender/

Verdict: Pretenders
The Clippers can take solace in being the best team to call the Staples Center home, but they won’t be raising a banner this year. The 17-game winning streak was largely against non-playoff teams, and they have struggled against the top three teams in the league. As exciting as Lob City has been for the past two seasons, the Clippers are still a limited team.


Pretenders
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1889140-are-la-clippers-contenders-or-pretenders

Right now, the Clippers just don't belong in that elite group of contenders.

L.A. needs a backbone. Adversity is unavoidable, but good teams know how to respond to it.

It needs more hands in the half-court pot. Paul can't always be called on to make magic out of thin air.

The Clippers need to find the focus, intensity and heart of a champion—three items that most assumed were part of Rivers' luggage.

But the coach can't change these players; that transformation only comes from within.

Those championship talks are running through the streets of L.A. for a reason. But until these players fully believe in themselves and trust one another, that chatter will never be anything more than empty words.


https://www.zeroussports.com/nba-separating-the-contenders-from-the-pretenders-467/

Los Angeles Clippers
Right now, the Los Angeles Clippers are coasting in the Western Conference. Whilst that’s not mean feat, it is a danger come playoffs time, just like they have found out previously.

In their past few playoffs runs, despite an impressive coaching staff and roster, they have still failed to make the WCF, and time and patience will start to wear thin if they don’t get at least that far this year.

Off what we’ve seen, the Clippers look like a team that has no clue how to win in the playoffs, with Chris Paul attempting to fly solo in late game situations and Doc Rivers coming up with nothing convincing on the offensive end.

Verdict – pretender


https://www.hoopsjunction.com/clippers-will-not-win-title/

They have the talent to win a title, however lack the discipline it takes to win at the highest level. Doc Rivers knows this that is why his voice is always hoarse from yelling at his guys.


Love the Clippers blogger calling them pretenders here: :lol:

D.J. Foster, ClipperBlog: Pretenders. The Clippers are like a boss in a video game -- scary at first glance, but flawed in obvious ways. Chris Paul doesn't discriminate enough with his distribution, Vinny Del Negro can't figure out his best lineups, and ranking 27th in 3-point percentage defense is basically a bull's-eye for sharpshooting teams like the Spurs.

Beckley Mason, ESPN.com: Pretender. This is the same team that won 17 straight games and still has two top-10 players, but I don't trust Vinny Del Negro to make the right adjustments and adjust his rotation properly in the playoffs. Especially if point guard defender extraordinaire Eric Bledsoe can't get on the court due to his health or coach's preference, this team is not ready to contend.

Andrew McNeill, 48 Minutes of Hell: Pretenders. That said, I am almost to the point of expecting this team to knock out either the Spurs or Thunder in the playoffs. But I just don't see the Clippers putting together three or four series' worth of great play.

Abbott: Pretenders, until they can demonstrate a top-10 NBA defense. Chris Paul playoff magic might get them a series, but it's too much to expect more than that without being able to get stops. In their defense, they've had about 15 minutes of practice time together. On the other hand, it's not like they're going to have a lot of time between now and the playoffs. Pressure's on, Vinny Del Negro.

Harper: Pretenders. There isn't nearly enough big-man depth on this team and its team defense has been mediocre at best for much of this young season. It's been a decade since a team ranked this low in defensive rating (2001 Lakers) made it to the Finals, and I don't see 2001 Shaquille O'Neal or 2001 Kobe Bryant on this roster. Stop the other team better and I'm willing to believe in this team this season.

LaGree: Pretenders. The Clippers have the opposite problem as the
Mavericks: They can't stop anyone from scoring. Familiarity with each other might improve team defense to a degree, but Vinny Del Negro's track record suggests a low ceiling.

Mahoney: For now, pretenders. The Clippers are absolutely a work in progress, and though there have been some reassuring signs in their evolution thus far, they have a long way to go before their defense is playoff viable. Given the talent on their roster, the Clips can certainly get there. I'd just like to see a bit more improvement in their defensive performance before granting them contending status.


