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John Collins

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atlantabbq99
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Re: John Collins 

Post#161 » by atlantabbq99 » Sat May 16, 2020 1:34 pm

jayu70 wrote:
atlantabbq99 wrote:I'm not saying we should trade Collins, but I would float his name around on draft night.

If the Hawks can draft Edwards and then trade Collins for a draft pick and get a guy like Jalen Smith, Wiseman, Okongwu, Oturu, or Toppin, then I might say 'yes'.

We are supposed to be trying to make the playoffs next years per Coach Pierce. We saw this team without John Collins this year, adding two rookies in what most term a weak draft isn't going to put us in playoff territory.
I don't want to be those teams that keep forever drafting in the lottery and never progressing out of the rebuild.
I don't want to be like the Magic trading players that end up flourishing elsewhere, see Harris, Tobias and Oladipo, Victor.
Last, Collins is worth more than any 1 player in this draft.


Developing players is a big deal, but over paying players is a bigger deal. Tobias and Oladipo are good stories, but if either of those guys are getting max contracts right now and are expected to be a big three on a contender, then that is not a good sign for the franchise that gave them a max contract. DeRozan, Blake Griffin, Hayward, alot of Knicks players, about 20 other guys who are overpaid, are examples of contracts that trap a franchise as a non-contender.
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Re: John Collins 

Post#162 » by jayu70 » Sat May 16, 2020 1:44 pm

atlantabbq99 wrote:
jayu70 wrote:
atlantabbq99 wrote:I'm not saying we should trade Collins, but I would float his name around on draft night.

If the Hawks can draft Edwards and then trade Collins for a draft pick and get a guy like Jalen Smith, Wiseman, Okongwu, Oturu, or Toppin, then I might say 'yes'.

We are supposed to be trying to make the playoffs next years per Coach Pierce. We saw this team without John Collins this year, adding two rookies in what most term a weak draft isn't going to put us in playoff territory.
I don't want to be those teams that keep forever drafting in the lottery and never progressing out of the rebuild.
I don't want to be like the Magic trading players that end up flourishing elsewhere, see Harris, Tobias and Oladipo, Victor.
Last, Collins is worth more than any 1 player in this draft.


Developing players is a big deal, but over paying players is a bigger deal. Tobias and Oladipo are good stories, but if either of those guys are getting max contracts right now and are expected to be a big three on a contender, then that is not a good sign for the franchise that gave them a max contract. DeRozan, Blake Griffin, Hayward, alot of Knicks players, about 20 other guys who are overpaid, are examples of contracts that trap a franchise as a non-contender.

None of those 3 were what you would consider overpaid coming off their rookie contracts. They are considered overpaid now. Hawks are nowhere close to contenders, we're just trying to get out of the lottery basement and actually getting into the playoffs, we won't do that with another set of rookies and no JC. It's the shiny new toy syndrome.
If you are trading JC you actually want an established player that you know can contribute, not a rookie you HOPE will give you what JC gives you now.
And again just because JC thinks he should be in the discussion for a max, doesn't mean he'll get one.
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Re: John Collins 

Post#163 » by Ball4life32 » Sat May 16, 2020 1:53 pm

atlantabbq99 wrote:
Ball4life32 wrote:
atlantabbq99 wrote:I'm not saying we should trade Collins, but I would float his name around on draft night.

If the Hawks can draft Edwards and then trade Collins for a draft pick and get a guy like Jalen Smith, Wiseman, Okongwu, Oturu, or Toppin, then I might say 'yes'.

I would 100% keep Collins then. Collins significantly worth more than any of those guys & I like Wiseman.

And two rookies starting or playing 25+ mins again for the 3rd year in a row? No thanks. I’d be shocked to see him traded for pick(s).


eh, giving a max contract is a big deal (their is a reason why the GSW didn't give a big contract to Harrison Barnes)

Collins has great stats, but he doesn't win games. This could be a Joe Johnson situation. So do you give a max to a players who gives you good stats or do you give a max contract to players who can take you and win in the playoffs?

