What do you think of Bud now?

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

AHF, given your profession, you know even better than I that one doesn't defeat a developed argument by simply writing a sentence of protest.

And one could just as rationally say, "It is fair to assume Ressler wasn't going to offer Bud an extension that would have given Bud reassurance that he would be valued well-after the tank period was over." I don't even know how one begins to absolve Ressler as being the prime mover throughout the whole process... he set things in motion, he changed the motion... the inferior doesn't get to make the decisions that the superior does, but/and is always in a reactionary position as a consequence.

I'd respond further, but there's nothing there to respond to... I've already made the case that if one bothers to put himself in Bud's shoes and sees the situation as dire as he had to have seen it, it's not at all difficult to understand why he would seek an extension, and failing that, would look for his next lilypad.

I try to be fair. I find I don't get myself into as many hypocritical conundrums as a result, and simultaneously, I don't end up investing too much emotion in any one player, or in this case, coach.

[JazzUte88]

Bud has already won 60 games before.

[Atlanta Hawk Fan]

well this has all been debated before but since we're bringing it up again. What's an example of a coach who just walked away from his contract 'honorably' and left millions of dollars behind? And are we bashing Bud's teams stats last year when he was under a directive to tank? Had we had good offensive efficiency you'd be destroying him for selfishly ruining our tank and now you are saying he sucks because the team wasn't very good last year. Let's get real. And if you sincerely believe Travis wanted Bud around for the long haul then you're in fantasy land.

First, I think that Bud is a great coach - not that he sucks.

Second, I think that Koonan's statement made it clear that Ressler was thinking Bud would be returning. I don't think Koonan is dumb enough to float in the face of published rumors that Bud wanted out without Ressler having telegraphed that to him.

Third, I have little doubt that after meeting with Bud that everyone was happy to part ways and move on.

The usual way this goes in contracts without a buyout is to mutually agree on a buyout when the parties want to move forward or when a coach wants to be released from his contract.

For anecdotes, think about other Georgia connected coaches and how this was done.

* Doc Rivers wanted to leave Boston when they started rebuilding and go to LA. Did he demand to be paid and released? No. He got paid $0 by the Celts (the Celts actually ended up getting comp for the move).

* When Bobby Petrino chose to bail on the Falcons with 4 years left on his deal he got paid $0 by the Falcons after that.

* For Atlanta United, Tata waited until his contract expired and then moved to another team.

* Mark Richt was under contract through 2023 and didn't demand another penny when it became clear he and Miami wanted to part ways after a disappointing season for the Hurricanes.

The normal way to approach this would have been for Bud to agree to take something like $4M from Atlanta as a buyout, for him to sign a new contract with the Bucks and keep that money, and for everyone to move on.

It is highly unusual to demand the full $13M to go coach a rival team. The fact that he didn't want to stick with the team through a rebuild that he (as a key part of Budcox) had a big part in necessitating doesn't earn him fan points from me. I get it and am not going to say it makes him a terrible person but it lessens my affection for him as a Hawks fan. The fact that he got greedy on the way out is just an extra jab that sours it a bit more.

[fuzzy1]

Well said

well this has all been debated before but since we're bringing it up again. What's an example of a coach who just walked away from his contract 'honorably' and left millions of dollars behind? And are we bashing Bud's teams stats last year when he was under a directive to tank? Had we had good offensive efficiency you'd be destroying him for selfishly ruining our tank and now you are saying he sucks because the team wasn't very good last year. Let's get real. And if you sincerely believe Travis wanted Bud around for the long haul then you're in fantasy land.

First, I think that Bud is a great coach - not that he sucks.

Second, I think that Koonan's statement made it clear that Ressler was thinking Bud would be returning. I don't think Koonan is dumb enough to float in the face of published rumors that Bud wanted out without Ressler having telegraphed that to him.

Third, I have little doubt that after meeting with Bud that everyone was happy to part ways and move on.

