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Trae's Defense

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WuriderX
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Trae's Defense 

Post#1 » by WuriderX » Thu Apr 4, 2019 2:27 pm

Can he get better defensively and if so how? I see the effort is there because it is not like he is just letting his man blow by him.
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Re: Trae's Defense 

Post#2 » by Sothron » Thu Apr 4, 2019 2:43 pm

He can get better defensively but he doesn't have the size and arm length to be a great on ball defender. If we can get him up from terrible to average then his value on the court is insane. I love Steve Nash but he was always a terrible defender. Steph Curry is still a below average defender but at least he's not terrible any more. If Young just gets to average then look out NBA.
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Re: Trae's Defense 

Post#3 » by benhillboy » Thu Apr 4, 2019 2:46 pm

Yup. He isn’t a sieve like most believe or would assume. I don’t want to hear much about on/off, +/- when he was admittedly one of THE worst players in the league for the first month and Klay Thompson is the 92nd rated SG in terms of RDPM. Your whole day could pass by arguing all the outliers and variables that go into those values. Coaching, role, assignments, teammates, division, minutes, raw numbers, dueling eye tests, etc. I love stats but It’s gotten to be too much.

I think D is majority effort and IQ. He knows as the unquestioned leader on offense he has to at least set good examples on D as the man out front. He takes good angles and tries to stay in front. I’ve seen too many near-deflections for my liking because his arms are so short. But he communicates well and has a great nose for rebounds/ loose balls in his area. His lateral quickness is good and the elite start-stop ability he has on offense translates somewhat. He’s made enough encouraging plays throughout the season that I’d never expect (blocked jumpshot, won tip, preventing Redick’s corner three attempt, etc)

If he can be a talkative and engaged team defender and give me 5 boards and a steal I’m gucci. With added talent the mismatches where he gets crammed into the basket with the ball (about 4-5 times a game) will decrease. Just compete. I’d never have any delusions he could lead the league in steals like Steph, sniff an All-Defensive Team like CP3, or set the tone like Beverly. Just be crafty and resourceful enough to avoid being a net negative from night to night. His offensive impact is too great to compromise in any way.
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Re: Trae's Defense 

Post#4 » by King Ken » Thu Apr 4, 2019 3:37 pm

Benhill pretty much covered it
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Re: Trae's Defense 

Post#5 » by Hazer » Thu Apr 4, 2019 3:47 pm

Sothron wrote:He can get better defensively but he doesn't have the size and arm length to be a great on ball defender. If we can get him up from terrible to average then his value on the court is insane. I love Steve Nash but he was always a terrible defender. Steph Curry is still a below average defender but at least he's not terrible any more. If Young just gets to average then look out NBA.

He doesn’t even need to be average, and probably never will be. Anything better than gawdawful and worst in the league will be big. He keeps up the effort and tenacity, gets to “barely bad”, then he’ll be fine.
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Re: Trae's Defense 

Post#6 » by graymule » Thu Apr 4, 2019 3:59 pm

8-)

One lesson that all new NBA players must learn - - How to play defense without fouling. If Trae's defense suffers,
it's because we do not want him to foul out in the third quarter. He's learning. Collins is a good example of
fouling out too soon. - :banghead:

Lots of things for this Hawk team to work on this off season. Just think of how much better the second half
of this season has been.

:D
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Re: Trae's Defense 

Post#7 » by shakes0 » Thu Apr 4, 2019 4:03 pm

I think it's real simple. His defense will improve when we add some rim protection and some good long wing defenders.
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Re: Trae's Defense 

Post#8 » by shakes0 » Thu Apr 4, 2019 4:42 pm

King Ken wrote:Benhill pretty much covered it



yep, accidentally unliked his post thinking I hadn't liked it already.
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Re: Trae's Defense 

Post#9 » by _s_t_u_r_t_ » Thu Apr 4, 2019 5:23 pm

shakes0 wrote:I think it's real simple. His defense will improve when we add some rim protection and some good long wing defenders.


Yeah, can we get Dedmon?

Bazemore?

Wait. I take that back.

When we signed Len, he was considered to be almost the rim protector that Dedmon was.

And Bembry has begun to show some new consistency defensively from game to game.

I don't think this is anyone's problem but Trae's.