Wiseman, Okongwu, etc may or may not give more than Collins but when you factor in contracts and salary cap, then the value evens out.

It is kind of like do you keep Josh Smith at the trade deadline and keep him for 1 more year, or do you trade him to Milwaukee for a 1st round pick (and draft Giannis come June)?

I’m confused by your comparison.

Harrison Barnes
Year 2 - 9.5 points on .486 TS% (shot under 40% FG)
Year 3 - 10.1 points on .573 TS%

John Collins
Year 2 - 19.5 points on .627 TS%
Year 3 - 21.6 points on .659 TS%

They are nothing similar... Collins is a superior prospect at same stage. I would not pay a lot of money for Barnes either.

Based on what he doesn’t win games? Did you forget he was suspended?

Hawks had a 6-24 record when he came back from suspension. Where he is supposed to lead the team when the season is basically over by the time he came back? Hawks play much better when Collins playing.

Also Collins believes he’s in Max contention...he never said he HAS to have the Max.
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Re: John Collins 

Post#164 » by atlantabbq99 » Sat May 16, 2020 2:03 pm

Ball4life32 wrote:
atlantabbq99 wrote:
Ball4life32 wrote:I would 100% keep Collins then. Collins significantly worth more than any of those guys & I like Wiseman.

And two rookies starting or playing 25+ mins again for the 3rd year in a row? No thanks. I’d be shocked to see him traded for pick(s).


eh, giving a max contract is a big deal (their is a reason why the GSW didn't give a big contract to Harrison Barnes)

Collins has great stats, but he doesn't win games. This could be a Joe Johnson situation. So do you give a max to a players who gives you good stats or do you give a max contract to players who can take you and win in the playoffs?

Wiseman, Okongwu, etc may or may not give more than Collins but when you factor in contracts and salary cap, then the value evens out.

It is kind of like do you keep Josh Smith at the trade deadline and keep him for 1 more year, or do you trade him to Milwaukee for a 1st round pick (and draft Giannis come June)?

I’m confused by your comparison.

Harrison Barnes
Year 2 - 9.5 points on .486 TS% (shot under 40% FG)
Year 3 - 10.1 points on .573 TS%

John Collins
Year 2 - 19.5 points on .627 TS%
Year 3 - 21.6 points on .659 TS%

They are nothing similar... Collins is a superior prospect at same stage. I would not pay a lot of money for Barnes either.

Based on what he doesn’t win games? Did you forget he was suspended?

Hawks had a 6-24 record when he came back from suspension. Where he is supposed to lead the team when the season is basically over by the time he came back? Hawks play much better when Collins playing.

Also Collins believes he’s in Max contention...he never said he HAS to have the Max.



Hey if Collins can stay for significantly less then max, I'm all for it!!! So it looks like we all agree that Collins is not a max player!

Because if the Hawks float Collins' name around on draft night and their is a taker, then that team in their minds is already prepared to give Collins a really big or max contract.
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Re: John Collins 

Post#165 » by Ball4life32 » Sat May 16, 2020 2:07 pm

atlantabbq99 wrote:
Ball4life32 wrote:
atlantabbq99 wrote:
eh, giving a max contract is a big deal (their is a reason why the GSW didn't give a big contract to Harrison Barnes)

Collins has great stats, but he doesn't win games. This could be a Joe Johnson situation. So do you give a max to a players who gives you good stats or do you give a max contract to players who can take you and win in the playoffs?

Wiseman, Okongwu, etc may or may not give more than Collins but when you factor in contracts and salary cap, then the value evens out.

It is kind of like do you keep Josh Smith at the trade deadline and keep him for 1 more year, or do you trade him to Milwaukee for a 1st round pick (and draft Giannis come June)?

I’m confused by your comparison.

Harrison Barnes
Year 2 - 9.5 points on .486 TS% (shot under 40% FG)
Year 3 - 10.1 points on .573 TS%

John Collins
Year 2 - 19.5 points on .627 TS%
Year 3 - 21.6 points on .659 TS%

They are nothing similar... Collins is a superior prospect at same stage. I would not pay a lot of money for Barnes either.