The usual way this goes in contracts without a buyout is to mutually agree on a buyout when the parties want to move forward or when a coach wants to be released from his contract.

For anecdotes, think about other Georgia connected coaches and how this was done.

* Doc Rivers wanted to leave Boston when they started rebuilding and go to LA. Did he demand to be paid and released? No. He got paid $0 by the Celts (the Celts actually ended up getting comp for the move).

* When Bobby Petrino chose to bail on the Falcons with 4 years left on his deal he got paid $0 by the Falcons after that.

* For Atlanta United, Tata waited until his contract expired and then moved to another team.

* Mark Richt was under contract through 2023 and didn't demand another penny when it became clear he and Miami wanted to part ways after a disappointing season for the Hurricanes.

The normal way to approach this would have been for Bud to agree to take something like $4M from Atlanta as a buyout, for him to sign a new contract with the Bucks and keep that money, and for everyone to move on.

It is highly unusual to demand the full $13M to go coach a rival team. The fact that he didn't want to stick with the team through a rebuild that he (as a key part of Budcox) had a big part in necessitating doesn't earn him fan points from me. I get it and am not going to say it makes him a terrible person but it lessens my affection for him as a Hawks fan. The fact that he got greedy on the way out is just an extra jab that sours it a bit more.

Sent from my SM-J700T using RealGM mobile app

[peoriabird]

Well said

well this has all been debated before but since we're bringing it up again. What's an example of a coach who just walked away from his contract 'honorably' and left millions of dollars behind? And are we bashing Bud's teams stats last year when he was under a directive to tank? Had we had good offensive efficiency you'd be destroying him for selfishly ruining our tank and now you are saying he sucks because the team wasn't very good last year. Let's get real. And if you sincerely believe Travis wanted Bud around for the long haul then you're in fantasy land.

First, I think that Bud is a great coach - not that he sucks.

Second, I think that Koonan's statement made it clear that Ressler was thinking Bud would be returning. I don't think Koonan is dumb enough to float in the face of published rumors that Bud wanted out without Ressler having telegraphed that to him.

Third, I have little doubt that after meeting with Bud that everyone was happy to part ways and move on.

The usual way this goes in contracts without a buyout is to mutually agree on a buyout when the parties want to move forward or when a coach wants to be released from his contract.

For anecdotes, think about other Georgia connected coaches and how this was done.

* Doc Rivers wanted to leave Boston when they started rebuilding and go to LA. Did he demand to be paid and released? No. He got paid $0 by the Celts (the Celts actually ended up getting comp for the move).

* When Bobby Petrino chose to bail on the Falcons with 4 years left on his deal he got paid $0 by the Falcons after that.

* For Atlanta United, Tata waited until his contract expired and then moved to another team.

* Mark Richt was under contract through 2023 and didn't demand another penny when it became clear he and Miami wanted to part ways after a disappointing season for the Hurricanes.

The normal way to approach this would have been for Bud to agree to take something like $4M from Atlanta as a buyout, for him to sign a new contract with the Bucks and keep that money, and for everyone to move on.

It is highly unusual to demand the full $13M to go coach a rival team. The fact that he didn't want to stick with the team through a rebuild that he (as a key part of Budcox) had a big part in necessitating doesn't earn him fan points from me. I get it and am not going to say it makes him a terrible person but it lessens my affection for him as a Hawks fan. The fact that he got greedy on the way out is just an extra jab that sours it a bit more.

Sent from my SM-J700T using RealGM mobile app

Agreed..Well said but some still won't understand or refuse to acknowledge the prior precedent regarding breech of contracts.

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

Sorry, guys, I just think some of you are completely ignoring some obvious things here.

1. Any one can demand stuff, but in the words of the great philosophers Jagger and Richards... you can't always get what you want.

