Biggest Hawks’ question: Is Budenholzer coming back?

[tbhawksfan1]

The good side of this is that we're gonna quickly see what TS is all about. He's gonna have to bring in a coach that makes us not regret Bud, he's gonna have to nail this draft and off-season and we're gonna have a much clearer vision of what we have in TS very soon

[jayu70]

Appreciate the counceling Jamaal, but you're not making me feel any better. I'm also not sold on you're theory that TS will bring in his guy and that it will result in a better coach. Introducing a new coach system is another rebuild

That's why I'm not speaking to @jamalll.

He seems to think this is a good thing and not a colossal step back even from behing the 8-ball we were already behind.

A rebuild with a new coach, particularly a 1st time coach looks like an even longer rebuild. That's not taking a step back for a year or two like Schlenk said.
It's a complete overhaul in coaching system and philosophy (unless it's a SAS based system with modifications).

[tbhawksfan1]

I think I was one of the early sounding the alarm. After the "60 WS" when the Hawks did nothing to add to the team except lose their starting SF, I was in rebuild mode, but if the Hawks end up bringing in a place-holder, it will be about the money and it will be worse than a long rebuild.

There are ways to not make it a 7 year deal.

My solution is that we should have pulled a total tank THIS year. We failed. Had the poorest roster situation in the NBA and added useless vets and wins. Bud should have been traded last off-season if TS didn't want to keep him. We coulda already brought in the scrub coach to the scrub roster and tanked like pros. Two seasons of top tank, a couple moving back in the lottery and then big moves to WIN.

TS is not looking good to me to this point. Going to see very soon

[macd-gm]

Not true. This has been brewing with Travis from day one. You and I both recognized that much of what Travis said about Bud wasn't really glowing reviews. Travis knew Bud would be disgruntled and that other teams would come calling and he'd have an easy out. Instead he could have recognized that Bud is a great coach and worked from day one to ensure that he continued to be the Hawks coach. He did the opposite. Treated him with indifference. It's the classic 'get your girlfriend to break up with you' scenario.

Allowing Bud to interview with another team, and getting to the point that he wants to, is the same as firing him. Now it could be this was a deal between the two all along but I doubt it.

But, wanting to bring in your own coach who's vision and style aligns directly with your own isn't ego.

Right now you're in stage three. I promise, this isn't as bad as you think.

Isn't that practically the definition of an ego move? Having to have everything your way vs. recognizing that constructive disagreement maybe good and that others may have as good or better vision.

Bud, because of his proven track record in the league, was given a loud voice in the front office. Travis doesn't want to hear that. He wants people to do what he says and he wants the credit for it when/if it works. He knows that if the teams start to perform that the credit would be shared with the guy who was largely responsible for bringing the franchise to real relevance before Travis got here.

Is it the end of the world? No. Will our next coach lead us to contention and/or be as good as Bud? There are way more misses than hits in the head coaching department so based purely on percentages it's unlikely. So get comfortable and get ready for the long haul of NBA rebuilding like we saw with woody/bk/sund/drew. Hope there are some fans left in 6 years.

[Jamaaliver]

Isn't that practically the definition of an ego move? Having to have everything your way vs. recognizing that constructive disagreement maybe good and that others may have as good or better vision.

Bud, because of his proven track record in the league, was given a loud voice in the front office. Travis doesn't want to hear that.

No. not really. Leaders are held accountable for the results of their subordinates. So they get to decide which subordinates (scouts, coaches) are in their employ.


This is 100% normal. It's why this was always so likely.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Bud, because of his proven track record in the league, was given a loud voice in the front office. Travis doesn't want to hear that.

Bud got his say, and it led massively diminishing returns. Worse attendance. Worse offense. Deteriorating salary cap space. And the most important player walking away to a hated rival.

The dude in charge during that period does not get to help choose the new direction.

It doesn't matter why those things happened. They happened on his watch. He got full authority, and his team fell to a 43 win squad that lost in the 1st round of the playoffs.

If he can't win with the players he chose, it's unlikely he would win with players chosen by another individual with a differing view.

WE AREN'T BREAKING UP A CHAMPIONSHIP CONTENDER. WE'RE BREAKING UP A PERRENIAL PLAYOFF UNDERPERFORMER.

[kg01]

WE AREN'T BREAKING UP A CHAMPIONSHIP CONTENDER. WE'RE BREAKING UP A PERRENIAL PLAYOFF UNDERPERFORMER.

At the end of the day, this is something we do have to keep in mind ... while also understanding that there's a lot of work to be done in order for us to ascend even back to where we were and switching coaches may/may not be a first step on the road to Contenderville.