Plenty of others out there as well.

I will cop to seeing a much smaller number of people proclaiming them contenders as well. Again, however, the numbers are much smaller and those recommendations usually came with big red flag caveats like this:

The Los Angeles Clippers are one of the most polarizing teams in the NBA. The talent and coaching staff is undeniably elite, but this team has been the very definition of inconsistent in 2014-15 and its past postseason appearances.

Until that erratic nature is eradicated, L.A. will have its doubters.

This is the least confident vote for any team on this list, but it’s a vote of confidence, nonetheless.


Chris Palmer, ESPN The Magazine: Contenders. But I'm kind of on the fence about these guys. First off, any time Chris Paul is on the floor in a single-digit game in the fourth, the Clippers have a shot to win it. Crazy athletic bigs and an excess of shooting and depth will make them a factor late into May. But when the game slows down, the Clips gets erratic. Won't get away with that much longer.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#312 » by High 5 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:04 pm

I like how you found a bunch of unknown fan blogs to call them pretenders and the one person I've heard of from ESPN has them as contenders. :lol: We can go back and forth all day posting articles we find on Google. I don't care nearly enough to do that, though.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#313 » by Atlanta Hawk Fan » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:40 pm

High 5 wrote:I like how you found a bunch of unknown fan blogs to call them pretenders and the one person I've heard of from ESPN has them as contenders. :lol: We can go back and forth all day posting articles we find on Google. I don't care nearly enough to do that, though.


The 7 in a single quote are all from ESPN.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#314 » by Jamaaliver » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:51 pm

Milwaukee is #1 in the league standings.

#1 in defensive efficiency

Top-5 in offensive efficiency

#1 in Net Rating

Have the presumptive front runner for Coach of the year

Have a top-5 player in the NBA

They are undeniably a contender for the title.

To say that their resume/accomplishments don't make them a contender basically means that no one outside of GSW is a contender.

Referencing the 2010 Bucks or the 2008 Hornets does nothing to change this.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#315 » by EazyRoc » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:50 pm

Atlanta Hawk Fan wrote:
High 5 wrote:I like how you found a bunch of unknown fan blogs to call them pretenders and the one person I've heard of from ESPN has them as contenders. :lol: We can go back and forth all day posting articles we find on Google. I don't care nearly enough to do that, though.


The 7 in a single quote are all from ESPN.

I just did a cursory google search to play along. The Clips were considered by media to be title contenders. They were in the conversation enough as possible winners of the West for a good 4-6 (just guessing) seasons.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#316 » by graymule » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:46 pm

:D

Super Bowl = New England.

NBA Finals = G.S. Warriors.

Of late, that has been the results. Falcons and Hawks have no chance against these two. But, we dream. What would
it take to get us up to that position?

Hawks don't now have what it takes. Not even close. Yet, we like to believe that some day, some way, we too will be
looked at as the team to beat. Right now, we're trying to grow our own. We must be very lucky and very good to do
this. No super star, free agent wants to come here.

Hopefully, the players we have and, in the future, draft or sign as free agents, will not outgrow our payroll and demand
huge raises or leave for greener pasture like some have done in the past. We can't afford to jump too soon or wait too
late. Somewhere there is a fine line where we will arrive and say, this is our year. Going for it all!

:D :D
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#317 » by Buzzard » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:20 pm

Hawkamanic81 wrote:Trae Young: C+

Sorry, Luka looks to be alot better. Sure Trae can score, but the league has many young players that can score and score more efficiently than Trae. Trae is a really good passer, but turnover prone.

John Collins: A-

Collins has quickly turned into a 20/10 player with really good outside shooting. He needs more defensive presence.

Kevin Hueter: B+

He has often been compared to Klay Thompson. I'm not sure he will score at the same levet, but he looks to be a well balance player.