Look, Bud can "demand" whatever he wants to demand, but clearly Ressler could have declined if, in his own judgment, knowing all that he knew of the situation (much of it stuff that, if we're honest, we don't), he thought the demand was unfair.

Ressler had ultimate control over what he considered to be satisfactory, and if need be, to take it to court... and probably even would have had a solid case to say Bud's flirtations with other teams, and arguing that that materially breached the standing contract in a way that Ressler maybe shouldn't have owed him a dime.

2. You can offer all the precedent you want, but you'll fail to come up with a situation that mirrors this one with any exact precision, even merely on the basis of what we DO know... let alone, a whole lot that we can't, for lack of mics and cameras placed strategically behind closed doors.

It sounds good to those who just want to demonize the one side of this, but not to any of us who hold objectivity as a higher priority.

3. Two things can be true at once.

That is, we agree that Koonin seemed to believe something very good was going to happen. Before it didn't. And what was that something good?

It seems we both might agree that Ressler had made an offer to Bud that Koonin thought Bud was going to take... hence what he said in the radio interview that he thought it was all going to end up in a surprisingly positive way.

But what was that offer? Was it even an extension, or just a verbal affirmation to leave Bud alone and let him coach? Or, maybe a verbal affirmation that he would be granted a stronger voice in roster decisions after all. Or, if it was an extension, how much of an extension--ie, enough to reassure Bud that he would still be the coach after the tank period was done? So, another 2 or 3 years beyond the 2 remaining?

None of us can say. At least, none of us slow to presume, and slow to demonize.

All we can say is, it wasn't good enough to persuade Bud, and Ressler evidently believed the terms of separation were fair given the knowledge he had of the situation, some of which we know, but some of which we might not, and probably don't, know.

[macd-gm]

well this has all been debated before but since we're bringing it up again. What's an example of a coach who just walked away from his contract 'honorably' and left millions of dollars behind? And are we bashing Bud's teams stats last year when he was under a directive to tank? Had we had good offensive efficiency you'd be destroying him for selfishly ruining our tank and now you are saying he sucks because the team wasn't very good last year. Let's get real. And if you sincerely believe Travis wanted Bud around for the long haul then you're in fantasy land.

First, I think that Bud is a great coach - not that he sucks.

Second, I think that Koonan's statement made it clear that Ressler was thinking Bud would be returning. I don't think Koonan is dumb enough to float in the face of published rumors that Bud wanted out without Ressler having telegraphed that to him.

Third, I have little doubt that after meeting with Bud that everyone was happy to part ways and move on.

The usual way this goes in contracts without a buyout is to mutually agree on a buyout when the parties want to move forward or when a coach wants to be released from his contract.

For anecdotes, think about other Georgia connected coaches and how this was done.

* Doc Rivers wanted to leave Boston when they started rebuilding and go to LA. Did he demand to be paid and released? No. He got paid $0 by the Celts (the Celts actually ended up getting comp for the move).

* When Bobby Petrino chose to bail on the Falcons with 4 years left on his deal he got paid $0 by the Falcons after that.

* For Atlanta United, Tata waited until his contract expired and then moved to another team.

* Mark Richt was under contract through 2023 and didn't demand another penny when it became clear he and Miami wanted to part ways after a disappointing season for the Hurricanes.

The normal way to approach this would have been for Bud to agree to take something like $4M from Atlanta as a buyout, for him to sign a new contract with the Bucks and keep that money, and for everyone to move on.

It is highly unusual to demand the full $13M to go coach a rival team. The fact that he didn't want to stick with the team through a rebuild that he (as a key part of Budcox) had a big part in necessitating doesn't earn him fan points from me. I get it and am not going to say it makes him a terrible person but it lessens my affection for him as a Hawks fan. The fact that he got greedy on the way out is just an extra jab that sours it a bit more.