May as well strap the work boots on as fans this is gonna be a lumpy ride ... and I mean real work boots, not the fancy, stylish ones ma$e gets in those corner boutique's around the corner from his brownstone.

[Jamaaliver]

My guess: Budenholzer has coached his last Hawks game

If I had to guess, I’d say Mike Budenholzer has coached his last game for the Atlanta Hawks. Once you’ve made the decision to interview for another job and that interview becomes public, it’s very difficult to return to the one you have. And I’m reasonably sure Budenholzer no longer cares much for the job he has.

Once Budenholzer was demoted to coach-only – and once it was clear that the new man in charge, Travis Schlenk, wanted the Hawks to tank it up – the Bud-out scenario became more “when” than “if.”

Tanking is awful for everyone, but it’s hardest on the coach. Those L’s don’t go on the GM’s record; they go on the coach’s. Look today. After the 24-58 of this season, Budenholzer’s record is 213-197, a winning percentage of .520. One year ago, it was .576. Another year of this and he’d be a career loser.

There’s a slew of openings already. Assuming Budenholzer does want out, he’d rise to the top of any short list.

From the Hawks’ perspective, there seems no urgency to keep Budenholzer. Every GM wants to pick his own coach, and the coach this GM inherited was the guy who’d held his job... a parting really could be the best thing for both parties.

The belief here is that the parting [will] happen. Budenholzer will be coaching somewhere else next season. The Hawks’ rebuild will continue under someone else.

myAJC

[Spud2nique]

Listen, if we lose Bud, we lose our identity. Bud has been here for about 5 years but in this 5 years I’ve become a smarter basketball fan (insert kg joke coming later). I honestly feel like he brings leadership, accountability and passion to his team. He’s one of the best tacticians in the game. He is one of the best player development coaches out there as well.

I’m not sure I’m being dramatic when I say that this would be the 2nd worst thing to ever happen to the Hawks organization since they traded Nique in 94. For me, this is #2. That’s how stupid a move this would be in my view.


With Bud, I felt like I knew the type of player that he was looking for in the draft...high IQ guys that are versatile and play good D. (This year it’s Mikal Bridges). Now, I don’t know what kind of players we are drafting and I don’t expect any of them to develop nearly as fast as Bud would develop them.

Bud is our unicorn.

[dms269]

What did people think was going to happen with this rebuild? We would be bad for two years and all of a sudden be great?

Bud wants to win games, that is what he knows. He isn't the type of coach to sit through rebuilding seasons. His demotion (well deserved) was writing on the wall.

[macd-gm]

Listen, if we lose Bud, we lose our identity. Bud has been here for about 5 years but in this 5 years I’ve become a smarter basketball fan (insert kg joke coming later). I honestly feel like he brings leadership, accountability and passion to his team. He’s one of the best tacticians in the game. He is one of the best player development coaches out there as well.

I’m not sure I’m being dramatic when I say that this would be the 2nd worst thing to ever happen to the Hawks organization since they traded Nique in 94. For me, this is #2. That’s how stupid a move this would be in my view.


With Bud, I felt like I knew the type of player that he was looking for in the draft...high IQ guys that are versatile and play good D. (This year it’s Mikal Bridges). Now, I don’t know what kind of players we are drafting and I don’t expect any of them to develop nearly as fast as Bud would develop them.

Bud is our unicorn.

Yes. You don't want the guy you are letting walk to be on the top of every other team's short list.

[Spud2nique]

What did people think was going to happen with this rebuild? We would be bad for two years and all of a sudden be great?

Yes. I expected us to be in the playoffs with Bud in 2020 at the latest and competing realistically for a championship in 2022.

[macd-gm]

Isn't that practically the definition of an ego move? Having to have everything your way vs. recognizing that constructive disagreement maybe good and that others may have as good or better vision.

Bud, because of his proven track record in the league, was given a loud voice in the front office. Travis doesn't want to hear that.

No. not really. Leaders are held accountable for the results of their subordinates. So they get to decide which subordinates (scouts, coaches) are in their employ.


This is 100% normal. It's why this was always so likely.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Bud, because of his proven track record in the league, was given a loud voice in the front office. Travis doesn't want to hear that.

Bud got his say, and it led massively diminishing returns. Worse attendance. Worse offense. Deteriorating salary cap space. And the most important player walking away to a hated rival.

The dude in charge during that period does not get to help choose the new direction.

It doesn't matter why those things happened. They happened on his watch. He got full authority, and his team fell to a 43 win squad that lost in the 1st round of the playoffs.

If he can't win with the players he chose, it's unlikely he would win with players chosen by another individual with a differing view.

WE AREN'T BREAKING UP A CHAMPIONSHIP CONTENDER. WE'RE BREAKING UP A PERRENIAL PLAYOFF UNDERPERFORMER.