Spellman: B

Somewhere between a Green and a RodneyRogers of sorts. Good potential for the draft spot.

Trae B for the season, since January an A. In that six week time frame Trae has been more efficient than Luka.

Something I posted on the ROY thread yesterday:
Last 30 days:
Luka:
23.3 PTS, 8.2 REB, 6.9 AST, 2.9 TO, .427 FG%, .700 FT%, .304 3PT%
Trae:
20.6 PTS, 4.2 REB, 8.1 AST, 3.7 TO, .453 FG%, .816 FT%, .366 3PT%

TS% for January and February.
Luka:
.530 and .551
Trae:
.577 and .551

eFG% for January and February.
Luka:
.492 and .513
Trae:
.518 and .505

Something Atlhawks09 Posted there as well:
Re: 2018/19 ROY/Rookie Discussion Thread (III)

Post#481 » by Atlhawks09 » Yesterday 12:14 pm
Trae’s first 28 games:
15.5 points, 7.2 assists, 2.7 rebounds on .377/.237/.784 (29.3 minutes per game)

Trae’s last 27 games:
18.1 points, 7.8 assists, 3.8 rebounds on .445/.393/.813 (30.5 minutes per game)

You have to pay attention to how Trae is trending. ESPN ignores him from a stat perspective but what he has been doing since January 1st is just as good as any other rookie; if not better. He has been an A grade for 6 weeks now. Luka on the other hand has been trending down.

Collins is a easy A, performing way above his draft spot.
Huerter is a B+, doing well but he needs to do more.
Spellman is a C+ I need more minutes per game to grade him any higher. I don't like per 36 stats. They are too forgiving, especially for bigs.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#318 » by Atlanta Hawk Fan » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:47 pm

EazyRoc wrote:
Atlanta Hawk Fan wrote:
High 5 wrote:I like how you found a bunch of unknown fan blogs to call them pretenders and the one person I've heard of from ESPN has them as contenders. :lol: We can go back and forth all day posting articles we find on Google. I don't care nearly enough to do that, though.


The 7 in a single quote are all from ESPN.

I just did a cursory google search to play along. The Clips were considered by media to be title contenders. They were in the conversation enough as possible winners of the West for a good 4-6 (just guessing) seasons.


I didn't see much of it when I went through (especially contrasted to the number of opinions that they were another Memphis Grizzlies type of regular season team), but if people think a team that is more likely to lose in the first round than to make the conference finals is what qualifies as a "contender" then I stand corrected. The Clippers were among the good 10 or so contenders during their heyday.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#319 » by Jamaaliver » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:03 pm

Is it time yet to start filling in some specific holes on the roster?

Every Projected Lottery Team's Biggest Need in the 2019 NBA Draft

Atlanta Hawks

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Biggest need: Defense

The Atlanta Hawks have put together a promising young core of Trae Young, John Collins and Kevin Huerter. They'll want to fill holes during the draft with defensive-minded players.

Atlanta ranks 28th in defensive efficiency, allowing opponents to shoot 65.8 percent at the rim and score the third-most points (tied) leaguewide on second-chance opportunities. Opponents are also shooting a league-high 44.4 percent against Atlanta in the mid-range and 36.5 percent (seventh-highest) beyond 24 feet.

Atlanta could use a perimeter defender next to Young and a rim protector alongside Collins.

Based on early projections, the Hawks may want to target a wing defender with their first selection (Reddish, Culver, Langford) and Texas' Jaxson Hayes or Gonzaga's Brandon Clarke with the top-five-protected pick they may receive from the Dallas Mavericks.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#320 » by Atlanta Hawk Fan » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:40 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:Is it time yet to start filling in some specific holes on the roster?


Absolutely not. We draft for high potential talent waaayyyy over hole filling this draft. Sometimes you do both but we aren't in the "fill a specific need" stage of our building.
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