Based on what he doesn’t win games? Did you forget he was suspended?

Hawks had a 6-24 record when he came back from suspension. Where he is supposed to lead the team when the season is basically over by the time he came back? Hawks play much better when Collins playing.

Also Collins believes he’s in Max contention...he never said he HAS to have the Max.



Hey if Collins can stay for significantly less then max, I'm all for it!!! So it looks like we all agree that Collins is not a max player!

I never said significantly less....no clue what he actually gets but I don’t want to lose him.

Hawks are 8-39 in last 2 years without Collins. I just disagree fully he isn’t making a impact. Hawks play at worst record in league pace w/o him.

Also Collins is only 22....he’s nowhere close to being topped out yet.
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Re: John Collins 

Post#166 » by atlantabbq99 » Sat May 16, 2020 2:15 pm

Ball4life32 wrote:
atlantabbq99 wrote:
Ball4life32 wrote:I’m confused by your comparison.

Harrison Barnes
Year 2 - 9.5 points on .486 TS% (shot under 40% FG)
Year 3 - 10.1 points on .573 TS%

John Collins
Year 2 - 19.5 points on .627 TS%
Year 3 - 21.6 points on .659 TS%

They are nothing similar... Collins is a superior prospect at same stage. I would not pay a lot of money for Barnes either.

Based on what he doesn’t win games? Did you forget he was suspended?

Hawks had a 6-24 record when he came back from suspension. Where he is supposed to lead the team when the season is basically over by the time he came back? Hawks play much better when Collins playing.

Also Collins believes he’s in Max contention...he never said he HAS to have the Max.



Hey if Collins can stay for significantly less then max, I'm all for it!!! So it looks like we all agree that Collins is not a max player!

I never said significantly less....no clue what he actually gets but I don’t want to lose him.

Hawks are 8-39 in last 2 years without Collins. I just disagree fully he isn’t making a impact. Hawks play at worst record in league pace w/o him.

Also Collins is only 22....he’s nowhere close to being topped out yet.


Hey I want to keep Collins also, but if even one team is willing to offer him max, then that means the market will offer Collins max. And if that means it comes down to giving max to Collins or trading him for a lottery pick, i'll go for the trade.

If Collins can stay with the Hawks for around $17-$20 million per year, then great!!! I'm all for it. But if the Hawks or some other team ends up offering him a Porzingis size deal, then forget it, its better off to get a lottery pick.
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Re: John Collins 

Post#167 » by Ball4life32 » Sat May 16, 2020 2:31 pm

atlantabbq99 wrote:
Ball4life32 wrote:
atlantabbq99 wrote:

Hey if Collins can stay for significantly less then max, I'm all for it!!! So it looks like we all agree that Collins is not a max player!

I never said significantly less....no clue what he actually gets but I don’t want to lose him.

Hawks are 8-39 in last 2 years without Collins. I just disagree fully he isn’t making a impact. Hawks play at worst record in league pace w/o him.

Also Collins is only 22....he’s nowhere close to being topped out yet.


Hey I want to keep Collins also, but if even one team is willing to offer him max, then that means the market will offer Collins max. And if that means it comes down to giving max to Collins or trading him for a lottery pick, i'll go for the trade.

If Collins can stay with the Hawks for around $17-$20 million per year, then great!!! I'm all for it. But if the Hawks or some other team ends up offering him a Porzingis size deal, then forget it, its better off to get a lottery pick.

Eh just to have to agree to disagree here. He’s not a RFA until next year so you don’t even have to pay him this yr if you don’t want to. And Collins is just worth much more than a meh lottery pick in this draft. Not like Hawks won’t have their own lottery pick either.

Imo trading Collins for an unknown rookie is exactly how the Hawks WONT improve. I mean Schlenk already said they’re not trying to add a bunch of rookies to the team anyway so doubt it happens.
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Re: John Collins 

Post#168 » by kg01 » Sat May 16, 2020 2:37 pm

I think he gets a near-max deal and I don't think that's egregious by any measure.

