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Rebuild reality and doin it right

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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#81 » by macd-gm » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:21 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
ATL Boy wrote:I think we could be serious players in next year's FA class to help expedite the rebuild a bit, as long as we don't take on any long term salary in trades.

We should have enough money for a max salary slot and can sell a potential FA on playing next to an abundance of young talent, depending on how lucky we get in the draft lottery this year.



I really regret we didn't start our rebuild a year early and could be big spenders this summer when few other teams have space. Making us the big dogs with all the top options in a buyer's market. Looking at the deals being handed out to 2nd tier players and below. We could have built an entire roster and still barely touched the salary floor.

(Curse you, BudCox!!! :upset: )




Next year, IIRC, won't there be a larger number of teams with cap space competing for talent again. Isn't that when a number of deals form 2016 start coming off the books as top players can opt out of their deals?


But who could we have realistically landed this summer anyway. No big names really moved other than Lebron. No one of significance would be signing with a rebuilding team.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#82 » by tbhawksfan1 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:11 pm

Tough thing is that even with all the lott talent that we're bringing in over this 3 / 4 year period, you really need to hit BIG on one or two and do really well with most of the rest or the rebuild isn't just set back, it's flawed and will fall short during the prime years.

That's why I'm scrutinizing every TS move from day one. I'm not as down on him as some might think. At this point almost 1.5 years into his tenure I would grade him only with incomplete, too early to tell, but if I had to grade I'd give him a solid B.

I like his plan, just hope he doesn't hedge or buy into short-term revenue mode instead of long-term talent acquisition.

I think Ressler is keeping a tight budget during the beginning of the rebuild, which is normal, but I think there are some smaller signings that could / should being made. Given the tight cap of other teams, I'd like to see TS bring in at least one young FA on a good deal. Sign a 3 year and develop to keep or trade. I think it's a good way to supplement the draft first strategy while getting Bird rights to a promising young player.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#83 » by tbhawksfan1 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:13 pm

I'm not a big fan of bringing in so many udfa. If by some miracle one of them blows up or even becomes starter worthy, you still have to deal with a lot of non NBA talent on the roster. Drafted players are the cream.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#84 » by Vae Victus » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:05 am

Hello all, new ATL follower joining the gang here (via Lin fandom)

Just wanted to know if this Capulator sheet is accurate on the state of the Hawks payroll

http://www.shamsports.com/capulator?id=5433132515b485cbe22e98811447998

Basically trading for Lin has pretty much sapped up whatever meaningful cap was there. By my reckoning assuming all capholds are renounced about 7.7m in cap space and a Room exception are all thats left to make movies with?
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#85 » by tbhawksfan1 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:34 am

Vae Victus wrote:Hello all, new ATL follower joining the gang here (via Lin fandom)

Just wanted to know if this Capulator sheet is accurate on the state of the Hawks payroll

http://www.shamsports.com/capulator?id=5433132515b485cbe22e98811447998

Basically trading for Lin has pretty much sapped up whatever meaningful cap was there. By my reckoning assuming all capholds are renounced about 7.7m in cap space and a Room exception are all thats left to make movies with?


May not be the best time to become a Hawks fan
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#86 » by Vae Victus » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:59 am

tbhawksfan1 wrote:
Vae Victus wrote:Hello all, new ATL follower joining the gang here (via Lin fandom)

Just wanted to know if this Capulator sheet is accurate on the state of the Hawks payroll

http://www.shamsports.com/capulator?id=5433132515b485cbe22e98811447998

Basically trading for Lin has pretty much sapped up whatever meaningful cap was there. By my reckoning assuming all capholds are renounced about 7.7m in cap space and a Room exception are all thats left to make movies with?


May not be the best time to become a Hawks fan


What good is a fairweather fan? A real fan is someone who supports who they like/follow and hope for the best no matter how bleak it looks. Following Lin is hard nowadays, but all a real fan of his can do is hope he can bring it on the court to help his team even in his reduced pitiful state and if not on the court then by being a leader off the court by being a model citizen and leader helping build chemistry among the team and make sure his teammates never get too low on themselves.

Lin is a shining inspiration for any fringe bench player to look up to. Just keep grinding and working your ass off and one day u might get your shot at glory to then earn a significant role on a team (which then leads to getting paid). Also to always keep working hard no matter the setback. Lin’s career essentially got destroyed by injury but he’s gonna be grinding it out praying for another miracle that his health holds up and tries to get his career back on track.

