John Collins Edited: (Hawks Seek Lottery Pick For Collins)

[jayu70]

Don't know if the reports that he wanted Max are true, but what is true is that his Max was almost 126M/4yrs, so an average of 31.5M (28,100,000 - 30,348,000 - 32,596,000 - 34,844,000 like the 4 first years of Bam's contract)...
And we all see that the media are never talking about Sabonis in article on John negotiations... that doesn't help

Sabonis averaged 14/9 when he got his extension....he was coming off the bench for the Pacers at that time. He really broke out into an all star after he got paid. Someone would max him now for sure...

This why I said that with a well build roster last year, John should have play less, like Sabonis, and the negotiations would have been easier (maybe they would have asked more than 90M but certainly not the Max).
It was just stupide to let him play in third year like Sabonis did in 4th because in a winning team, John may never get the stats he had last season, certainly not more. He was playing without a good C like this season.

I just don't understand what you are trying to say here at all.
When you tank and rebuild, you have to pretty much play your draftees to figure our which ones are keepers or not.
I understand Travis wanting to see how JC would perform without a change in offense from being the primary PnR player and better players around him. I would say his overall stastics haven't changed that much. He's gone from 33mpg and 21.3 ppg/10.1 to 30mpg and 18ppg/7.6rpg. So the raw stats are relatively similar.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/collijo01.html

[D21]

I don't think you can find one person here who is saying, just pay him the max and be done with it.

Right, I was mainly thinking about media article often presenting John like a Max contract player, and after checking, I had misread a post on the previous page.

Sabonis averaged 14/9 when he got his extension....he was coming off the bench for the Pacers at that time. He really broke out into an all star after he got paid. Someone would max him now for sure...

This why I said that with a well build roster last year, John should have play less, like Sabonis, and the negotiations would have been easier (maybe they would have asked more than 90M but certainly not the Max).
It was just stupid to let him play in third year like Sabonis did in 4th because in a winning team, John may never get the stats he had last season, certainly not more. He was playing without a good C like this season.

I just don't understand what you are trying to say here at all.
When you tank and rebuild, you have to pretty much play your draftees to figure our which ones are keepers or not.
I understand Travis wanting to see how JC would perform without a change in offense from being the primary PnR player and better players around him. I would say his overall stastics haven't changed that much. He's gone from 33mpg and 21.3 ppg/10.1 to 30mpg and 18ppg/7.6rpg. So the raw stats are relatively similar.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/collijo01.html

I didn't say his stats per min have changed, just that Sabonis was playing 24min/game in his 3rd season, and 35min in 4th after his new contract was signed, while John got 33min before any offer in his 3rd, in a roster less structured than IND, so it was really easier to shine.
So if you can offer a lower contract when the guy only played 24min, why was the point the play John 33min ? You don't need 33min to see what he can do, 24min was enough, and in 24min, his stats would have been 15.7pts/7.3rbd

Do you think that it would not have been easier to agree with him and his agent on a 90M offer if was coming from a 15.7pts/7.3rbd season than a 21.6pts/10.1pts ? It's easy to see that players/agents are asking something based on their last stats, even if the team is loosing, or without context
By extension, what's the point to tank and get potentially better players if you let them playing as they much as they want and shine in a loosing team, and end up having harder negotiations ?

If all the bad contract Schlenk added had been able to play, the team would not have been a lot better, and John would have play less and it would have been easier to agree on a contract.
Schlenk traded for injured players last season and it's hurting him now. They ask for Max just because is was one of the few players at more than 20pts/10rbd, that's all, but does 20/10 in a bad team without C and a full roster, and not winning, means you deserve Max ? No
So it no players or agents understand that, your job as a GM is to not let them the possibility of using these stats to ask for a stupid contract. I'm not blaming John, every players and agent do that, I'm blaming Schlenk as I see it coming from the start of last season
In the end, this is certainly the reason why some teams don't want to tank at all

[jayu70]

I don't think you can find one person here who is saying, just pay him the max and be done with it.

Right, I was mainly thinking about media article often presenting John like a Max contract player, and after checking, I had misread a post on the previous page.

This why I said that with a well build roster last year, John should have play less, like Sabonis, and the negotiations would have been easier (maybe they would have asked more than 90M but certainly not the Max).
It was just stupid to let him play in third year like Sabonis did in 4th because in a winning team, John may never get the stats he had last season, certainly not more. He was playing without a good C like this season.