For the record, I'd rather pay him a max deal than trade him for hope (i.e. picks in a bad draft).

Cheap don't win. And bad contracts can be traded so I'm not worried about it.
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Re: John Collins 

Post#169 » by shakes0 » Sat May 16, 2020 2:47 pm

atlantabbq99 wrote:I'm not saying we should trade Collins, but I would float his name around on draft night.

If the Hawks can draft Edwards and then trade Collins for a draft pick and get a guy like Jalen Smith, Wiseman, Okongwu, Oturu, or Toppin, then I might say 'yes'.



say goodbye to Trae if this **** plan is something the Hawks are considering.


Not sure why this is even being discussed. You draft a player who turns out to be much better than expected, pay the man. Not even a decision. Just pay him. You're not going to get anyone better and all you're gonna do is upset the other young guys on the team.


This is a GOOD problem to have.
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Re: John Collins 

Post#170 » by Spud2nique » Sat May 16, 2020 3:09 pm

Kemp on Shawn (JC).
GO HAWKS!!! :thumbsup:
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Re: John Collins 

Post#171 » by jayu70 » Sat May 16, 2020 3:20 pm

atlantabbq99 wrote:
Ball4life32 wrote:
atlantabbq99 wrote:I'm not saying we should trade Collins, but I would float his name around on draft night.

If the Hawks can draft Edwards and then trade Collins for a draft pick and get a guy like Jalen Smith, Wiseman, Okongwu, Oturu, or Toppin, then I might say 'yes'.

I would 100% keep Collins then. Collins significantly worth more than any of those guys & I like Wiseman.

And two rookies starting or playing 25+ mins again for the 3rd year in a row? No thanks. I’d be shocked to see him traded for pick(s).


eh, giving a max contract is a big deal (their is a reason why the GSW didn't give a big contract to Harrison Barnes)

Collins has great stats, but he doesn't win games. This could be a Joe Johnson situation. So do you give a max to a players who gives you good stats or do you give a max contract to players who can take you and win in the playoffs?

Wiseman, Okongwu, etc may or may not give more than Collins but when you factor in contracts and salary cap, then the value evens out.

It is kind of like do you keep Josh Smith at the trade deadline and keep him for 1 more year, or do you trade him to Milwaukee for a 1st round pick (and draft Giannis come June)?

GSW didn't resign Barnes because they got KD.
Hawks signing Joe from his rookie contract wasn't a bad deal. It was the 2nd contract that was the killer.
There's no way the value evens out with rookies vs Collins when it equates to wins which is what we need. Not just running it back with LP trying to develop more rookies at the cost of Trae wanting to win.
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Re: John Collins 

Post#172 » by kg01 » Sat May 16, 2020 3:28 pm

shakes0 wrote:say goodbye to Trae if this **** plan is something the Hawks are considering.


Not sure why this is even being discussed. You draft a player who turns out to be much better than expected, pay the man. Not even a decision. Just pay him. You're not going to get anyone better and all you're gonna do is upset the other young guys on the team.


This is a GOOD problem to have.


Eggsactly.
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Re: John Collins 

Post#173 » by Jamaaliver » Sat May 16, 2020 5:45 pm

I can't sit here and say with certainty that either of these options is ideal.

Overpaying for an above average starter. Or trading talent away because of contract concerns

We have to find the middle ground giving Collins the security he seeks but the team getting a solid deal on their end as well.

Spoiler:
Danny Leroux wrote:Assuming Collins does not make an All-NBA team next season, the highest starting salary he can make with the Hawks or anyone else is 25 percent of the 2021-22 salary cap ...We do not have a clear projection for that far out so I will use $120 million. That would result in a $30 million starting salary for a five-year, $174 million contract with the Hawks.

Even if Collins feels he both deserves and could get a full 25 percent max contract with the Hawks or via offer sheet in 2021, contracts worth less than $30 million per season still represent life-changing money secured a year early. This thought process becomes especially relevant if Collins either wants to stay in Atlanta or thinks it will match any offer sheet. In those cases, it proves exceptionally hard for a restricted free agent to maneuver his way out of town, so he is not losing much flexibility or control by extending. As long as the Hawks make a strong offer this offseason, the upside for Collins is relatively low while the downside is higher than some estimate, which works in favor of locking it up now.
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Re: John Collins 

Post#174 » by kg01 » Sat May 16, 2020 6:25 pm

Man, sittin on that fence must hurt like the dickens.