When Bud was handed a team by a competent GM he took it to the ECF in 2 years. When he was in shared charge with wilcox and various owners it was a personnel disaster. You can't judge his coaching responsibilities on the job he did as PBO/gm.

[Jamaaliver]

Listen, if we lose Bud, we lose our identity.

Bud is our unicorn.

I think...that's the point. Our owner(s) realized we needed a new identity.

Designed by a better architect.

[Jamaaliver]

What did people think was going to happen with this rebuild? We would be bad for two years and all of a sudden be great?

Yes. I expected us to be in the playoffs with Bud in 2020 at the latest and competing realistically for a championship in 2022.

...this was not a realistic expectation.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

When Bud was handed a team by a competent GM he took it to the ECF in 2 years. When he was in shared charge with wilcox and various owners it was a personnel disaster. You can't judge his coaching responsibilities on the job he did as PBO/gm.

And that ECF appearance proved to be an outlier. He couldn't even win a single 2nd round playoff game after that year.

NOTE: I don't consider the failures exclusive. He designed the roster himself and couldn't do squat with it.

Again, in four years here, he only once even won a 2nd round playoff game. With a veteran roster.

[Spud2nique]

What did people think was going to happen with this rebuild? We would be bad for two years and all of a sudden be great?

Yes. I expected us to be in the playoffs with Bud in 2020 at the latest and competing realistically for a championship in 2022.

...this was not a realistic expectation.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

When Bud was handed a team by a competent GM he took it to the ECF in 2 years. When he was in shared charge with wilcox and various owners it was a personnel disaster. You can't judge his coaching responsibilities on the job he did as PBO/gm.

And that ECF appearance proved to be an outlier. He couldn't even win a single 2nd round playoff game after that year.

NOTE: I don't consider the failures exclusive. He designed the roster himself and couldn't do squat with it.

Again, in four years here, he only once even won a 2nd round playoff game. With a veteran roster.

Not realistic? When did you want to compete? 2025? You might get your wish..

[Jamaaliver]

Not realistic? When did you want to compete? 2025? You might get your wish..

1. Rebuilds take more than 2 seasons to complete. Let alone reach contender status.

2. I'm gonna take a back seat and give you more time to process the imminent changes for this organization.

I promise, this isn't the end of the world.

(It's a new beginning.)

[kg01]

Listen, if we lose Bud, we lose our identity.

Bud is our unicorn.

I think...that's the point. Our owner(s) realized we needed a new identity.

Designed by a better architect.

There's not much to suggest Schlenk is a better architect than GM-Budenholzer was.

I think you're misstating what the owner(s) intend/want. Well, I should say, I don't think we know what they want.

On expectations, I expected to take a 2-year hiatus from the playoffs and emerge afterwards with a better, more upside-having roster ... with Budenholzer as our coach considering that was the area of the franchise which was closest to "contender-level".

Taking our strength (his coaching/development combination) and turning it into our biggest question does not feel like a step in the right direction. Other franchises who are tanking quickly jettison their coach because his coaching (or lack thereof) and development (or lack thereof) were part of the problem. That's not really the case here.

Even if you don't like his coaching ability, the fact that basically all the players got better each year is a valuable commodity. If you think we're wrong on that, just ask ... oh, just about every team looking for a coach right now.

Don't get me wrong, if we end up turning the page, I can get behind that strategy. But you won't see me celebrating it as if the 'mystery coach' in the 'mystery box' is a sure upgrade.

[dms269]

A lot are making it seem that Bud wants to stay here. He got demoted and has a team that needed to rebuild. He can go somewhere else and get a fresh start instead of sitting through more years of a rebuild.

This team is bad from a roster standpoint and needed a rebuild.

[Jamaaliver]

Listen, if we lose Bud, we lose our identity.

Bud is our unicorn.

I think...that's the point. Our owner(s) realized we needed a new identity.

Designed by a better architect.

There's not much to suggest Schlenk is a better architect than GM-Budenholzer was.

kg...you kinda don't have much credibility on this. You literally spent the entirety of the last 10 months ignoring every sign about this issue.

There's no evidence Budz/Schlenk aren't on the same page. Tea-leaf reading isn't admissible as "evidence".

-Last Monday

[kg01]

I think...that's the point. Our owner(s) realized we needed a new identity.

Designed by a better architect.

There's not much to suggest Schlenk is a better architect than GM-Budenholzer was.

kg...you kinda don't have much credibility on this. You literally spent the entirety of the last 10 months ignoring every sign about this issue.

There's no evidence Budz/Schlenk aren't on the same page. Tea-leaf reading isn't admissible as "evidence".

-Last Monday

What does the first statement have to do with the other?