I just don't understand what you are trying to say here at all.
When you tank and rebuild, you have to pretty much play your draftees to figure our which ones are keepers or not.
I understand Travis wanting to see how JC would perform without a change in offense from being the primary PnR player and better players around him. I would say his overall stastics haven't changed that much. He's gone from 33mpg and 21.3 ppg/10.1 to 30mpg and 18ppg/7.6rpg. So the raw stats are relatively similar.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/collijo01.html

So if you can offer a lower contract when the guy only played 24min, why was the point the play John 33min ? You don't need 33min to see what he can do, 24min was enough, and in 24min, his stats would have been 15.7pts/7.3rbd
l

Because that's not how it works.

[jayu70]

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John Collins’ future
What the Hawks decide to do in the days leading up to the trade deadline, particularly with Collins, is the biggest storyline for this team. Hawks general manager Travis Schlenk is listening to offers, and The Athletic’s Shams Charania said Atlanta’s asking price so far has been a high first-round, lottery-level pick in any trade discussions.

Collins’ name being in trade talks was always going to be the next course of action after he and his representation turned down a $90 million extension offer before the season. The Hawks can’t negotiate with him until restricted free agency, where the team will have the ability to match any offer. As we’ve previously mentioned, any deal with Collins is difficult to pull off because of his small salary. That’s why he’d likely have to be packaged with a pricier veteran, like Tony Snell, to get a player or players in return who come close to similar value.

Sources close to Collins have felt since the failed contract extension talks that his days in Atlanta were numbered, as they have the sense the team won’t match any significant offer he receives in free agency. But Schlenk publicly said last week he still considers Collins to be a part of the team’s future moving forward.

“He’s made the decision this fall to go to restricted free agency, and that was his choice and obviously we respect it,” Schlenk said. “But we’re going to have the opportunity to match any offer he gets. We’ll certainly make him an offer in free agency as well, and he’ll have the ability to see if he can get an offer from another team. But at the end of the day, we view him as part of our team, and I don’t see a restricted free agency situation where we would just let him walk for nothing.”

From the Hawks’ perspective, if they believe De’Andre Hunter is the second-best player on the roster, paying Collins over $100 million might be a difficult pill to swallow for a team that is still in its infant stages of developing into a contender. What they could do, however, is match an offer sheet in free agency and decide to trade him at a later date on his new contract.

The biggest unknown in all of this is the Tony Ressler factor. How Ressler feels about the Hawks operating over the cap and encroaching on the tax while not being close to winning a championship might not be something he wants to do at this time if it doesn’t bring the team closer to a title. If that’s what Ressler thinks, then Collins likely won’t be around, and the Hawks will go into next season with Hunter, Trae Young and Clint Capela as the core of the franchise.

[jayu70]

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This is the first I've seen regarding JC's ask. $25 per, Hawks offered an average of $22 per.

John Collins, Atlanta Hawks
If you’re a regular reader of the NBA coverage here at The Athletic, you know this story well by now. Collins turned down an extension worth more than $90 million last offseason, making it clear along the way that he sees himself as a max-salary player heading into restricted free agency (sources say he’s pursuing an annual deal in the $25 million range).

The Hawks, sources say, have long since begun talking to teams about moving him and appear to have become more motivated recently. Per Shams, Minnesota and Boston are interested in Collins.

Considering the Hawks (19-20) struggled enough this season to inspire a coaching change and are fighting for their playoff lives, it should come as no surprise that they don’t want to spend upwards of $100 million to make Collins a long-term part of this Hawks core. Then again, they’ve won five consecutive games since the Lloyd Pierce era came to an end and find themselves in eighth place.

Considering all the pressure from owner Tony Ressler to make the playoffs, this is no small feat. It’s also the longest Hawks winning streak since a seven-win stretch that ranged from Dec. 28, 2016, to Jan. 10, 2017. But the closer we get to the deadline, the more likely it seems that Collins will be moved.

The Hawks are pushing hard for a productive young prospect to come their way in return, but Collins’ production (17.8 points, 7.6 rebounds per game) would be hard to push for the playoffs without. Still, it’s felt like that’s where this was headed ever since Hawks GM Travis Schlenk landed big man Clint Capela in February 2020 and thus chipped away at Collins’ leverage in negotiations.
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[Ball4life32]

So they’re most likely trading him at the deadline with his value at its lowest because they don’t want to pay an extra 2-3m a year? Doesn’t make much sense.

