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How do the Hawks get better defensively?

Moderators: ATL Boy, dms269, HMFFL

What needs to happen to fix the defense?

Better Effort
2
11%
Better Coaching
2
11%
Better Players
15
79%
 
Total votes: 19

_s_t_u_r_t_
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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#41 » by _s_t_u_r_t_ » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:02 pm

Never mind the matador thing that Trae did that allowed Jimmy Butler easy access, and made his last tenth-of-a-second heroics necessary.

It's one thing to get muscled out, and get taken advantage of.... Trae gets out-quicked, though, and that truly ought to be the one area of defense where very few players take advantage of him... he ought to be able to stay in front of a guy better than most.

And in no universe is there good defense being played when you give up 120+ points to anyone.
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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#42 » by Geaux_Hawks » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:12 pm

_s_t_u_r_t_ wrote:I'm slow to grant new NBA coaches whatever genius reputation they gained while they served as assistants.

Which is why, I'm hoping our head coach, who came to us with the defensive genius rep maybe will take inventory and look for others' input as well, considering if there are some things he could be doing better in terms of his coaching, whether during practice time, or actual in-game.

No one has bothered, unless I missed it, to look at the month to month numbers to see if there are hints that our defense has gotten better. Pardon the observation, but really, there are some of you who obviously spend hours on this site every day... surely you can take a few minutes and look into that.

Having said that, I wouldn't have expected the team to get appreciably better with the injection of a rookie PG who everyone and his brother and his brother's barber's wife's boss knew had no defensive game to speak of, and only meh defensive games from the other two rookies getting any time.

We need better from Trae, for sure. I agree with those who think there's going to be some natural growth. But it's really got to be a focus for him in the off-season.


With consideration that most sites only breakdown on a yearly sum, it's kind of hard to find month to month stats. NBA.com does it monthly, but it doesn't do certain stats. With that said, you are correct that no one has gotten better based off of NBA.com

Should I be attributing that to Pierce not doing a good job? I don't think so. The blame can easily be pointed at him since a few guys from last year have dropped in def efficiency overall, but I think a lot of these guys are not that good defensively in the first place or the lack of having an anchor on defense right now to erase mistakes is punishing us.

The Sixers were just as bad when Brown and Pierce first got to Philly. They had nothing in terms of defensive studs. Once they started adding defenders into the lineup, things took a turn. We went into the draft and added shooting and passing. Completely overlooked defense as a whole.

Again Prince has the potential to be better. Collins as well, but I'm not going to get my hopes in thinking he will ever be a juggernaut on defense. Young may only become an average defender at best. We could go on and on about where these guys are currently, but at the end of the day, we need better personnel on defense regardless of how you cut it. Pierce can only do so much in 1 year with what we have currently.
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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#43 » by _s_t_u_r_t_ » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:27 pm

Here's at least something statistical... opponents scores, first by half-month averages, then by 10-game averages. And yes, I did correct for overtime games, only counting the regulation numbers.

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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#44 » by jayu70 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:48 pm

Question?
How does these defensive metrics/stats/onoff/+_, etc account for cross matching on defense.

Example: when we played the Wiz, Satoransky was the starting PG, he guarded Trae but Trae guarded Ariza. I only remember because some 'twot' on the GB said Sato was taking Trae to lunch from only boxscore watching and not the actual game.

How is the defensive metric for Trae calculated for Trae if he's not guarding the PG but they're using the PG offensive stats to work the math OR are they?
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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#45 » by peoriabird » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:56 pm

_s_t_u_r_t_ wrote:Never mind the matador thing that Trae did that allowed Jimmy Butler easy access, and made his last tenth-of-a-second heroics necessary.

It's one thing to get muscled out, and get taken advantage of.... Trae gets out-quicked, though, and that truly ought to be the one area of defense where very few players take advantage of him... he ought to be able to stay in front of a guy better than most.

And in no universe is there good defense being played when you give up 120+ points to anyone.