So will his defense improve? Probably, just because he'll better recognize what his opponent is trying to do, by virtue of experience and maturity. Intelligence is a big part of being a good defender, and is what allows instincts to be productive. I think... think... Trae has good instincts, but just not the experience yet to make those instincts work sufficiently to his favor.

Also, he'll probably improve because it's fairly typical of all players that they gain some girth as they get beyond 25, and his lack of girth makes him more vulnerable.

What he has going for him is that he's cat quick. He doesn't have to be a steals leader. He just needs to get better at staying in front of his man, and fighting through screens. He has the talent to do the former right now... he will be more capable of the latter as he gains some more physical mass.
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Re: Trae's Defense 

Post#10 » by Atlanta Hawk Fan » Thu Apr 4, 2019 5:48 pm

Very different players but he should be able to improve in a Kyle Korver way by maximizing his alertness, positioning and fundamentals. Now if he can just learn to block shots like KK....
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Re: Trae's Defense 

Post#11 » by kg01 » Thu Apr 4, 2019 5:54 pm

He's already improved on defense. He started from absolute zero. Never had to do it, never had to learn it. (Shout out, Lon Krueger.)

Now he's in an environment that requires him to do both. Give the dude time, he's savvy enough to get the nuances of it. That, in addition to increased effort, fitness and strength, will do wonders for him on that end.

And the talk that his on-ball defense is bad is plainly false. That's one area he's actually not been that bad, especially lately. He lacks nuance that would preclude his lack of size from being as big an issue as it is.

Sorry he was unable to stop Jimi Butler from barreling through his chest last night. With an increased understanding, he should be able to navigate that situation much better.

It has little to do with actual size. It's more about understanding what to do.

I said it before and I'll keep saying it. Anti-Trae folks continuously fall back on the size thing since all the other criticisms have gone up in flames this season.

Stahhp it.
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Re: Trae's Defense 

Post#12 » by kg01 » Thu Apr 4, 2019 6:01 pm

... and furthermore, can we stop with defensive analytics? Or can we at least acknowledge the multitude of flaws associated with trying to quantify defensive "impact"?

The old guard probably remembers that, despite being a numbers guy, I do not subscribe to analytics to a large degree. Simply because people are not robots and it is literally impossible to quantify many aspects of the game that folks are attaching statistics to nowadays.

This has nothing to do with Trae, specifically. I just hate the way people spout these numbers with no apparent or actual knowledge about what they represent.

If you want to use a number, fine. But you also need to include a disclaimer that there are several factors that cannot be captured by the statistic you're quoting. I don't care how many eggsperts keep citing them.
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Re: Trae's Defense 

Post#13 » by Atlanta Hawk Fan » Thu Apr 4, 2019 6:18 pm

kg01 wrote:He's already improved on defense. He started from absolute zero. Never had to do it, never had to learn it. (Shout out, Lon Krueger.)

Now he's in an environment that requires him to do both. Give the dude time, he's savvy enough to get the nuances of it. That, in addition to increased effort, fitness and strength, will do wonders for him on that end.


Totally on board with all of this.

It has little to do with actual size. It's more about understanding what to do.

I said it before and I'll keep saying it. Anti-Trae folks continuously fall back on the size thing since all the other criticisms have gone up in flames this season.

Stahhp it.


Going to have to disagree with you on this one. His size and strength are big limitations for him as a defender long-term. They are similar to a big man with short arms - that simple physical aspect (size) will always limit what he can do defensively.

The key for him is doing all the little things that can be done to overcome that limitation. There is a reason no one considers him being the next Gary Payton to be even theoretically in the cards, though. It is because there is no amount of improved fitness, savvy, learning the nuances, etc. that will ever let him do the things that someone like that can do. It doesn't mean he can't be a much better defender than people who are much more physically gifted but who don't develop the mental side of it like he will hopefully do. Like it isn't out of the realm of possibility that he could be a better defender than Russell Westbrook because Westbrook never focuses on D and is so prone to just losing his man off the ball, gambling for exciting plays, etc.
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Re: Trae's Defense 

Post#14 » by LunchBox21 » Thu Apr 4, 2019 6:23 pm

_s_t_u_r_t_ wrote:
shakes0 wrote:I think it's real simple. His defense will improve when we add some rim protection and some good long wing defenders.


Yeah, can we get Dedmon?

Bazemore?

Wait. I take that back.

When we signed Len, he was considered to be almost the rim protector that Dedmon was.