:)
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Re: John Collins 

Post#175 » by CP War Hawks » Sat May 16, 2020 6:27 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:I can't sit here and say with certainty that either of these options is ideal.

Overpaying for an above average starter. Or trading talent away because of contract concerns

We have to find the middle ground giving Collins the security he seeks but the team getting a solid deal on their end as well.

Spoiler:
Danny Leroux wrote:Assuming Collins does not make an All-NBA team next season, the highest starting salary he can make with the Hawks or anyone else is 25 percent of the 2021-22 salary cap ...We do not have a clear projection for that far out so I will use $120 million. That would result in a $30 million starting salary for a five-year, $174 million contract with the Hawks.

Even if Collins feels he both deserves and could get a full 25 percent max contract with the Hawks or via offer sheet in 2021, contracts worth less than $30 million per season still represent life-changing money secured a year early. This thought process becomes especially relevant if Collins either wants to stay in Atlanta or thinks it will match any offer sheet. In those cases, it proves exceptionally hard for a restricted free agent to maneuver his way out of town, so he is not losing much flexibility or control by extending. As long as the Hawks make a strong offer this offseason, the upside for Collins is relatively low while the downside is higher than some estimate, which works in favor of locking it up now.
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Ideally his contract should be somewhere between Sabonis and Jaylen Brown. If Collins' team insists on 20-25 percent of the cap than I can see Schlenk making some calls. Those whispers during the deadline were real and probably Schlenk getting some feelers just in case.

Would have been nice to get the similar early deals that Indy got with Sabonis and Turner. I mostly interested at how Schlenk will handle the worst case scenario.
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Re: John Collins 

Post#176 » by King Ken » Sat May 16, 2020 11:15 pm

I hate talking about contracts on this site. I just want to say John is valuable to us and has very good trade value so just know we want something worthwhile for John
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Re: John Collins 

Post#177 » by atlantabbq99 » Sat May 16, 2020 11:18 pm

Assuming Collins does not make an All-NBA team next season, the highest starting salary he can make with the Hawks or anyone else is 25 percent of the 2021-22 salary cap ...We do not have a clear projection for that far out so I will use $120 million. That would result in a $30 million starting salary for a five-year, $174 million contract with the Hawks.

Even if Collins feels he both deserves and could get a full 25 percent max contract with the Hawks or via offer sheet in 2021, contracts worth less than $30 million per season still represent life-changing money secured a year early. This thought process becomes especially relevant if Collins either wants to stay in Atlanta or thinks it will match any offer sheet. In those cases, it proves exceptionally hard for a restricted free agent to maneuver his way out of town, so he is not losing much flexibility or control by extending. As long as the Hawks make a strong offer this offseason, the upside for Collins is relatively low while the downside is higher than some estimate, which works in favor of locking it up now.


Exactly!!! $30 million per year aint no joke!

But I'll be more than happy to give Collins a responsible contract to good young player who has not made an all star team yet.
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Re: John Collins 

Post#178 » by Spud2nique » Sun May 17, 2020 12:15 am

kg01 wrote:Man, sittin on that fence must hurt like the dickens.

:)


He’s used to it by now I think... :lol: I mean ummm I don’t know what you mean.

I think it depends on the deal in return. If it’s like a throw Collins and Huerter to the Scrubs to move up 2 spots then that’s idiotic of Wasserman but I digress...

If it’s a deal that makes sense, we will listen. It almost needs to be an all star or future all star around age 22-26 I’d think. Depends on how they wanna build it.

Let the man propose a proposition. -Tony M.
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Re: John Collins 

Post#179 » by Jamaaliver » Sun May 17, 2020 12:29 pm

kg01 wrote:Man, sittin on that fence must hurt like the dickens.