The Hawks play at the 2nd fastest pace in the league...By the way Boston gave up 130 points to same team so are they a bad defensive team too? Also Ben Simmons must be a terrible defender since he allow Prince easy access to the rim moments later.
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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#46 » by _s_t_u_r_t_ » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:15 pm

So, wait.... peoria, you're attempting to argue that we aren't a bad defensive team?... and on what basis again?... Boston?... in one game?

And Trae isn't a bad defender?

Yikes.

I'll agree with you on this much... simply looking at opponents' scores alone isn't the end-all. But it is an indicator, no question.

But you alude to pace.... that advanced stat would be a lot kinder to us if we weren't the league's clear worst in TOV%... so, in other words, the pace number would be smaller, except that we give the ball away prematurely decidedly more often than even our closest competitor at #29.
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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#47 » by _s_t_u_r_t_ » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:18 pm

jayu70 wrote:Question?
How does these defensive metrics/stats/onoff/+_, etc account for cross matching on defense.

Example: when we played the Wiz, Satoransky was the starting PG, he guarded Trae but Trae guarded Ariza. I only remember because some 'twot' on the GB said Sato was taking Trae to lunch from only boxscore watching and not the actual game.

How is the defensive metric for Trae calculated for Trae if he's not guarding the PG but they're using the PG offensive stats to work the math OR are they?


My understanding is, it doesn't account for it, and I can't imagine how it could, apart from something more intensive that includes scouting notes.

But the power of the stat over so many minutes in a season eventually reduces error like that to something miniscule.
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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#48 » by peoriabird » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:24 pm

_s_t_u_r_t_ wrote:So, wait.... peoria, you're attempting to argue that we aren't a bad defensive team?... and on what basis again?... Boston?... in one game?

I'll agree with you on this much... simply looking at opponents' scores alone isn't the end-all. But it is an indicator, no question.

I'm saying that they are getting better. I see improvement with John Collin and Prince. I also see improved effort with Trae. I get tired of listening to the Roland and Siegel narrative that no Hawk ever improves... The claim at the beginning of the season was John is what he is a non starter and rookies are bad so Trae will be bad offensively. They have since given up on criticizing their offense because of so much growth and now have move on to criticize them defensively. All I am saying is give these guys a chance to become men and gel as a defensive unit. After a few seasons together, then criticize if you feel compelled to do so. It's just way too early to judge now.
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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#49 » by _s_t_u_r_t_ » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:35 pm

Don't pretend I'm some hyper-critic. I'm not. I'm among the more optimistic Hawk posters. But I do call balls AND strikes because I think attempts at balanced judgment is a good thing.

Others can be counted on to be Debbie Downers from post to post. Other others can be counted on for their rose-colored glasses from post to post.

To say "they're getting better" and "I see improvement" is easily said, but hard to quantify. Notice that in the same paragraph, you began it by saying, in effect, in my judgment they're improving... and then... you end it saying, don't judge. :noway:

I for one am not reaching a judgment/conclusion as-if they are what they're always going to be. I am, though, trying to see if there's anything quantitative that tells us what we all wish were true... as opposed to just one amateur scout's anecdotal assessment. Right now, it's not evident that there is anything quantitative.
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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#50 » by peoriabird » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:43 pm

_s_t_u_r_t_ wrote:Don't pretend I'm some hyper-critic. I'm not. I'm among the more optimistic Hawk posters. But I do call balls AND strikes because I think attempts at balanced judgment is a good thing.

Others can be counted on to be Debbie Downers from post to post. Other others can be counted on for their rose-colored glasses from post to post.

To say "they're getting better" and "I see improvement" is easily said, but hard to quantify. Notice that in the same paragraph, you began it by saying, in effect, in my judgment they're improving... and then... you end it saying, don't judge. :noway:

I for one am not reaching a judgment/conclusion as-if they are what they're always going to be. I am, though, trying to see if there's anything quantitative that tells us what we all wish were true... as opposed to just one amateur scout's anecdotal assessment. Right now, it's not evident that there is anything quantitative.