This is inaccurate. Bud never demanded anything. The only thing he did was ask to interview with other teams and that wish was granted. They could have said no and then Bud would have had to bail with nothing like the examples you brought up. They granted it and then got impatient with how long it was taking and then negotiated a buyout with him. He never demanded anything and did not get his full amount at all. The Hawks are paying the difference in his new and old contracts which is frankly unheard of for when a coach is fired which is what this equates to.

But the bigger point is how is this Bud's fault and not total failure by ownership (assuming your assertion that this was somehow horribly unfair to the Hawks). If Bud pulled off some unprecedented collection of moneys from his employer than he and his agent must be super geniuses right?

[jayu70]

A few things I've just learned (here and reading old articles)
1. First I've heard about a possible extention for Bud, he had 2 years left at $14 mil, why allow him to interview at all.
2. When he gave up GM power to Schlenk he renegoiated his contract.
3. Bud demanded ALL his money, never heard that before. I understand he left with it all, but demand?

I agree with @mac-d regarding offsetting salaries, I think I read that back then.
I also agree with the 'impatience' of the Hawks part. Most thought he would take the Suns job, then it dragged on to the east coast to NY, then up north to Toronto, then he settled in the Middle at Milwaukee.

Here's what I gather: Bud wanted out and Ressler and TS were amenable to letting him leave.
The End.

[Jamaaliver]

I love that exactly a year later, we're all rehashing the Budenholzer departure the exact same way with the exact same people taking partisan stands.

The Hawks gave permission to Budenholzer to meet with the Suns, and would be open to allowing him to become a candidate for other head coaching openings, league sources said. Budenholzer has two years and $13 million plus left on his contract, with the Hawks headed into a full rebuilding process.

Considered one of the NBA's best tacticians, Budenholzer had been the Hawks' president of basketball operations -- until surrendering front-office control with the arrival of new GM Travis Schlenk in the spring of 2017.

ESPN -- April 2018

Related RealGM conversations:

What is ideal compensation for Bud from PHX if he wants to leave?
Breaking: Bud granted permission to talk to Suns
Will the Schlenk/Budenholzer partnership work?

[Sothron]

He's a traitor. I still can't believe they paid him to go away instead of forcing the Bucks to trade for him.

[Nathan2331]

He's a traitor. I still can't believe they paid him to go away instead of forcing the Bucks to trade for him.

That's the part that I don't get. Are teams no longer allowed to trade picks for coaches?

[macd-gm]

He's a traitor. I still can't believe they paid him to go away instead of forcing the Bucks to trade for him.

That's the part that I don't get. Are teams no longer allowed to trade picks for coaches?

They are. The Hawks just didn't want to wait until he got a job and here is the key part:

They could have fired him because they were tired of waiting!

But they didn't. Why? Because by not firing him and negotiating a buyout saved them millions of dollars.

[Atlanta Hawk Fan]

3. Bud demanded ALL his money, never heard that before. I understand he left with it all, but demand?

We may be using the word "demand" differently. From my perspective, that word means he insisted he wanted it all.

From that perspective, it is patently obvious he demanded it. Koonan said they would meet and implied Bud would be back. When they met, Bud obviously let it be known he wanted out which is also why he had asked for permission to interview elsewhere. The team graciously let him interview even though they would have blocked him. Once he decided he was leaving, he could have offered to take a discounted buyout or demanded he get everything and still be released from his contract. If he was offering to take less he would have gotten less. Only by insisting that they pay him $13M while he coaches another team could he have ended up doing exactly that.

I am not demonizing Bud for leaving but I am saying it makes me like him less than if he wanted to be part of the team long-term. I'm also not demonizing Bud for getting all the money but it strikes me that a buyout was more appropriate and so asking for all the money was greedy at a time when he was bailing on the team and it makes me like him less.