[Jamaaliver]

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[HMFFL]

Read on Twitter

I don't know what to believe at this point. I'm.ready for the deadline to be here and over, so if Collins is a Hawk, I hope the rumors end until the off-season.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

[D21]

So they’re most likely trading him at the deadline with his value at its lowest because they don’t want to pay an extra 2-3m a year? Doesn’t make much sense.

If that's true that he wanted 25M/year, then Schlenk would have done something by giving him a decreasing contract : he would have get the biggest year in season 1 (next season) which is good for him, then decreasing the contract and make it easier to extend the other.

Maybe he wanted a 5 years extension but in this case, he would have needed to be one of both designated player allowed in a team, and the first year must be at least at 25% of the cap, but I think you can decrease it.

Staying on a 4 years contract, he was able to set the first year on up to a bit more than 27M, and with a 5% decrease, it makes going from 27M to 23M on year4, and a total of 101M/4 years, exactly what I would have offered if I was Schlenk (breaking the 100M pyschological barrier for Collins, and keeping some flexibility with decreasing contract : less charge on the Cap to extend others, easier to trade later if you think you paid too much for what he brings in the team...)

Whomever the Hawks decide to target, the name floating around from Atlanta's end is John Collins. The fourth-year forward is set to be a restricted free agent this summer and could be in line for a nine-figure deal after he and the Hawks failed to come to an agreement on an extension before the season.

"They're worried he's getting maxed, and they're putting it out there they are willing to pay him if he gets a max but won't be thrilled about it," said an East executive. However, Collins' $4.1 million salary makes it difficult to trade him for an established player, and a deal for the future -- be it young players or draft picks -- doesn't help the Hawks make a playoff push this season. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/31069675/2021-nba-trade-deadline-league-insiders-say-whether-teams-acquire-unload-stand-pat

[Jamaaliver]

NBA Trade Deadline Big Board 2021



3. John Collins, Hawks

This is such a complicated situation because John Collins will be a restricted free agent this summer. Any trade partner should expect that he receives a huge raise very soon. The starting point of negotiations will be well into nine figures over four years. He is a phenomenally talented offensive player who can finish around the basket and hit 3s with confidence. Unquestionably, he’s one of the best roll threats in the league. However, with Clint Capela next to him, he hasn’t gotten as many chances there. He’s also gotten better positionally defensively, even if he’s stuck between the four and five. He’s not a total liability anymore, but can he hold up at center defensively, which is where his rim-running and rolling ability fit best? So far, he hasn’t been good enough protecting the rim.

The other big hurdle is actually the Hawks. Because Travis Schlenk spent aggressively in 2020, the team does not have much capacity to replace Collins through free agency or a different trade. That puts even more pressure on negotiations, assuming Atlanta intends to stay in the playoff picture. The Hawks could also keep him around until a summer sign-and-trade or decide to pay him and stick with him long term. Keep an eye on opportunistic smaller market teams such as the Thunder, Hornets and Kings because talents of Collins’ caliber do not hit the market as often anymore, and match rights hold even more value to teams that rarely woo high-end players in free agency.

The Athletic

[Spud2nique]

Stand pat (minus possibly a minor deal here and there). We need to let this team play this year out. Winning cures all. Don’t Babcock this thing like 93-94, I can’t stomach that again. Go Hawks!

[jayu70]

Per Windy

The Atlanta Hawks have told inquiring teams that they intend to match contract offers for John Collins this offseason, according to Brian Windhorst of ESPN.

Sources tell Zach Lowe that Collins is driving heavy trade interest ahead of the deadline. Collins earns just $4.1 million in the final season of his contract, which makes a trade complicated.

The Hawks offered Collins a four-year, $90 million extension.

BRIAN WINDHORST/ESPN

[shakes0]

Per Windy

The Atlanta Hawks have told inquiring teams that they intend to match contract offers for John Collins this offseason, according to Brian Windhorst of ESPN.

Sources tell Zach Lowe that Collins is driving heavy trade interest ahead of the deadline. Collins earns just $4.1 million in the final season of his contract, which makes a trade complicated.

The Hawks offered Collins a four-year, $90 million extension.

BRIAN WINDHORST/ESPN

I like it, but i would've liked the story better if it also contained the line "have told inquiring teams they have no plans to trade Collins and intend to match any offer he gets this offseason."