No problem my brother..I'm not going to waste my time trying to gauge anything. I just enjoy watch games
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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#51 » by _s_t_u_r_t_ » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:49 pm

Which sounds a lot like, "Relax. Enjoy the ride. Just based on how I've heard the engine running, and the roads we've travelled, I feel like we have enough gas."

hehe

No thanks. I like meters and dashboards and numbers.
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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#52 » by peoriabird » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:54 pm

_s_t_u_r_t_ wrote:Which sounds a lot like, "Relax. Enjoy the ride. Just based on how I've heard the engine running, and the roads we've travelled, I feel like we have enough gas."

hehe

No thanks. I like meters and dashboards and numbers.

Kinda weird trying to control something that is total out of your control but whatever
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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#53 » by _s_t_u_r_t_ » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:01 pm

Weak.

Who's "trying to control?"

I'm trying to assess.

Which is what almost all of our discussion on this board is about.

Don't kid yourself. That's what you're doing, too, but you just evidently prefer to defend your right to pick and choose data while wearing rose-colored glasses.

You have every right.

But so do the rest of us have every right to call balls AND strikes.
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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#54 » by jayu70 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:06 pm

peoriabird wrote:I'm saying that they are getting better. I see improvement with John Collin and Prince. I also see improved effort with Trae. I get tired of listening to the Roland and Siegel narrative that no Hawk ever improves... The claim at the beginning of the season was John is what he is a non starter and rookies are bad so Trae will be bad offensively. They have since given up on criticizing their offense because of so much growth and now have move on to criticize them defensively. All I am saying is give these guys a chance to become men and gel as a defensive unit. After a few seasons together, then criticize if you feel compelled to do so. It's just way too early to judge now.

Here you go Peo...Like you said...getting better perhaps. Hopefully a sign of things to come next season!
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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#55 » by _s_t_u_r_t_ » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:20 pm

He can't control how many blocks Collins has.

So fahgetaboutit... he doesn't care.

;)
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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#56 » by peoriabird » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:50 pm

jayu70 wrote:
peoriabird wrote:I'm saying that they are getting better. I see improvement with John Collin and Prince. I also see improved effort with Trae. I get tired of listening to the Roland and Siegel narrative that no Hawk ever improves... The claim at the beginning of the season was John is what he is a non starter and rookies are bad so Trae will be bad offensively. They have since given up on criticizing their offense because of so much growth and now have move on to criticize them defensively. All I am saying is give these guys a chance to become men and gel as a defensive unit. After a few seasons together, then criticize if you feel compelled to do so. It's just way too early to judge now.

Here you go Peo...Like you said...getting better perhaps. Hopefully a sign of things to come next season!
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I would have posted raw numbers too but a certain poster would have argue about that too. I'll just leave certain guys alone. Thanks though
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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#57 » by _s_t_u_r_t_ » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:34 pm

It's only the umps who do their job favoring the pitcher or the batter who dislike the umps who call both balls AND strikes.
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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#58 » by Hazer » Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:08 pm

_s_t_u_r_t_ wrote:It's only the umps who do their job favoring the pitcher or the batter who dislike the umps who call both balls AND strikes.

We all know what each kind of poster is, it’s self-evident and goes without saying. Maybe having to say it is trying to convince yourself. Balls AND strikes, we get it. 3 times :wink:
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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#59 » by _s_t_u_r_t_ » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:02 pm

The comment wasn't about me. It was about people who don't like me. ;)

And why they don't.
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Re: How do the Hawks get better defensively? 

Post#60 » by gurpilo » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:37 pm

The more I think about this I get to the same conclussion. We need a defensive center and a lock down defender at the wing, a 3 and D player. Collins and Young will improve and Huerter is already decent defender. Big part of the improvemente is going to be intensive sessions at the gym, our 3 rookies are really slim, they need to get stronger so that they are not pushed bu other players.

On the draft Reddish, Hunter, Bol and Hayes can fill the role.

2nd rd can provide some other options as Thybulle and Kabele, even Gafford.

On FA there are some options too.

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