Here is my read between the lines interpretation. If the team wanted to block Bud, they would have had to keep him as their head coach. Bud didn't want to rebuild and let it be known. Ressler decided he wanted to go in another direction. Normally this is where the sides would agree on a buyout but Bud insisted he be guaranteed the full $13M so Ressler had a choice to give in and move forward or to get into a messy situation with Bud. By playing hardball, Bud ended up with the full $13M and we could move quickly on to hiring our next coach.

I'm not saying that either side took the wrong position strategically in those negotiations. A strong argument can be made the Hawks are better off having eaten money and moved on cleanly. On the other side, Bud got everything he wanted with the full $13M guarantee and the ability to move on a to an EC rival team with championship aspirations.

But the way that played out makes me like Bud less as an Atlanta fan. Still respect the heck out of him as a coach but if I were another team I would never grant him any level of GM authority and if I were a GM for another team I would be very careful about how I worded his contract given that I just saw him rake his last team over the coals.

[Nathan2331]

He's a traitor. I still can't believe they paid him to go away instead of forcing the Bucks to trade for him.

That's the part that I don't get. Are teams no longer allowed to trade picks for coaches?

They are. The Hawks just didn't want to wait until he got a job and here is the key part:

They could have fired him because they were tired of waiting!

But they didn't. Why? Because by not firing him and negotiating a buyout saved them millions of dollars.

Why not wait though? Bud was a hot commodity, i would think getting some picks would be worth the wait.

[macd-gm]

That's the part that I don't get. Are teams no longer allowed to trade picks for coaches?

They are. The Hawks just didn't want to wait until he got a job and here is the key part:

They could have fired him because they were tired of waiting!

But they didn't. Why? Because by not firing him and negotiating a buyout saved them millions of dollars.

Why not wait though? Bud was a hot commodity, i would think getting some picks would be worth the wait.

Agree but they didn't like the optics of sitting on their hands while Bud picked a team. The whole reason they let him interview is they wanted compensation but they didn't really think it through or made a big miscalculation. I'm just not sure why we are demonizing Bud for not just walking away from millions of dollars out of the kindness of his heart

[Atlanta Hawk Fan]

He's a traitor. I still can't believe they paid him to go away instead of forcing the Bucks to trade for him.

That's the part that I don't get. Are teams no longer allowed to trade picks for coaches?

They are. The Hawks just didn't want to wait until he got a job and here is the key part:

They could have fired him because they were tired of waiting!

But they didn't. Why? Because by not firing him and negotiating a buyout saved them millions of dollars.

Trading him would have saved them the most money. A buyout would have saved them the next most money. What they ended up with is neither of those but they do get an offset against money he gets from Milwaukee much as the offset that applies to any cut player (you get an offset against money they get on a new contract with another team that season under a similar concept).

[Atlanta Hawk Fan]

They are. The Hawks just didn't want to wait until he got a job and here is the key part:

They could have fired him because they were tired of waiting!

But they didn't. Why? Because by not firing him and negotiating a buyout saved them millions of dollars.

Why not wait though? Bud was a hot commodity, i would think getting some picks would be worth the wait.

Agree but they didn't like the optics of sitting on their hands while Bud picked a team. The whole reason they let him interview is they wanted compensation but they didn't really think it through or made a big miscalculation. I'm just not sure why we are demonizing Bud for not just walking away from millions of dollars out of the kindness of his heart

Where is this demonizing on Bud coming from? Bud walked away from the team but wanted to be guaranteed every penny that he would get for coaching the team. Asking for it all to be guaranteed is greedy, IMO, if you are telling the team you want to leave. That isn't demonizing but it does make me like Bud less as a fan. When someone wants to bail to go sign a new lucrative deal elsewhere with a competitor, I think they should be accommodating to make that happen. Reasonable minds can differ on that but it is my perspective.

Atlanta let him walk with no strings and allowed him immediate access to the market to negotiate with the most favorable market conditions for a FA head coach. Even delaying that permission for a month could have put out of the running for a lot of jobs.