And Bembry has begun to show some new consistency defensively from game to game.

I don't think this is anyone's problem but Trae's.

So will his defense improve? Probably, just because he'll better recognize what his opponent is trying to do, by virtue of experience and maturity. Intelligence is a big part of being a good defender, and is what allows instincts to be productive. I think... think... Trae has good instincts, but just not the experience yet to make those instincts work sufficiently to his favor.

Also, he'll probably improve because it's fairly typical of all players that they gain some girth as they get beyond 25, and his lack of girth makes him more vulnerable.

What he has going for him is that he's cat quick. He doesn't have to be a steals leader. He just needs to get better at staying in front of his man, and fighting through screens. He has the talent to do the former right now... he will be more capable of the latter as he gains some more physical mass.


The Hawks need defenders that change the way teams attack you, none of the guys you mentioned are on that level (honestly, they're all pretty average). It doesn't have to be a Gobert or Embiid, but close.
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Re: Trae's Defense 

Post#15 » by Atlantaholic » Thu Apr 4, 2019 6:24 pm

WuriderX wrote:Can he get better defensively and if so how? I see the effort is there because it is not like he is just letting his man blow by him.


He needs to learn to be a pest and get a couple of steals a game. Odds are he will always be bad at on-ball defense. He's just too small.
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Re: Trae's Defense 

Post#16 » by shakes0 » Thu Apr 4, 2019 6:35 pm

_s_t_u_r_t_ wrote:
shakes0 wrote:I think it's real simple. His defense will improve when we add some rim protection and some good long wing defenders.


Yeah, can we get Dedmon?

Bazemore?

Wait. I take that back.

When we signed Len, he was considered to be almost the rim protector that Dedmon was.

And Bembry has begun to show some new consistency defensively from game to game.

I don't think this is anyone's problem but Trae's.

So will his defense improve? Probably, just because he'll better recognize what his opponent is trying to do, by virtue of experience and maturity. Intelligence is a big part of being a good defender, and is what allows instincts to be productive. I think... think... Trae has good instincts, but just not the experience yet to make those instincts work sufficiently to his favor.

Also, he'll probably improve because it's fairly typical of all players that they gain some girth as they get beyond 25, and his lack of girth makes him more vulnerable.

What he has going for him is that he's cat quick. He doesn't have to be a steals leader. He just needs to get better at staying in front of his man, and fighting through screens. He has the talent to do the former right now... he will be more capable of the latter as he gains some more physical mass.


If Dedmon and Bazemore are the answer, then me and you are asking totally different questions.
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Re: Trae's Defense 

Post#17 » by observer1995 » Thu Apr 4, 2019 7:24 pm

Kent Bazemore is not a great defender in a non Mike Budenholzer system on defense, he's just a guy that brings a great deal of energy. Bud made that boy, not Bazemore himself and I'm not sure why people still think he can start without that structured system.

I'm not sure why we keep rounding this circle anyway. It's clear what most opinions are here. For the season, once you changed the system and philosophy, you only had two actual good defenders, Bembry and Dedmon. That's it. No more. Justin Anderson might be a good defender, but he didn't start getting real PT until we started playing out the mark.
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Re: Trae's Defense 

Post#18 » by personanongrata » Thu Apr 4, 2019 7:52 pm

Every all-time great team has at least one guy that is a lock down defender. We need one of those guys.
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Re: Trae's Defense 

Post#19 » by jayu70 » Thu Apr 4, 2019 8:27 pm

.....he should be better next season. Just his understanding of the team defense should be better, he should get a stronger to fight through screens better. His effort throughout the season has improved.
Early in the season, he played defense for about 6 seconds of a possession, now he plays it for 24 seconds.
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Re: Trae's Defense 

Post#20 » by turnermx » Thu Apr 4, 2019 8:42 pm

jayu70 wrote:.....he should be better next season. Just his understanding of the team defense should be better, he should get a stronger to fight through screens better. His effort throughout the season has improved.
Early in the season, he played defense for about 6 seconds of a possession, now he plays it for 24 seconds.


Exactly Jaybird, the team defense overall should be better which should make him better as well. Steph doesn't get all those steals for GSW if he doesn't have Klay and Draymond behind him for help. Trae will be able to gamble a little more and get steals eventually once there is confidence in the help coming. I've seen much improvement since the start of the season for both he and Collins.

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