ATL is at it’s lowest point right now. Just gotta focus all the good energy, coaching, mentoring possible on the new kids and pray to every b-ball god out there that they become all they can be. Just about the only reason I can see that ATL wanted Lin is that he’s a super high character guy who has an incredible work ethic and management wants it to rub off on the kids even if Lin can’t play a lick on the court due to his injury.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#87 » by Jamaaliver » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:47 am

macd-gm wrote:But who could we have realistically landed this summer anyway. No big names really moved other than Lebron. No one of significance would be signing with a rebuilding team.



If we were in Year 3 of our rebuild instead of year 1 (or is it 2?), us drafting Luka and then pursuing any of Capela, Aaron Gordon, DeMarcus Cousins would be a solid approach.




Not to mention 2nd/3rd tier guys like Derrick Favors, Dante Exum, Nurkic, Tyreke Evans.


Had we positioned this properly, we could have gotten 2 of those tier 1 Free Agents above and cleaned up on the lesser players.



But instead...we're paying Kent Bazemore instead. :nonono:


(I'd much rather be paying Aaron Gordon $20 million+ annually than Kent Bazemore $18+ million.)
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#88 » by macd-gm » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:12 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
macd-gm wrote:But who could we have realistically landed this summer anyway. No big names really moved other than Lebron. No one of significance would be signing with a rebuilding team.



If we were in Year 3 of our rebuild instead of year 1 (or is it 2?), us drafting Luka and then pursuing any of Capela, Aaron Gordon, DeMarcus Cousins would be a solid approach.




Not to mention 2nd/3rd tier guys like Derrick Favors, Dante Exum, Nurkic, Tyreke Evans.


Had we positioned this properly, we could have gotten 2 of those tier 1 Free Agents above and cleaned up on the lesser players.



But instead...we're paying Kent Bazemore instead. :nonono:


(I'd much rather be paying Aaron Gordon $20 million+ annually than Kent Bazemore $18+ million.)


Agree on Gordon but Gordon would have gotten matched. He didn't even meet with any other teams. I want no part of $20 million for Capela. I think we're on the better path now. Otherwise we're collecting misfit toys and exiting the 1st round.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#89 » by Jamaaliver » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:50 pm

macd-gm wrote:Agree on Gordon but Gordon would have gotten matched. He didn't even meet with any other teams. I want no part of $20 million for Capela. I think we're on the better path now. Otherwise we're collecting misfit toys and exiting the 1st round.




Maybe...but a core of something like Aaron Gordon, Luka Doncic and more is a really good way to start a post-Lebron era playoff run in the East.



And adding DeMarcus, IT2, Nwaba on bargain deals...we could have a stacked roster if we were shopping this summer...because we'd be the only buyers on the market with cash to spare.



It's a pity we still had guys begging to pay Millsap a long term contract instead this time last summer. :nonono:

^A direct shot at Budenholzer.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#90 » by macd-gm » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:02 pm

We assume everything you say is a shot at Budenholzer. No need to highlight. :D

I think all those possible moves are risky and really long shots. I think Cousins still goes to the warriors and turns down a bargain contract from Atlanta in favor of a ring, rehab year, and big money next year.

But the principal disagreement i think it's I don't believe that Luka will be a franchise cornerstone. I think he has a shot to be a really good player on good teams but I don't see him as an elite scorer.

It is what it is of course. I think the possibilities for next summer are better than this one despite no one having FA money this summer. The Hawks weren't an attractive destination when we were a winning team. It's worse now.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#91 » by Jamaaliver » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:10 pm

macd-gm wrote:We assume everything you say is a shot at Budenholzer. No need to highlight. :D

I think all those possible moves are risky and really long shots.



My initial post is getting way more pushback than I thought possible.

Jamaaliver wrote:I really regret we didn't start our rebuild a year early and could be big spenders this summer when few other teams have space. Making us the big dogs with all the top options in a buyer's market. Looking at the deals being handed out to 2nd tier players and below. We could have built an entire roster and still barely touched the salary floor.



Let me try again:

A number of talented NBA players are being signed on bargain basement deals this free agency.

I wish we were in position to capitalize on the buyer's market in place this offseason.


Is that less polarizing?