The Hawks treated him exceptionally well. I agree they didn't like the dynamics of having to wait to hire a new coach while they tried to trade Bud or tried to negotiate him down to a reasonable buyout but they could have played hard ball with Bud and forced his hand if they wanted. They didn't choose to do so. I've said from the start I thought that was a weak play by Schlenk but I can see the logic behind it as far as wanting to push past this without any drama.

[peoriabird]

The Hawks treated him exceptionally well.

Key phrase in your statement but yet there are still some elements of contempt and mistrust of the ownership and Schlenk that still exist. And even while rehashing what actually happened, the ownership and Schlenk while being a class act, gets blamed for what ultimately happened. Meanwhile Bud continues to remain blameless and some even go as as far as making up imaginary scenarios that supports this ridiculous notion. Bottom line is what AHF alluded to...Bud screwed up the team's personnel as gm/president and didn't want to face the music when it became abundantly clear that the team was headed in the wrong direction and had to change course.

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

The Hawks treated him exceptionally well.

Key phrase in your statement but yet there are still some elements of contempt and mistrust of the ownership and Schlenk that still exist. And even while rehashing what actually happened, the ownership and Schlenk while being a class act, gets blamed for what ultimately happened. Meanwhile Bud continues to remain blameless and some even go as as far as making up imaginary scenarios that supports this ridiculous notion. Bottom line is what AHF alluded to...Bud screwed up the team's personnel as gm/president and didn't want to face the music when it became abundantly clear that the team was headed in the wrong direction and had to change course.

That is, indeed, the key phrase.

And I disagree completely.

Ressler jerked Bud around.

It's a business. It happens.

Indications are, Bud originally was given reason to expect to have a voice in the GM search process. Indications are, that didn't happen.

And I continue to believe that at mid-season, based on Bud's out-of-the-blue public comments that forced me, a skeptic at the time, to acknowledge, "Maybe just maybe he's content to be part of this run after all," there was momentum toward some kind of extension.

Backing up, yes, it made sense for Bud to renegotiate that contract when he stepped down from President/Basketball Ops. But, Ressler changed the conditions surrounding that renegotiation on whatever the day was that Schlenk walked into Ressler's office and said, "We need to tank," or words to that effect, and Ressler concurred. That completely flipped the script from where the coach with just two years left on his contract sat. It would for any mere mortal employee.

So, circling forward again to those positive ASG break comments last season, that would suggest that Bud and Ressler (and maybe Schlenk) were in the throes of a conversation about an extension after all.

Ostensibly, that eventually came to an impasse. The details at that point are difficult to decipher, again, without the benefit of mics and cameras.

Bud was not wrong to ask for whatever he thought was fair... knowing what he knows and at least some of which we don't...

And Ressler had the opportunity to reject that.

Clearly, if we think Ressler capable of looking out for his own best interests and that he was in a position to judge what was fair, it's not too much to believe then that Bud's exit compensation was fair, i.e., in the eyes of that expert and with more than anyone else to lose.

[Atlanta Hawk Fan]

If Bud had his feathers ruffled because he didn't have as much input into the future state of our GM role then that doesn't do a thing to endear him to me. He was terrible as GM and really hurt this team with his FA decisions (think Bazemore contract), his desire to keep guys like Millsap when they were pending free agents, etc. Our GM function went down the tubes when he took a big role in it and Ferry left. So him wanting to have more influence in that area wins him no sympathy points for me.

Likewise, the Hawks having chosen to pay through the nose to be able to smoothly move onto CLP and their new era doesn't make me think demanding $13M guaranteed to coach a rival team is anything less than gouging the team. Bud used the leverage he had very effectively to maximize his payout at a time when he wanted to leave the team. That is smart but why should that win him any affection from the Atlanta fan base?

The positive feelings I have towards him have everything to do what he did coaching the team during his years in Atlanta and what connection he had to the GM role and what he demanded on his way out the door are what give me a bit of sour taste to go along with it.