[D21]

Per Windy

The Atlanta Hawks have told inquiring teams that they intend to match contract offers for John Collins this offseason, according to Brian Windhorst of ESPN.

Sources tell Zach Lowe that Collins is driving heavy trade interest ahead of the deadline. Collins earns just $4.1 million in the final season of his contract, which makes a trade complicated.

The Hawks offered Collins a four-year, $90 million extension.

BRIAN WINDHORST/ESPN

I like it, but i would've liked the story better if it also contained the line "have told inquiring teams they have no plans to trade Collins and intend to match any offer he gets this offseason."

And they could have said that they offered 90M and he wanted 100M, which would not look like it was a big gap between them

[Galloisdaman]

If the Hawks already offered 4 years at 22.5mill a year and hypothetically John wants 5 years at $25 mill a year it would be silly for both sides not to find a way to compromise. Have 1 side compromise on years and the other side compromise on salary.

[tbhawksfan1]

Per Windy

I like it, but i would've liked the story better if it also contained the line "have told inquiring teams they have no plans to trade Collins and intend to match any offer he gets this offseason."

And they could have said that they offered 90M and he wanted 100M, which would not look like it was a big gap between them

Kinda strange that they couldn't work it out. TS: 4@90. JC no. TS 4@100. JC: Ok. doesn't seem that hard

[D21]

I like it, but i would've liked the story better if it also contained the line "have told inquiring teams they have no plans to trade Collins and intend to match any offer he gets this offseason."

And they could have said that they offered 90M and he wanted 100M, which would not look like it was a big gap between them

Kinda strange that they couldn't work it out. TS: 4@90. JC no. TS 4@100. JC: Ok. doesn't seem that hard

Maybe he wasn't asking 100M/4years but 25M/year over 5 years, which would have looked OK with a flat contract. Other extensions are all at least one year later, so the best thing would even have been a decreasing contract, it was all benefit for both ATL and John

[tbhawksfan1]

And they could have said that they offered 90M and he wanted 100M, which would not look like it was a big gap between them

Kinda strange that they couldn't work it out. TS: 4@90. JC no. TS 4@100. JC: Ok. doesn't seem that hard

Maybe he wasn't asking 100M/4years but 25M/year over 5 years, which would have looked OK with a flat contract. Other extensions are all at least one year later, so the best thing would even have been a decreasing contract, it was all benefit for both ATL and John

Point is that they should have been able to work it out and avoiding it going to RFA and letting other teams get in the door

[D21]

Kinda strange that they couldn't work it out. TS: 4@90. JC no. TS 4@100. JC: Ok. doesn't seem that hard

Maybe he wasn't asking 100M/4years but 25M/year over 5 years, which would have looked OK with a flat contract. Other extensions are all at least one year later, so the best thing would even have been a decreasing contract, it was all benefit for both ATL and John

Point is that they should have been able to work it out and avoiding it going to RFA and letting other teams get in the door

For sure, I mainly think that not going higher than 100M line was the problem, not the 4 or 5 years
I find it a bit stupid from Schlenk as it was easy to frontload this contract and reduce John cost for the following years

[VCfor3]

I can't see a way Collins isn't with you guys after the deadline if I'm honest. That said I was trying to find something that may make at least a little sense if your FO really was against paying him a max contract. By a little sense I mean you guys don't hang up, ponder a moment, and then politely decline.

MIN in: Collins
ATL in: 23 MIN 1st (top 4 prot), 24 swap (top 4 prot), PF from 3rd team

For the third team I was looking at two options:
MEM: Anderson for Culver (Rondo to MIN)
ORL: Gordon for Culver, Snell, 2nds from MIN

So basically you guys get either Kyle Anderson or Aaron Gordon who are starting level PFs that aren't TOO old plus a pick and a swap from a dysfunctional franchise. Your playoff push this year would definitely take a hit since both players I suggested would be worse than Collins, but unless GSW puts the MIN pick on the table I don't know if another team would really beat this offer.

Again, I expect Collins to be with you guys for the next few years. His offense is important and you definitely want to see what you have in Hunter paired with Collins before making any drastic decisions. In theory Trae/Hunter/Collins/Capela is a strong enough core moving forward that you just need to figure out what you want to do at SG and then let your guys develop into hopefully a contender.

PS: Feel free to throw this in the trade thread if you prefer.