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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#92 » by CP War Hawks » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:19 pm

All I know is the 2021 FA class and draft class will be monumental. If Schlenk does anything to harm the cap space and flexibility for that year, I will smack him on the back of that bald M&M head, on Gawd.

They should have another top 10 pick for that year, and some crazy money, something like 80 million in cap space.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#93 » by macd-gm » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:30 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
macd-gm wrote:We assume everything you say is a shot at Budenholzer. No need to highlight. :D

I think all those possible moves are risky and really long shots.



My initial post is getting way more pushback than I thought possible.

Jamaaliver wrote:I really regret we didn't start our rebuild a year early and could be big spenders this summer when few other teams have space. Making us the big dogs with all the top options in a buyer's market. Looking at the deals being handed out to 2nd tier players and below. We could have built an entire roster and still barely touched the salary floor.



Let me try again:

A number of talented NBA players are being signed on bargain basement deals this free agency.

I wish we were in position to capitalize on the buyer's market in place this offseason.


Is that less polarizing?


Spoiler:
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I think it's just a difference of opinion (obviously). So far there hasn't been anyone that changed teams (or had the potential to) this summer that I would have been excited about signing. Isn't this path the one you criticized Bud endlessly for? Signing middling free agents and head cases just to be a weak playoff team?
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#94 » by Jamaaliver » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:10 pm

macd-gm wrote:I think it's just a difference of opinion (obviously). So far there hasn't been anyone that changed teams (or had the potential to) this summer that I would have been excited about signing. Isn't this path the one you criticized Bud endlessly for? Signing middling free agents and head cases just to be a weak playoff team?



:blank:


Oh, boy....

We're spending $30+ million on Plumlee and Bazemore this season.


There's a half dozen players with higher ceilings and better production I'd rather be spending that money on.

Most are available this summer. And they'll be playing on shorter, cheaper, more manageable contracts.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#95 » by macd-gm » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:19 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
macd-gm wrote:I think it's just a difference of opinion (obviously). So far there hasn't been anyone that changed teams (or had the potential to) this summer that I would have been excited about signing. Isn't this path the one you criticized Bud endlessly for? Signing middling free agents and head cases just to be a weak playoff team?



:blank:


Oh, boy....

We're spending $30+ million on Plumlee and Bazemore this season.


There's a half dozen players with higher ceilings and better production I'd rather be spending that money on.

Most are available this summer. And they'll be playing on shorter, cheaper, more manageable contracts.


I just don't understand what this has to do with anything. My point is simply that there was no one signed in free agency this summer that the Hawks could have acquired that I cared about. If your point is we should move Plumlee and Baze for shorter contracts then there's no argument here. I thought you were saying this summer would have been a great chance to acquire talent to build a contender.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#96 » by Jamaaliver » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:30 pm

macd-gm wrote:I thought you were saying this summer would have been a great chance to acquire talent to build a contender.





^That is literally what I'm saying.






That if we had started the rebuild after 2016 when it was obvious we couldn't re-acquire the magic of the 2015 season....

If we had never wasted money on Baze. If we had never wasted money on Baze Dwight.

If we had gone and traded Millsap to ORL for Oladipo, Sabonis and Ilyasova.

If we had bottomed out and been terrible on purpose for multiple seasons -- acquiring multiple lottery picks in the process.

After drafting in the 2017 lottery, and again drafting in the 2018 lottery....then today, in this buyer's market of free agency...we could add a half dozen solid Free Agents to the core of young talent we'd acquired through drafting (and trade).




This summer's buyer's market is unlikely to be available again anytime soon. I wish we were further along in our rebuild to take advantage.

Thus my original statement:

Jamaaliver wrote:I really regret we didn't start our rebuild a year early and could be big spenders this summer when few other teams have space.
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#97 » by tbhawksfan1 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:13 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
macd-gm wrote:We assume everything you say is a shot at Budenholzer. No need to highlight. :D

I think all those possible moves are risky and really long shots.



My initial post is getting way more pushback than I thought possible.

Jamaaliver wrote:I really regret we didn't start our rebuild a year early and could be big spenders this summer when few other teams have space. Making us the big dogs with all the top options in a buyer's market. Looking at the deals being handed out to 2nd tier players and below. We could have built an entire roster and still barely touched the salary floor.



Let me try again:

A number of talented NBA players are being signed on bargain basement deals this free agency.