:)



Image








I'm pretty sure there's a better option than either of those unsavory choices....
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Re: John Collins 

Post#180 » by jayu70 » Thu Jul 2, 2020 2:11 pm

Future of the Hawks 2.0: John Collins and projecting Atlanta's supporting cast.

If you’re general manager Travis Schlenk, what would you do with Collins? After evaluating him, would you feel at ease if you gave him significant money?

Vecenie: I’d feel pretty good about giving Collins a lot of money for four years. I don’t know if it’ll be exactly a max deal or something slightly less than that. But Collins should be in the nine-figure range with this contract. Again, as I said in my previous story on the Hawks, “Collins is 22 and he’s coming off of a season in which he averaged 21.6 points and 10.1 rebounds on an obscene 65.9 true-shooting percentage. Similar to Young, his productivity has been genuinely special for his age. The list of players to have done what Collins did this year isn’t exactly long. It’s Collins and Charles Barkley. Heck, even reduce that down to 21 points and 10 rebounds on a 60 true-shooting percentage and you get Barkley and Collins with Kareem, Shaq, Karl-Anthony Towns, Moses Malone, Anthony Davis, Giannis, Dwight Howard, David Robinson, Karl Malone, Artis Gilmore and Wilt Chamberlain. That’s pretty outrageous for someone this young.”

It’s hard to come up with comparables for Collins because he has been so productive. Domantas Sabonis made the All-Star Game this year as an offense-first big man. He got four years, $77 million, but he wasn’t as productive as Collins has been entering his extension window. And, honestly, I think Sabonis took a bit of a discount. Aaron Gordon is more combo forward than big, but he got four years, $76 million on a lesser cap number. Again, his track record of production wasn’t quite as strong. Andre Drummond got a five-year max back in 2016 as an offense-first big man. DeMarcus Cousins signed a four-year max extension back in 2013 with Sacramento.

I think Collins is likely looking at the max or slightly less than the max when he signs this next deal. He has every right to at least ask for the max and it not be ridiculous, in my opinion. Now, I don’t know that the Hawks will agree to lock him in at that number, and maybe the discount to lock in life-changing money for him and his family is something like four years for somewhere in the range of $105 to $110 million as opposed to four years, $129 million. That represents a nice solid discount for Atlanta on a yearly basis, while also letting Collins hit free agency again at 27 years old for another big payday.


After watching the film, did you come away more impressed with Collins’ ability, or did you feel like he’s just a lucky dude who benefits from having Young as his point guard?

Vecenie: No, I think Collins is really, ridiculously good. I don’t think I was surprised or more impressed or anything, but he has gotten a lot better in the NBA. Really, he’s gotten a lot better in each of his last six years of development even going back through his last year of high school. He’s just a late bloomer in a real way. Collins is going to make the All-Star Game at some point, and it might be as soon as next year.

And it won’t only be because of Young. It’s a symbiotic relationship between Young and Collins in that they help each other. Young’s pinpoint passing and ability to warp a defense with his ballhandling help Collins, but Collins’ ability to rim run forces a ton of defensive attention away from Young because if you don’t tag Collins on the backside, it’s a dunk. Then, his ability to space the floor and pop out beyond the break from the 3-point arc and knock down shots also really helps Young a lot.

Collins continues to add little things to his game. As you said, the slip actions to cause mismatches with his speed posed a ton of problems for defenses. His ballhandling is legit very good now in a straight line and he can attack defenses off the bounce when they come too heavy on a closeout off of a pick-and-pop. He’s genuinely among the most versatile options off of rolls in the NBA. That’s a skill; that’s not a creation of Young.

And I’ll also just note: I was an enormous fan of the defensive effort he showed this year. It wasn’t just offense anymore. I wouldn’t quite call Collins an average defender yet, but he’s well on his way to that. His lateral agility got much better, and he actually has a chance now to deal with fours.



https://theathletic.com/1903662/2020/07/02/future-of-the-hawks-2-0-john-collins-and-projecting-atlantas-supporting-cast?source=user-shared-article

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