I wish we were in position to capitalize on the buyer's market in place this offseason.


Is that less polarizing?


Spoiler:
Bargains:

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

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We were not only in that position but in the friggin drivers seat
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#98 » by tbhawksfan1 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:17 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
macd-gm wrote:I thought you were saying this summer would have been a great chance to acquire talent to build a contender.





^That is literally what I'm saying.






That if we had started the rebuild after 2016 when it was obvious we couldn't re-acquire the magic of the 2015 season....

If we had never wasted money on Baze. If we had never wasted money on Baze Dwight.

If we had gone and traded Millsap to ORL for Oladipo, Sabonis and Ilyasova.

If we had bottomed out and been terrible on purpose for multiple seasons -- acquiring multiple lottery picks in the process.

After drafting in the 2017 lottery, and again drafting in the 2018 lottery....then today, in this buyer's market of free agency...we could add a half dozen solid Free Agents to the core of young talent we'd acquired through drafting (and trade).




This summer's buyer's market is unlikely to be available again anytime soon. I wish we were further along in our rebuild to take advantage.

Thus my original statement:

Jamaaliver wrote:I really regret we didn't start our rebuild a year early and could be big spenders this summer when few other teams have space.


How do they not see it? You can even go back a year earlier and trade Horf and Sap and we'd already be far along having started with assets instead of nothing. Hawks letting two top 30 NBA players walk in consecutive years must be some kind of record. Worst part, the cap space gained.... gained DH
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#99 » by Vae Victus » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:55 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
macd-gm wrote:I thought you were saying this summer would have been a great chance to acquire talent to build a contender.


^That is literally what I'm saying.

That if we had started the rebuild after 2016 when it was obvious we couldn't re-acquire the magic of the 2015 season....

If we had never wasted money on Baze. If we had never wasted money on Baze Dwight.

If we had gone and traded Millsap to ORL for Oladipo, Sabonis and Ilyasova.

If we had bottomed out and been terrible on purpose for multiple seasons -- acquiring multiple lottery picks in the process.

After drafting in the 2017 lottery, and again drafting in the 2018 lottery....then today, in this buyer's market of free agency...we could add a half dozen solid Free Agents to the core of young talent we'd acquired through drafting (and trade).

This summer's buyer's market is unlikely to be available again anytime soon. I wish we were further along in our rebuild to take advantage.

Thus my original statement:

Jamaaliver wrote:I really regret we didn't start our rebuild a year early and could be big spenders this summer when few other teams have space.


Rebuilding properly is not only tanking and doing absorb + asset deals with open cap, but also about timing and knowing when to blow it up.

My hometeam Lakers did the exact same mistake in not realizing how screwed we were when Kobe went down with major injury. We rolled the dice HARD trading for DHo (for a song in retrospect) and trading a KING's ransom for **** 38 year old Steve Nash (basically 2 FRP for the privilege of feathering his 30mil retirement fund). After DHo bolted and Kobe's career effectively over due to major injury, we should've

A) not extend a crippled Kobe to a massive deal that ate like 40% of the cap, that Jeannie Buss justified as paying him for all his past accomplishments (and handcuffing her brother from improving the team leading to his eventual ouster)
B) traded Pau Gasol when we still had the chance, for ANYTHING, instead of letting him expire
C) Whore out our cap space during years where we had no chance of winning a thing (IE Kobe swansong years), to pile up assets to do something

Only smart thing we did during that era was have Byron "Tank Master General" Scott, beautifully conduct a 2 year tank job to get top #2 overall picks.

Then we **** it all up by signing Deng and Mozgov... sigh.

I'm just glad LBJ wants to chill in LA and be treated like a King til his retirement, at least we wont be seeing obscene unwatchable basketball anymore. Just gotta pray our kids pan out...
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Re: Rebuild reality and doin it right 

Post#100 » by D21 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:22 am

I will never be sure that we couldn't keep the magic of the previous season with better free agency.
The following season, we had Splitter counting in the cap for nearly nothing.
Then, don't forget that the plan Bud was hoping was adding Howard, to fix the rebound problem, but not with loosing Horford or Millsap, or that if one was traded, that some good pieces would come here.
He certainly would have prefered to sacrifice Bazermore to keep both Horford and Millsap and add Howard, and play with the three guys in rotation, than loosing Horford.

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